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How long did it take you to develop your current stance on abortion? Give us your reasons

nthasama said:
I am very prolife, but I don't think you should wait until the mother is about to die. I can't tell you when it should be exactly, because I am not a doctor, and it depends on the circumstance. I think that everything possible should be done first to try and save both the mother and the baby, but I think that when a competent medical profession decides that continuing the pregnancy is to risky for the mother abortion/early delivery should become an option.
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You see the problem is that all pregnancy causes risk to the mother.

Really good access to medical care ( an experienced doctor that knows you and is accessible), strong social support, and having a secure living environment helps mitigate some of the potential harm. But you have to ask what do the women who chose abortion usually lack? Those very things.

I went ahead with my pregnancy knowing that I had a good income, strong social resoources, a job that probably would keep my position open for me if I was out >12 weeks. I had a 3 month financial cush in case of emergency. How many women who chose abortion have that?

As it was, that financial cush for three months evaporated in less that three months. I was out for nearly 6 months and was not prepared for the COBRA payments that were $800-1000 a month(24 years ago). I went deeply in debt before the baby arrived. But I knew I had to keep my private health care!!!!
 
Acadia said:
Just wondering if this applies to murder?
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Well, I oppose murder but not for religious reasons. To me what makes a person a person and what makes me value them as an existing entity is the presence of a mind. Murder is the extinguishing of a mind. But until a brain has developed enough for a mind to emerge there is no person as far as I am concerned. I couldn’t care less about DNA or heart beats or what organs something has. But something that has a mind has a right to exist as far as I am concerned.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
Well, I oppose murder but not for religious reasons. To me what makes a person a person and what makes me value them as an existing entity is the presence of a mind. Murder is the extinguishing of a mind. But until a brain has developed enough for a mind to emerge there is no person as far as I am concerned. I couldn’t care less about DNA or heart beats or what organs something has. But something that has a mind has a right to exist as far as I am concerned.
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Thanks for your thoughtful answer.
 
MrWonka said:
1/3rd of all pregnancies in the United States end in Miscarriage. Often times before the women even realizes she's pregnant.

Equating Abortion to Murder is like saying that eating walnuts equates to deforestation.
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My understanding is that miscarriages aren't on purpose. Therefore not murder. But 1/3 of all pregnancies? That's a huge number of women. I'll bet many of them would love to adopt those babies headed for abortion.
 
Removable Mind said:
You can “opine” abortion is murder until the Pope stops wearing dresses. If it was or is, there are no convictions. Why is that?

So what that there have been 60 million abortions performed? There’s been no proven negative outcomes resulting from abortions at anytime in our nation’s history in any measurable, meaningful way. I would opine that there’s been more benefits than losses by a wide margin.
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Me, too. I also think there are benefits from abortion; lower crime rates, less costs for welfare, less prison crowding, etc. On all of these issues Margaret Sanger was correct. But just cause there are some benefits don't mean it ain't murder.
 
Waddy said:
Me, too. I also think there are benefits from abortion; lower crime rates, less costs for welfare, less prison crowding, etc. On all of these issues Margaret Sanger was correct. But just cause there are some benefits don't mean it ain't murder.
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We’d all love to see the laws that make abortion murder. What are the State conviction rates for women who have had an abortion in the last 200 years?

Margaret Sanger is dead. 2/3rds of the people don’t know who their town mayors are. How is Sanger’s existence relevant to abortion today?
 
Removable Mind said:
We’d all love to see the laws that make abortion murder. What are the State conviction rates for women who have had an abortion in the last 200 years?

Margaret Sanger is dead. 2/3rds of the people don’t know who their town mayors are. How is Sanger’s existence relevant to abortion today?
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The law used to consider it murder, but not since Roe. I am entitled to call it anything I want. I consider it murder. However, I support a woman's right to murder the child she's carrying. You are entitled to disagree. Considering Margaret Sanger's ideas are the foundation of the modern pro-abortion movement, I'd say she's still very relevant.
 
Waddy said:
The law used to consider it murder, but not since Roe. I am entitled to call it anything I want. I consider it murder. However, I support a woman's right to murder the child she's carrying. You are entitled to disagree. Considering Margaret Sanger's ideas are the foundation of the modern pro-abortion movement, I'd say she's still very relevant.
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Yes, you have the right to be among a minority who also believe that abortion is murder. Your opinion is noted, but for the record, it’s not congruent with the laws of the land.

I think that you have a very skewed perception of what Sanger believed and didn’t believe. And of course you have that right as well.
 
Waddy said:
The law used to consider it murder, but not since Roe. I am entitled to call it anything I want. I consider it murder. However, I support a woman's right to murder the child she's carrying. You are entitled to disagree. Considering Margaret Sanger's ideas are the foundation of the modern pro-abortion movement, I'd say she's still very relevant.
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Historically it was never considered murder. That's incorrect.

