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Clarifying Time Line - Conception to Birth - DRAW THE LINE OF LIFE

MrWonderful said:
Seems to me I recall a lot of people being convicted of murder who are serving time in prisons.
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Murder is illegal, abortion is not.



At some time in the future, after further enlightenment, abortion of perfectly healthy women who have not been raped, will surely be outlawed.
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Not in my country, thank God.
 
The tide is running the other way

MrWonderful said:
…

At some time in the future, after further enlightenment, abortion of perfectly healthy women who have not been raped, will surely be outlawed.
Killing for economic reasons is heinous, no matter how you try to paint it.
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The trend of law in the US has been the other way - an expansion of rights, for instance, the right to own property, the franchise, to public accommodations, to impartial justice, entering into contracts. Discrimination based upon race, gender, religion, sexual orientation & so on have been banned @ the federal level, & that usually spills into the state judiciary as well.
 
Re: The tide is running the other way

southwest88 said:
The trend of law in the US has been the other way - an expansion of rights, for instance, the right to own property, the franchise, to public accommodations, to impartial justice, entering into contracts. Discrimination based upon race, gender, religion, sexual orientation & so on have been banned @ the federal level, & that usually spills into the state judiciary as well.
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Rights of fathers, rights of four grandparents, rights to LIFE of babies will be expanded, so that they are not butchered in late term abortions, just for starters.

Kermit Gosnell had 46 babies' bodies in his clinic refrigerator after botched abortions delivered live babies which he murdered after they were delivered alive.
He's in prison for "a woman's right to choose."
 
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Re: The tide is running the other way

Who on the prochoice side supports Gosnell?
 
Technology may lift all boats

MrWonderful said:
Rights of fathers, rights of four grandparents, rights to LIFE of babies will be expanded, so that they are not butchered in late term abortions, just for starters.

Kermit Gosnell had 46 babies' bodies in his clinic refrigerator after botched abortions delivered live babies which he murdered after they were delivered alive.
He's in prison for "a woman's right to choose."
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Under Roe v. Wade, it's a fetus that's aborted. & so under Roe, it's not murder - that's explicit in the ruling. & the majority of abortions take place early in the pregnancy. Late-term abortions are rare, as noted earlier in this thread. Roe did as well as could be expected, in balancing the rights of the pregnant woman & the state - by setting up fetal viability as the ruling criterion, & allowing state regulation of abortion on a sliding scale.

What might happen - if medical science continues to progress - is that we might be able to extract an early fetus & transplant it to a host uterus - possibly a human, eventually (if we can understand all the homeostasis balancing acts going on in the uterus) possibly in an artificial uterus. If that becomes common & the cost is reasonable, then the viability criterion could become unnecessary, except for those holding religious beliefs that don't allow that degree of medical intervention.

Gosnell isn't the poster boy for pro-choice. He was clearly operating beyond the pale; if he delivered viable babies, & then killed them, then he was guilty of murder - if that's what happened.
 
Re: Technology may lift all boats

Norma McCorvey, who brought suit in Roe v. Wade, abandoned her "pro-choice" position and defended unborn babies' right to life until the day she died.
Norma McCorvey recognized the horrific and evil mistake she made and tried to undo it.

Women who get abortions have higher incidences of clinical depression, higher incidences of suicide, higher incidences of alcoholism and smoking and drug addiction.

How can a woman kill the beating heart inside her after six weeks? Someone explain that. When someone's heart stops, they are declared dead.
Why aren't they declared alive when it starts?
 
Re: Technology may lift all boats

MrWonderful said:
Women who get abortions have higher incidences of clinical depression, higher incidences of suicide, higher incidences of alcoholism and smoking and drug addiction.
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This is a load of bovine excrement.

Conclusions
In the three years after terminating a pregnancy, women tended to cope well emotionally. Women overwhelmingly felt abortion was the right decision in both the short-term and over three years, and the intensity of emotions and frequency of thinking about the abortion declined over time. Yet high coping and resilience were not observed among all individuals: those with more intended pregnancies and difficulty making the abortion decision experienced poorer emotional outcomes after an abortion. Individualized counseling for women having difficulty with the abortion decision might help improve their emotional welfare over time [41]. Efforts to combat stigma may also support the emotional well-being of women terminating pregnancies.

Decision Rightness and Emotional Responses to Abortion in the United States: A Longitudinal Study
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This again?

MrWonderful said:
Norma McCorvey, who brought suit in Roe v. Wade, abandoned her "pro-choice" position and defended unborn babies' right to life until the day she died.
Norma McCorvey recognized the horrific and evil mistake she made and tried to undo it.

Women who get abortions have higher incidences of clinical depression, higher incidences of suicide, higher incidences of alcoholism and smoking and drug addiction.

How can a woman kill the beating heart inside her after six weeks? Someone explain that. When someone's heart stops, they are declared dead.
Why aren't they declared alive when it starts?
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Nah, we've already covered this in your thread on DP - Abortion is MUCH MORE DANGEROUS Than Childbirth - #17, I think it is.

