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When is it ethically okay?

When is it ethically justified to abort?


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I suppose if you write your own religious book declaring you are God's 21st century spokesperson you then could quote yourself as proof that is what earns God's wrath. In the Old Testament at least, God ordered lots and lots of babies killed. He also directly killed a lot of Jews.

Clearly, you believe if it is God's will that a new soul be brought into this world, he is powerless against the greater power of a woman to stop his doing so. Not a very powerful God you have if your God is weaker than any woman.

If the Bible is the standard, it can not be claimed that God is against dead. In fact, that is the only thing God has unquestionably made certain for everyone, no exceptions. God's test of a person could be entirely different than what you claim it is.

I've seen paintings depicting Jesus saying to bring the children to him. Never, not one time, was there a pregnant woman in those paintings - and those were by some of the most devote and strict Christians this world has ever known.

A lot of people say God's will is whatever they say it is. If you don't like something, then certainly God doesn't like it too.

I'm curious if you care to answer. Do you believe people have a soul that is separate and distinct from their own body in that the person as a soul will extend after dead?

Nobody should feel free to make up his own imaginations about God, death, life after death, and God's judgment of the wicked, among other issues. If people misunderstand the Bible that is their problem because God and truth will never change.
 
Nobody should feel free to make up his own imaginations about God, death, life after death, and God's judgment of the wicked, among other issues. If people misunderstand the Bible that is their problem because God and truth will never change.

Except some people do not believe in the bible or gods.
 
Except some people do not believe in the bible or gods.

And many Christians are pro choice.

The Bilble is silent about abortion even though abortions happened during Biblical times.
 
So what? Will that help wicked people like Hitler avoid God's judgment after death?

Well that's a fine Christian attitude ya got there. Very different from what The Lord preaches, as He preaches love and peace and forgiveness and "judgment is mine".

Happily, your beliefs will not be made into law here in America.
 
Not even many pro-choicers claim there is an "absolute freedom to abort under all circumstances." If you asked pro-lifers, most will not claim abortion is wrong under all circumstances either - particularly if in real terms that is to declare the mother must die for a fetus that will only survive minutes or days - or even will not be live born after birth due to know extreme birth defects.

I suspect in that situation, if those are the real facts, you would agree an abortion would not be unethical. Am I correct? Or do you claim it is unethical to save the mother's on life behalf of an "unborn human life" that can not be born alive or is so misformed it would only technically briefly survive with nothing but a brain stem of no self awareness until then?

You'd be absolutely correct. If there has been a determination that the pregnancy is high risk, or that the fetus has no reasonable hope of having a normal, productive life, both of these facts are justifications to end the fetus' life. It's still tragic, of course, but the decision is ethical imo.
 
I'm mentioning this only because it's an ethics issue: if you want to continue dialog on it, we'll have to do it in another thread (it's too far off-topic).

Just because a women (or man) does something that nearly everyone would consider insane at best or evil at worst does not mean that everyone who learns about it would automatically think less of all women (or all men).

Are you saying nearly everyone would consider that an abortion is insane or evil at worst?

I disagree.

In fact the majority of Americans polled agree that Roe should NOT overturned.

From the following:

From a January 2013 article :
By Aaron Blake January 22, 2013


It's hard to get 70 percent of Americans to agree on much of anything these days. But, for the first time, one of those things is Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion.


According to a new poll from NBC News and the Wall Street Journal, released on the law's 40th anniversary Tuesday,
fully seven in 10 Americans say they would oppose the overturning of the Supreme Court decision.

And perhaps more remarkably, 57 percent say they "feel strongly" that it should not be overturned.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...king-about-roe-v-wade/?utm_term=.4d5e0936dbd0
 
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So what? Will that help wicked people like Hitler avoid God's judgment after death?

Thanks for verifying, without doubt, that God exists. No evidence needed.

This proclamation needs to be published in every possible newspaper and magazine organizations and broadcasted on every possible radio and television network.

:doh
 
You explicitly described your prejudice in post 234, so why deny it?

It was a comment about the willfully ignorant. Specifically.

Not sure how that is a 'prejudice' but you would be correct that I dont find that a positive characteristic in a person. If you have the facts and still feel a certain way, that's fine but ignoring facts...or not producing the means to dispute them...is 'embracing personal bias without foundation" IMO. That is any person's right. But again, not a positive characteristic IMO.
 
You got it. That is the very best way to live

12. And in that day did the Lord God of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth:
13. And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die.
14. And it was revealed in mine ears by the Lord of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord God of hosts.
Isaiah 22.
 
