'' You are selfish because you don't have kids '

Do you agree with '' You are selfish ,you don't have kids ' ? Maybe some women dont even have to have a kid ,give birth to kids in order to learn how to be self sacrificing ,emotional ,compassionate etc.And let me say loving your own kids does not mean you are not selfish ,you gave birth to them ,they share the same DNA as you.would you be able to dedicate yourself to an adopted kid ?loving your kid is not a virtue.There are some exceptions of course ,miserable moms ...but they never make the rule.

Instinctively you love your kids and all women have this instinct!

The decision not to have kids isn't necessarily selfish. But if a woman has several abortions in order to avoid motherhood, yeah I could see how she might be a selfish person, but she's probably more of an irresponsible person.

To comment on the overall Western trend of women not having kids- that I do think is the result of selfishness inherent in the current culture.

truthatallcost said:

The decision not to have kids isn't necessarily selfish. But if a woman has several abortions in order to avoid motherhood, yeah I could see how she might be a selfish person, but she's probably more of an irresponsible person.

To comment on the overall Western trend of women not having kids- that I do think is the result of selfishness inherent in the current culture.

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I believe having kids is selfish ,truth .I began to think this way after seeing lots of selfish stupid women who think 'giving birth is the most important thing in the world and you are not really a woman if you dont have one' .stupid women should not have kids!

My Brother told me about three decades ago "We decided not to have kids, we are too selfish, we cant do that to a kid".

I respected him more after that.

Medusa said:

Do you agree with '' You are selfish ,you don't have kids ' ? Maybe some women dont even have to have a kid ,give birth to kids in order to learn how to be self sacrificing ,emotional ,compassionate etc.And let me say loving your own kids does not mean you are not selfish ,you gave birth to them ,they share the same DNA as you.would you be able to dedicate yourself to an adopted kid ?loving your kid is not a virtue.There are some exceptions of course ,miserable moms ...but they never make the rule.

Instinctively you love your kids and all women have this instinct!

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I am not a woman and I think the topic is about women so I didn't vote.

That said, I was in no way prepared to be a parent at the age when that question was before me.

Being selfish was a part of that equation, but along with that were levels of maturity, responsibility and all the rest that parenting requires.

Recognizing my own deficiencies was not exclusively being selfish, but it included being selfish.

Sometimes the decision not to have kids isn't a decision at all. That doesn't make a woman less....

Quite the opposite. Having kids is one of the most selfish things you can do and I say that as a father of two.

Medusa said:

Do you agree with '' You are selfish ,you don't have kids ' ? Maybe some women dont even have to have a kid ,give birth to kids in order to learn how to be self sacrificing ,emotional ,compassionate etc.And let me say loving your own kids does not mean you are not selfish ,you gave birth to them ,they share the same DNA as you.would you be able to dedicate yourself to an adopted kid ?loving your kid is not a virtue.There are some exceptions of course ,miserable moms ...but they never make the rule.

Instinctively you love your kids and all women have this instinct!

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Mothers abandoning their babies in trash cans would say otherwise. A vast majority do, I agree, but as a blanket statement, it is false. To include it, especially right after noting that there are exception, is just poor form.

I assume that those women who can not have kids get left out of that sentiment, although I do not think I have ever heard such a statement said in the US in my lifetime.

Not all women are cracked up to be good mothers. The ones who recognize that fact that they specifically are not, are the selfless ones. They do not have a child and then subject them to the misery of their own inability.

Everyone is selfish, kids or not. It is a matter of self preservation inherent in all animals. Having children can be consider selfish along these lines but, so can NOT having them....the entire concept is a societal fabrication.

Skeptic Bob said:

Quite the opposite. Having kids is one of the most selfish things you can do and I say that as a father of two.

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Agreed. And the work required reflects our dedication to self-service. Of course there's a lot of other things involved, but to deny the self-satisfying aspect of it is foolishness.

humbolt said:

Agreed. And the work required reflects our dedication to self-service. Of course there's a lot of other things involved, but to deny the self-satisfying aspect of it is foolishness.

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"Self satisfying" is not the same as being selfish. Without this particular trait then the species would soon go extinct.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...h-vs-self-ish-whats-the-really-big-difference

Old Trapper said:

"Self satisfying" is not the same as being selfish. Without this particular trait then the species would soon go extinct.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...h-vs-self-ish-whats-the-really-big-difference

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Haven't read the link, but you're probably correct. The notion, however badly expressed, is that to some degree the focus on "self" is a central element of having children. It's not a completely self-sacrificial enterprise. They may not be the same thing, but they are related and live in the same house.

If you're the kind of person who does not want to be a parent, why would anyone want to push you into it? How is that fair to the unwanted child?

If anything, this kind of sentiment comes FROM a selfish person, usually a parent who either wants to be a grandparent or wants validation for their own decisions.

SELFISHNESS IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF BEING ALIVE. You are selfish if you feed your face, for example (why shouldn't someone else have your food, if you are unselfish?). Evolution has basically weeded-out most of the genes leading to fatal unselfishness. The surviving genes definitely promote selfishness, so much so that a whole book got written about it. And that selfishness includes propagating genes to the next generation.

THAT SAID, we now need to consider the two major reproductive strategies, often labeled "K" and "R". Pure R-strategists basically have hordes of offspring, and do nothing to care for them, and so most will die before they become old enough to reproduce (often they become food for other life-forms). Extremely selfish, right? Pure K-strategists have few offspring, and so must put additional effort into keeping their offspring alive (else the species would go extinct). This requires the unselfishness indirectly associated with the Poll Question of this Thread --but that doesn't mean the original selfish drive to reproduce doesn't continue to exist! (For the sake of completeness, I should mention that lots of species have reproductive strategies somewhere between pure-R and pure-K.)