And since there are many good reasons to support abortion and no negative effects on society, it's easy to forget about her. Do we completely dismiss the Constitution because some of the FF's kept slaves, slept with (raped) slaves?
 
ModerationNow! said:
I started out against abortion in the late 80s and early 90s, oddly at a time when I wasn't really well versed in politics, and considered myself a Democrat.

There are examples given of women who have life threatening health concerns that require an abortion, or who are rape victims, who would be otherwise forced to have a child that was born of rape. But I realized that those were representative of only a tiny minority of abortion cases, and that the vast majority are actually more related to inconvenience.

Oddly though, as the late 90s rolled around, and I became more supportive of republicans, I still managed to change my abortion opposition, to reluctant support. I listened more closely to both side's arguments and realized that, despite the concern with killing a developing life, it just still 'seemed' wrong for govt to FORCE a woman to go through a major event like birth, without any input.

To be honest, there are also some pragmatic reasons, such as the reality that forcing a woman to become a mother, may not create a good environment for the child, if she decided not to adopt it out. Also, due to decreasing resources worldwide, we need less humans on earth, not more!

I have to say though, even though I'm a man, and will never personally have to make that decision, it was still a tough call, which means it must really be tough for women!
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I've been pro-choice since high school. That is one of the few issues I have not flipped on in the nearly 40 years since. The other is my hatred for Russia--although I had a glimmer of hope for them in the early 90's. But, something went very wrong.

Abortion is actually the best option for some. And, they should have that choice.
 
When I first learned about abortion I thought it was murder, and that was that.

During the War in Vietnam support for abortion sort of went along with opposition to the War in Vietnam, so I went along, but not enthusiastically. For me the issue was controlling the growth in the world's population. I never really cared about "a woman's right to choose." Nor did I care about "the right to life," because I was and I am an enthusiast for capital punishment.

I opposed Roe vs Wade, on principle, because I thought it was a flimsy piece of legal reasoning. Then I read Freakonomics. That book attributes the decline in the rate of violent crime after 1992 to the Roe decision. It argued that the same kind of females most likely to have abortions are most likely to give birth to boy babies that grow up to become violent criminals. That convinced me that the Roe decision was a good decision from a eugenic standpoint.

Most Americans do not want Roe to be overturned. If it is, that will probably hurt the Republicans. For that reason I sort of want it to be overturned. If Roe is overturned, that will shake things up quite a bit. That will be fun to watch.

I have always been ambivalent about abortion. It is a gruesome operation, but it reduces the birth rate of the biologically inferior.
 
SmartCat said:
I have always been ambivalent about abortion. It is a gruesome operation, but it reduces the birth rate of the biologically inferior.
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Nobody (except maybe one poster here) is enthusiastic about abortion. No one "likes" abortion. It's recognized as a necessity for some women, based on their own lives.

As for it being a gruesome operation, in 97.5% of all abortions it consists of painlessly flushing a pea-sized unborn from the womb. The rare later ones are of medical necessity and are also painless....anesthetic injection is used.

I think your reply was very thoughtful. And there are loads of studies that show that kids born into socio-economically challenging circumstances are at higher risk of not finishing school, getting higher educations, and becoming involved in criminal activity.
 
MrWonka said:
You should maybe learn what the word inconvenience means before you use it. Describing a pregnancy as inconvenient means you either don't know what the word means or don't understand pregnancy.
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Maybe you should learn to comprehend what you read. I stated that I beleive there are too many abortions because some feel having a child would inconvenient the mother for various reasons. Doesn't matter if I think it is right or wrong...abortions do happen for those reasons.

in·con·ven·ient
/ˌinkənˈvēnyənt/
adjective

1.
causing trouble, difficulties, or discomfort:
 
straykatz said:
Maybe you should learn to comprehend what you read. I stated that I believe there are too many abortions because some feel having a child would inconvenient the mother for various reasons. Doesn't matter if I think it is right or wrong...abortions do happen for those reasons.

in·con·ven·ient
/ˌinkənˈvēnyənt/
adjective

1.
causing trouble, difficulties, or discomfort:
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An inconvenience is having to sit in the middle seat on a cross-country flight for a few hours. A pregnancy is a major ****ing ordeal that lasts almost an entire year, it causes daily sickness, permanently deforms your body, and can even kill you. It is a radical and life-changing experience for any woman that goes through it. For a child, you actually want it can bring you great joy, but for a child, you didn't want it's is incredibly traumatic.