I'm going to add to that last message. I do not see being anti-abortion and opposing welfare as a contradiction. Many people, myself included, see a price of freedom is personal responsibility. So a person believing abortion is wrong, but then also the woman has to deal with it on her own, isn't exactly a contradiction as they will claim that unless it is from rape, the woman made the choice to have unprotected sex or at least the risk of sex even if some contraceptive used - and therefore she should bear the consequences including costs, not other people.

I don't agree with that view point, but such a pro-life stance is not a self contradiction. For example from the opposite direction, I think if the woman does have the child is it her financial and time responsibility as it was her choice - and the man's fully as well, though I do not mean that as an absolute standard. Why should I pay for other people's kids instead of my own?

Interesting opinion.

Most pro-choice women won’t have an abortion, but they see the necessity for abortion being legal for a variety of women’s health risks. And of course should there be significant health issues with varying stages of the yet to be born.

The reason women have for giving birth to an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy, is more common than not, related to their moral beliefs. So now, there are those who have decided women of lesser means, who, because of their moral beliefs won’t abort (remember this includes pro-choice women) are a burden to society for exercising the right to express their moral beliefs - are being “IRRESPONSIBLE”.

Who is the definer of “sexual irresponsibility” of “each individual woman” who has an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy and chooses to go full-term OR have an abortion. Either way it’s damned if the do and damned if the don’t.

To make an impossible to know, negative, stereotypical accusation that women who have an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy, have engaged in “irresponsible sexual conduct”, is frinking shameful and absolutely an ignorant assumption. It is impossible, for the public at large, to know the life circumstances of every individual woman who conceives. We know for a fact that many women conceive while on birth control. Or that their sex partner worn a condom that failed.

By the way, women’s right to have control over their reproductive roles, which includes gestating for 9 months and giving birth OR having an abortion within the current parameters of the law - is based on Constitutional Due Process, “The Right to Privacy”, and Liberty, and self-determination.

The right to privacy is paramount. The right to privacy includes “the right to private beliefs”, which is a First Amendment right.

So condemning women for not aborting because they had sex, which produced an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy, knowing full well that they couldn’t afford to give birth, but believes it’s the moral thing to do, is a hypocritical judgment against women. This is a common criticism from pro-life advocates.

Again, women are stereotypically damned if the give birth because of their moral beliefs or damned if they believe that having an abortion is in their own best interests.

You can disagree that there is a correlation between pro-life ideology and anti-social services based on the stereotypical beliefs that all women who have an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy IS GUILTY of having irresponsible sex...whatever the term means to them as individuals. But I opine that it’s a reality.
 
12. And in that day did the Lord God of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth:
13. And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die.
14. And it was revealed in mine ears by the Lord of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord God of hosts.
Isaiah 22.

“A breeze ruffled the neat hedges of Privet Drive, which lay silent and tidy under the inky sky, the very last place you would expect astonishing things to happen. Harry Potter rolled over inside his blankets without waking up. One small hand closed on the letter beside him and he slept on, not knowing he was special, not knowing he was famous, not knowing he would be woken in a few hours' time by Mrs. Dursley's scream as she opened the front door to put out the milk bottles, nor that he would spend the next few weeks being prodded and pinched by his cousin Dudley...He couldn't know that at this very moment, people meeting in secret all over the country were holding up their glasses and saying in hushed voices: "To Harry Potter - the boy who lived!”
― J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
 
Interesting opinion.

Most pro-choice women won’t have an abortion, but they see the necessity for abortion being legal for a variety of women’s health risks. And of course should there be significant health issues with varying stages of the yet to be born.

The reason women have for giving birth to an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy, is more common than not, related to their moral beliefs. So now, there are those who have decided women of lesser means, who, because of their moral beliefs won’t abort (remember this includes pro-choice women) are a burden to society for exercising the right to express their moral beliefs - are being “IRRESPONSIBLE”.

Who is the definer of “sexual irresponsibility” of “each individual woman” who has an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy and chooses to go full-term OR have an abortion. Either way it’s damned if the do and damned if the don’t.

To make an impossible to know, negative, stereotypical accusation that women who have an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy, have engaged in “irresponsible sexual conduct”, is frinking shameful and absolutely an ignorant assumption. It is impossible, for the public at large, to know the life circumstances of every individual woman who conceives. We know for a fact that many women conceive while on birth control. Or that their sex partner worn a condom that failed.

By the way, women’s right to have control over their reproductive roles, which includes gestating for 9 months and giving birth OR having an abortion within the current parameters of the law - is based on Constitutional Due Process, “The Right to Privacy”, and Liberty, and self-determination.