& Norma McCorvey went back to the Supreme Court, to present evidence that abortion was dangerous to the pregnant woman. The court turned her down, & ruled that the issue was moot. McCorvey was all over the map - a person more to be sympathized with than the standard-bearer of a new crusade on the behalf of fetuses.
 
MrWonderful said:
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CONCEPTION________________________________________________________BIRTH


Draw a vertical mark on the above time line showing where, in YOUR opinion, there is a person, a human to the right side of the mark you drew, and NOT a person, NOT a human to the left side of your mark.

Now explain to the very second how immediately left of your mark, it is NOT human, but a nanosecond later, it IS human, a real person.

This is an electrifying concept, this precise time you choose.

Medical doctors, scientists, define death as when a human heart stops beating permanently.
Is not the other side of this determination when a human STARTS beating permanently?

What would you say of a man who DEMANDED that his mistress abort their child? Wouldn't you be against it? Steve McQueen MADE Ali McGraw get an abortion when she wanted to have their baby. What a louse McQueen was.

The opposite of that situation is when a man begs his mistress to have their child, and instead she walks into the abortion clinic and has it murdered.
My brother was a security guard and he saw such men, crying, begging for their children. The fathers have no rights, whether they lose their child, or whether they pay child support for 18 years. No "CHOICE." Neither do 4 grandparents have any choice, any say-so.

Most crucial of all, the baby itself has no CHOICE. And it is NOT his mother's body that is being murdered. It is the baby's body. Unique DNA.

"Before you were conceived in the womb, I knew you." - The Holy Bible
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it is a human from conception.
it is not a person until birth.....
 
Specifying the charges

MrWonderful said:
…

Kermit Gosnell had 46 babies' bodies in his clinic refrigerator after botched abortions delivered live babies which he murdered after they were delivered alive.
He's in prison for "a woman's right to choose."
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Yes, & that's why he's in prison, serving a life sentence without parole +30 years, I believe it is. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Gosnell

"In 2011, Gosnell and various co-defendant employees were charged with eight counts of murder, 24 felony counts of performing illegal abortions beyond the state of Pennsylvania's 24-week time limit, and 227 misdemeanor counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law. The murder charges related to an adult patient, Karnamaya Mongar, who died following an abortion procedure, and seven newborns said to have been killed by having their spinal cords severed with scissors after being born alive during attempted abortions. In May 2013, Gosnell was convicted of first degree murder in the deaths of three of the infants and involuntary manslaughter in the death of Karnamaya Mongar. Gosnell was also convicted of 21 felony counts of illegal late-term abortion, and 211 counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law. After his conviction, Gosnell waived his right to appeal in exchange for an agreement not to seek the death penalty. He was sentenced instead to life in prison without the possibility of parole.[9][10]"

(My emphasis - more @ the URL - But not for the faint of heart)

He is not in prison waiting for God because of a woman's right to choose. If he had performed the abortions within the framework of Roe v. Wade, he would have been fine, legally.
 
MrWonderful said:
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
CONCEPTION________________________________________________________BIRTH


Draw a vertical mark on the above time line showing where, in YOUR opinion, there is a person, a human to the right side of the mark you drew, and NOT a person, NOT a human to the left side of your mark.

Now explain to the very second how immediately left of your mark, it is NOT human, but a nanosecond later, it IS human, a real person.

This is an electrifying concept, this precise time you choose.

Medical doctors, scientists, define death as when a human heart stops beating permanently.
Is not the other side of this determination when a human STARTS beating permanently?

What would you say of a man who DEMANDED that his mistress abort their child? Wouldn't you be against it? Steve McQueen MADE Ali McGraw get an abortion when she wanted to have their baby. What a louse McQueen was.

The opposite of that situation is when a man begs his mistress to have their child, and instead she walks into the abortion clinic and has it murdered.
My brother was a security guard and he saw such men, crying, begging for their children. The fathers have no rights, whether they lose their child, or whether they pay child support for 18 years. No "CHOICE." Neither do 4 grandparents have any choice, any say-so.

Most crucial of all, the baby itself has no CHOICE. And it is NOT his mother's body that is being murdered. It is the baby's body. Unique DNA.

"Before you were conceived in the womb, I knew you." - The Holy Bible
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
CONCEPTION_______________________________________________________l_BIRTH
 
calamity said:
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
CONCEPTION_______________________________________________________l_BIRTH
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Moving backward, from the moment of birth, second by second, JUSTIFY, as I requested, the exact second you chose. I will say that many thousands of perfectly healthy humans are alive today who were delivered WELL BEFORE your red line. Hundreds of thousands. You would deny all of them life? Humanity?

Now explain to the very second how immediately left of your mark, it is NOT human, but a nanosecond later, it IS human, a real person.
 