Calling pregnancy an inconvenience is like calling a 20 car pile up a fender bender. That's like calling D-Day a light tussle.
 
straykatz said:
Maybe you should learn to comprehend what you read. I stated that I beleive there are too many abortions because some feel having a child would inconvenient the mother for various reasons. Doesn't matter if I think it is right or wrong...abortions do happen for those reasons.

in·con·ven·ient
/ˌinkənˈvēnyənt/
adjective

1.
causing trouble, difficulties, or discomfort:
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Yeah, so do you/would you teach your kids that finishing high school is a "convenience?" Going to college or trade school is a "convenience?" Showing up at your job everyday, and not puking, is a "convenience?" Not losing your job because you are too sick to go in is a "convenience?" Being well enough and focused enough to develop a job into a real career is a "convenience?" Paying all your bills and not taking public assistance to support a child is a "convenience?" Being able to support the family you have and live in a safe, secure neighborhood is a "convenience?"

Well, maybe you consider your own life a string of "conveniences" but I value mine more and I believe most other people do too.

Can you find, in any of those lists that show why women have abortions, "convenience" listed? I dont think so. For you to sum up a woman's life as just a bunch of conveniences is insulting.
 
Lursa said:
You are doing what I see most pro-life supporters do: just try not to acknowledge that there is no equal/fair solution and to not have to commit to the realities of it.

It is a tough issue with no easy answers. Yet many try to just avoid thinking about the realities and impacts on those who know and suffer from those realities and impacts.
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You're right, there is no perfectly fair solution. I just don't think that killing some for the good of others is ever an ok solution.


Lursa said:
Most pro-life supporters want to claim they value the born and unborn equally, when that is not possible legally. It cant be done. And IMO, it cant be done ethically either.
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Why do you feel that it is not possible to value born and unborn equally?
 
Lursa said:
Because in this case, you are comparing that % of survival to the amount of risk the woman faces with her own life and future...which are already 100%.

It is worth it to damage or sacrifice a woman's future on the approx. 25% statistical risk that that might be wasted?
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In the vast majority of pregnancies a woman does not have a 100% chance of dying. If in her case she does have a 100% chance of dying then I think she should be able to get an abortion.
 
Lursa said:
Nobody (except maybe one poster here) is enthusiastic about abortion. No one "likes" abortion. It's recognized as a necessity for some women, based on their own lives.

As for it being a gruesome operation, in 97.5% of all abortions it consists of painlessly flushing a pea-sized unborn from the womb. The rare later ones are of medical necessity and are also painless....anesthetic injection is used.

I think your reply was very thoughtful. And there are loads of studies that show that kids born into socio-economically challenging circumstances are at higher risk of not finishing school, getting higher educations, and becoming involved in criminal activity.
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Yet, I have seen numerous kids born into horrific poverty that somehow their parents figure out how to raise them and they turn out OK. Where there's a will there's a way.
 
MrWonka said:
An inconvenience is having to sit in the middle seat on a cross-country flight for a few hours. A pregnancy is a major ****ing ordeal that lasts almost an entire year, it causes daily sickness, permanently deforms your body, and can even kill you. It is a radical and life-changing experience for any woman that goes through it. For a child, you actually want it can bring you great joy, but for a child, you didn't want it's is incredibly traumatic.

Calling pregnancy an inconvenience is like calling a 20 car pile up a fender bender. That's like calling D-Day a light tussle.
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Why you trying to school me? I did not say "I" believe it to be an inconvenience.....you seem to be hung up on 1 word instead of my whole comment. Bottom line is there ARE women who get abortions because it is more convenient than the alternative.
 
Lursa said:
Yeah, so do you/would you teach your kids that finishing high school is a "convenience?" Going to college or trade school is a "convenience?" Showing up at your job everyday, and not puking, is a "convenience?" Not losing your job because you are too sick to go in is a "convenience?" Being well enough and focused enough to develop a job into a real career is a "convenience?" Paying all your bills and not taking public assistance to support a child is a "convenience?" Being able to support the family you have and live in a safe, secure neighborhood is a "convenience?"

Well, maybe you consider your own life a string of "conveniences" but I value mine more and I believe most other people do too.

Can you find, in any of those lists that show why women have abortions, "convenience" listed? I dont think so. For you to sum up a woman's life as just a bunch of conveniences is insulting.
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Yes I value mine and I also value the right to choose. That doesn't mean I am going to pretend that abortions of convenience do not happen.
 
nthasama said:
You're right, there is no perfectly fair solution. I just don't think that killing some for the good of others is ever an ok solution.
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For me a life is much more than breathing.

I believe in quality of life over quantity. The woman is here, contributing to society, may have dependents and obligations that are her responsibility. OTOH, the unborn may not even survive to be born or may be born with mental/physical defects.

Why do you feel that it is not possible to value born and unborn equally?
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It can be at an individual personal level but not in any practical way. Not legally.
 
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