The right to privacy is paramount. The right to privacy includes “the right to private beliefs”, which is a First Amendment right.

So condemning women for not aborting because they had sex, which produced an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy, knowing full well that they couldn’t afford to give birth, but believes it’s the moral thing to do, is a hypocritical judgment against women. This is a common criticism from pro-life advocates.

Again, women are stereotypically damned if the give birth because of their moral beliefs or damned if they believe that having an abortion is in their own best interests.

You can disagree that there is a correlation between pro-life ideology and anti-social services based on the stereotypical beliefs that all women who have an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy IS GUILTY of having irresponsible sex...whatever the term means to them as individuals. But I opine that it’s a reality.

I agree with all of that.

How I have evolved (changed perspective) is I don't see prolifers (some exceptions) as evil, wanting to treat women like breeding cattle, or a certain partisan or political stance on other issues. I don't think those who oppose welfare to poor families inherently means letting children suffer. Many, if not most, prolifers will say that if the woman gives up a child at birth, the government should pay every dollar to care for this child in foster care, particularly if severely birth defected meaning adoption is not going to happen.

Most prolifers want that severely defective baby born - and they want to government to pay for it for its entire life, even if for decades, rather than abortion. While I think it should be aborted including so we don't have to pay for it lifelong. In that, aren't I a prochoicer more against spending money on needy children than prolifers are? The answer is yes IF a fetus is a human baby of equal rights as my own and no IF the fetus is not. All topics and issues - no matter how far out they are stretched, always come back to that 1 core difference of opinion of what is a fetus in terms of human rights? While that can be measured against a woman's rights in that debate, nearly all will say if the fetus will kill the mother, they approve of abortion. It really is about "what are the rights - if any - of the fetus?"

It gets complicated, since I do believe the government could outlaw (criminalize) certain conduct of a pregnant woman that is known will cause the fetus to be born severely and permanently disabled IF she is going to carry the pregnancy to birth. Yet in that, aren't I putting the fetus's rights over the rights of that woman? So the issues aren't always as cleanly divided as they may seem.

The claim she has to have the baby because she was "irresponsible" is a strange sense of punishment - the same as those who claim gays deserve AIDS for their sexual irresponsibility., Sexual sins remains high not only within religions but with people in general, religious or not. Prolife's ideology is based upon 1 - only 1 - claim. That a fetus is a human baby and therefore entitled to life the same as you and I. Prochoice says no. Nearly all other topics on abortion rights are just fluff.
 
It was a comment about the willfully ignorant. Specifically.

Not sure how that is a 'prejudice' but you would be correct that I dont find that a positive characteristic in a person. If you have the facts and still feel a certain way, that's fine but ignoring facts...or not producing the means to dispute them...is 'embracing personal bias without foundation" IMO. That is any person's right. But again, not a positive characteristic IMO.

So you were saying that all persons who are pro-life are automatically willfully ignorant. That is not a proven "fact," and I disagree with it.
 
So you were saying that all persons who are pro-life are automatically willfully ignorant. That is not a proven "fact," and I disagree with it.

We were discussing the frequency of viable fetuses being electively aborted. Unless you can prove otherwise, ignoring that fact that none occur is willful ignorance. If you are pro-choice and choose not to believe it, the same would apply.
 
“A breeze ruffled the neat hedges of Privet Drive, which lay silent and tidy under the inky sky, the very last place you would expect astonishing things to happen. Harry Potter rolled over inside his blankets without waking up. One small hand closed on the letter beside him and he slept on, not knowing he was special, not knowing he was famous, not knowing he would be woken in a few hours' time by Mrs. Dursley's scream as she opened the front door to put out the milk bottles, nor that he would spend the next few weeks being prodded and pinched by his cousin Dudley...He couldn't know that at this very moment, people meeting in secret all over the country were holding up their glasses and saying in hushed voices: "To Harry Potter - the boy who lived!”
― J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone

Modern Greek mythology?
 
12. And in that day did the Lord God of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth:
13. And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die.
14. And it was revealed in mine ears by the Lord of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord God of hosts.
Isaiah 22.

Holy Roman Empire mythology?
 
I don't doubt that figure, Minnie, but nothing I said in the post you quoted had anything to do with Roe.

So you think Americans would not want to overturn a SC decision about abortion if they thought abortion was an insane/evil at worst act.
 
So you think Americans would not want to overturn a SC decision about abortion if they thought abortion was an insane/evil at worst act.

Even I don't think it's insane/evil under every circumstance.

Also, overturning Roe or keeping it aren't the only two possibilities. The SC could, in theory, add more restrictions.
 
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