Humans are mostly (but not purely) K-strategists. I say this because humans have a rather longer relative life-span and more reproductive years than other K-strategists. Here's some data about that (start on page 144 of the pdf file, for the essay "The Slowly Moving Finger"). We can have more offspring than regular pure K-strategists. And so some of the human species' selfishness with respect to offspring can be seen whenever some male seduces a woman, impregnates her, and runs away to do it again to some other woman. Or when a woman gives birth and leaves the babe on someone's doorstep.

Meh, maybe yes, maybe no. Depends on the person deciding.

But tell me how having kids isnt selfish? Unless you get pregnant accidentally?

Nobody has kids for 'the benefit of society' or 'to help populate the Earth.'

Deciding to have kids is a selfish decision too. You want to have kids, for your own personal reasons, and you have them.

Medusa said:

I believe having kids is selfish ,truth .I began to think this way after seeing lots of selfish stupid women who think 'giving birth is the most important thing in the world and you are not really a woman if you dont have one' .stupid women should not have kids!

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That is stupid and it's part of a very very strong societal influence on women that starts when we're born.

Society's expectation is that people will end up getting married and having kids. And we're nagged and nagged unless we do. And being single is looked down on, like there's something wrong with you, like you're not a full member of society. Not 'complete.'

We lived together for 13 yrs and chose not to get married. The questions of 'when are you getting married?' never stopped.

And when my sister got married, then we all kept asking when they were going to have kids. Yep, me too. And it was totally selfish on my part. If she produced the grandkids, then I would be off the hook for doing so.

maquiscat said:

Not all women are cracked up to be good mothers. The ones who recognize that fact that they specifically are not, are the selfless ones. They do not have a child and then subject them to the misery of their own inability.

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Exactly. And yet there are people in our society that believe such women should never enjoy sex then.

Or anyone not immediately prepared to have kids...even those married...no sex unless you are willing to have a kid.

And then we wonder at so much sexual and relationship dysfunction, and child abuse and neglect.

Medusa said:

I believe having kids is selfish ,truth .I began to think this way after seeing lots of selfish stupid women who think 'giving birth is the most important thing in the world and you are not really a woman if you dont have one' .stupid women should not have kids!

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I believe that giving birth is very important, and society should honor that. Maybe it's different in Turkey, but in the USA abortions are common, and life is not valued as a consequence.

The legal system is downright hostile to men when it comes to having children. It should only be done by a man when he invokes industrial strength risk mitigation.

Lursa said:

Or anyone not immediately prepared to have kids...even those married...no sex unless you are willing to have a kid.

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Actually I agree with this sentiment. Short of being sterile, you should not have sex unless you are willing to have a child. Not desiring or hopeful to have one, just willing. After all, the only 100% effective method is abstinence. Even if you have tubes tied/snipped, use a condom, and a diaphragm, and spermicide, there is still a chance of getting pregnant. If you are going to take that risk, then you should be prepared to deal with any potential consequence, no matter how slim the chance. And I am including the choice of having an abortion or not as part of dealing with the potential consequence of sex. I am also including men in that be prepared bit too.

maquiscat said:

Actually I agree with this sentiment. Short of being sterile, you should not have sex unless you are willing to have a child. Not desiring or hopeful to have one, just willing. After all, the only 100% effective method is abstinence. Even if you have tubes tied/snipped, use a condom, and a diaphragm, and spermicide, there is still a chance of getting pregnant. If you are going to take that risk, then you should be prepared to deal with any potential consequence, no matter how slim the chance. And I am including the choice of having an abortion or not as part of dealing with the potential consequence of sex. I am also including men in that be prepared bit too.

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OK.

I dont find it remotely realistic tho, since all thru history and prehistory, men and women have chosen to risk enjoying sex, despite a much riskier social and physical climate. They risked STDs, stoning, beatings/whippings (etc), public humiliation, exile, disownment, disinheritance, no ability to get employment (women with bastard kids) and also for women, death from pregnancy, childbirth, or abortion.

Today, with much safer, legal options, I dont know why people would be more inclined...or inclined at all...to deny themselves the enjoyment of sex.

truthatallcost said:

I believe that giving birth is very important, and society should honor that. Maybe it's different in Turkey, but in the USA abortions are common, and life is not valued as a consequence.

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it is common here too ,I ethically dont approve it but support womens right to do it .You agree with those women ? giving birth is always important ?

You're selfish if you're selfish, not because you do or don't have kids. Selfish people come in all varieties.

I do feel the world has too many humans though.

Medusa said:

it is common here too ,I ethically dont approve it but support womens right to do it .You agree with those women ? giving birth is always important ?

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Medusa, in the United States, we abort about 1,000,000 babies per year. The racial break down is;

45% white babies
30% black babies
25% Latino babies

We're literally killing our population, while importing people from Latin America and Asia.

Don't follow our lead. We're ****ing idiots at this point.

truthatallcost said:

I believe that giving birth is very important, and society should honor that. Maybe it's different in Turkey, but in the USA abortions are common, and life is not valued as a consequence.

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I am going to disagree, having an abortion does not mean you do not value life because abortions are done for a multitude of reasons. And a lot of reasons are because they actually do value life, the life of themselves, the lives of their other children, the life of the zygote of fetus itself, etc. etc. etc.

And what is common? The rate of abortion has been dropping for more than 2 decades. And now is half of what it was in 1979 and even lower than in 1973 when it became legal.