MrWonderful said:
Moving backward, from the moment of birth, second by second, JUSTIFY, as I requested, the exact second you chose. I will say that many thousands of perfectly healthy humans are alive today who were delivered WELL BEFORE your red line. Hundreds of thousands. You would deny all of them life? Humanity?

Now explain to the very second how immediately left of your mark, it is NOT human, but a nanosecond later, it IS human, a real person.
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I never knew a live born person who was delivered be delivered before birth.
 
MrWonderful said:
Moving backward, from the moment of birth, second by second, JUSTIFY, as I requested, the exact second you chose. I will say that many thousands of perfectly healthy humans are alive today who were delivered WELL BEFORE your red line. Hundreds of thousands. You would deny all of them life? Humanity?

Now explain to the very second how immediately left of your mark, it is NOT human, but a nanosecond later, it IS human, a real person.
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I don't care what you think.
 
calamity said:
I don't care what you think.
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Is that why you return again and again to make your claims? Because you "don't care"?

Murderers "don't care" about the feelings and lives and families of their victims, only about themselves, these murderers.
 
MrWonderful said:
You never knew a lot of things.
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Born people are not born before live birth.
Even the Supreme Court took that into concideration when they decided Roe.

From Roe part IX

There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live' birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. [Footnote 56] It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. [Footnote 57] It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family. [Footnote 58]
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MrWonderful said:
Is that why you return again and again to make your claims? Because you "don't care"?

Murderers "don't care" about the feelings and lives and families of their victims, only about themselves, these murderers.
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lol...read my post again.
 
It seems to be settled law

MrWonderful said:
Moving backward, from the moment of birth, second by second, JUSTIFY, as I requested, the exact second you chose. I will say that many thousands of perfectly healthy humans are alive today who were delivered WELL BEFORE your red line. Hundreds of thousands. You would deny all of them life? Humanity?

Now explain to the very second how immediately left of your mark, it is NOT human, but a nanosecond later, it IS human, a real person.
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TMK, Roe v. Wade never looked @ whether the fetus is human or not - that wasn't the question. The court found that under privacy, a pregnant woman has a right to a medical procedure, abortion. They put in a schedule (the 1st trimester) for when it was a purely medical decision, between the woman & her doctor. For when the state can begin to regulate the procedure (2nd trimester). & for when the state can prohibit the procedure, except for the life or health of the woman (3rd trimester).

The Supreme Court did their best to balance the rights of the woman & the role of the state in protecting the potential of life.

If you disagree, you're free to agitate for changes or a reversal of Roe. But it's a tough campaign, the Supreme Court rarely reverses itself completely. & the US public doesn't seem passionate about changing the law either - it's been, what? 45 years?
 
MrWonderful said:
Moving backward, from the moment of birth, second by second, JUSTIFY, as I requested, the exact second you chose. I will say that many thousands of perfectly healthy humans are alive today who were delivered WELL BEFORE your red line. Hundreds of thousands. You would deny all of them life? Humanity?

Now explain to the very second how immediately left of your mark, it is NOT human, but a nanosecond later, it IS human, a real person.
Click to expand...
Right before for birth it is HUMAN, just not a person. WHo in the hell is saying before birth the fetus is not human. Nobody I know of.

Person is a legal term.....so born and separated from the mothers physiology.
 
year2late said:
Right before for birth it is HUMAN, just not a person. WHo in the hell is saying before birth the fetus is not human. Nobody I know of.

Person is a legal term.....so born and separated from the mothers physiology.
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Yup, and IMO, completely justified as such.

"Before birth, the unborn has no rights that can be separated from the mother (physically, legally, ethically, practically). It's a dependency that truly demonstrates that it is not equal.

They do not have a single right that they can exercise independently."
 
Kal'Stang said:
Doesn't matter what my opinion is. Constitutionally speaking no one has any Rights until they are born.
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I'm not so sure that is technically true. If a pregnant woman and her baby are killed the perpetrator can be charged in both. That is a legal recognition of personhood and depriving that person of their rights. I always say the difference between a baby and a fetus is one is wanted and one is not.
 
Re: Technology may lift all boats

MrWonderful said:
Norma McCorvey, who brought suit in Roe v. Wade, abandoned her "pro-choice" position and defended unborn babies' right to life until the day she died.
Norma McCorvey recognized the horrific and evil mistake she made and tried to undo it.

Women who get abortions have higher incidences of clinical depression, higher incidences of suicide, higher incidences of alcoholism and smoking and drug addiction.

How can a woman kill the beating heart inside her after six weeks? Someone explain that. When someone's heart stops, they are declared dead.
Why aren't they declared alive when it starts?
Click to expand...

Well, if someone isn't breathing are they declared dead? I believe it takes more than a beating heart to be a living being.

Genesis 2:7 says that God breathed into man's nostrils and gave him the breath of life and THAT'S when man became a living being. That's what I believe, too.

Legally, a fetus is not considered a 'person' until they are born and no longer dependent on the body of another living being to survive. That jives with my belief.

So who are you to say my belief is wrong?
 
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