Abortion and the Earnings Gap

Celebrity · Apr 30, 2018

There is a widely held belief that women earn less than men, which is true if we look at the aggregate over the entire careers of a man and a woman. However, a wage gap between men and women remains in favor of women, who out-earn men in their 20's. There are a variety of factors that cause the disparity in earnings over time to favor men, including the choice to have children.

Ask a woman if she believes women should have the choice to have children. Some women will say no, an abortion is unethical, but many women will say yes. Even if she does not want to abort a fetus for religious reasons, she might still see why it is important to have a choice.

Ask a woman if she believes women should have the ability or choice to earn as much as men. Most women will say yes. I think some women might even say that it should be equal pay.

Yet, when a woman is confronted with the idea that men should have the choice to be a parent, she balks. Men making choices in their own lives? How could that be fair for women? It has nothing to do with women, if he is a single man.

Given that having a child is expensive, and parents need a source of income, it comes as no surprise that women want to force men to provide a source of income to mothers. But this would have never been an issue in the first place if the women had chosen to not be mothers. Hence, some women are choosing to exploit men by becoming mothers.

Why are men and women so rigid in their gender roles? Identity plays a strong role in the matter. Mothers naturally want to stay home and care for the children, while a breadwinner (usually a man, but sometimes an aunt, grandmother or a partner of the same sex) is earning income to support the family.

There are men are motivated to care for children. Unfortunately, due to rigid gender roles, women will not allow this in some situations. I am aware that there are other factors involved in motivating a woman to act as a gatekeeper who prevents her child from interacting with his or her father. In contrast, the primary reason for non-custodial parentage remains that some men simply are not motivated to be involved in a child's life. These men will literally pay to not have custody, if they have the money.

Why do women find it necessary to force good men out, and let bad men in? The fact of the matter is that women are financially motivated to exploit men, regardless of their merits. Mothers are no different. In a mother's career, having a child is not an economic windfall. However, she can be compensated for the child, if she chooses to pimp him or her out in family court.

Feminists do not support equal treatment of fathers and mothers. Mothers receive custody more often and are able to impute the wages of an unemployed man. Should that man never find the opportunity to work, he may be sent to prison. In that case, it is unlikely that he will out-earn many women. This is a highly inefficient way of compensating women for their efforts which is primarily motivated in traditional gender roles. In order to increase gender parity, and reduce the earnings gap, we need to:

1. Figure out a way to stop increasing pay for men on the basis of whether or not they are fathers in conjunction with;
2. End the reliance of women on the enforcement of child support payment on the basis of biological relation to the father.

Abortion is an important economic decision. That is because it is the decision to not pay for the support of a child, a choice which everyone should have.

tecoyah · Apr 30, 2018

Celebrity said:
There is a widely held belief that women earn less than men, which is true if we look at the aggregate over the entire careers of a man and a woman. However, a wage gap between men and women remains in favor of women, who out-earn men in their 20's. There are a variety of factors that cause the disparity in earnings over time to favor men, including the choice to have children.

Ask a woman if she believes women should have the choice to have children. Some women will say no, an abortion is unethical, but many women will say yes. Even if she does not want to abort a fetus for religious reasons, she might still see why it is important to have a choice.

Ask a woman if she believes women should have the ability or choice to earn as much as men. Most women will say yes. I think some women might even say that it should be equal pay.

Yet, when a woman is confronted with the idea that men should have the choice to be a parent, she balks. Men making choices in their own lives? How could that be fair for women? It has nothing to do with women, if he is a single man.

Given that having a child is expensive, and parents need a source of income, it comes as no surprise that women want to force men to provide a source of income to mothers. But this would have never been an issue in the first place if the women had chosen to not be mothers. Hence, some women are choosing to exploit men by becoming mothers.

Why are men and women so rigid in their gender roles? Identity plays a strong role in the matter. Mothers naturally want to stay home and care for the children, while a breadwinner (usually a man, but sometimes an aunt, grandmother or a partner of the same sex) is earning income to support the family.

There are men are motivated to care for children. Unfortunately, due to rigid gender roles, women will not allow this in some situations. I am aware that there are other factors involved in motivating a woman to act as a gatekeeper who prevents her child from interacting with his or her father. In contrast, the primary reason for non-custodial parentage remains that some men simply are not motivated to be involved in a child's life. These men will literally pay to not have custody, if they have the money.

Why do women find it necessary to force good men out, and let bad men in? The fact of the matter is that women are financially motivated to exploit men, regardless of their merits. Mothers are no different. In a mother's career, having a child is not an economic windfall. However, she can be compensated for the child, if she chooses to pimp him or her out in family court.

Feminists do not support equal treatment of fathers and mothers. Mothers receive custody more often and are able to impute the wages of an unemployed man. Should that man never find the opportunity to work, he may be sent to prison. In that case, it is unlikely that he will out-earn many women. This is a highly inefficient way of compensating women for their efforts which is primarily motivated in traditional gender roles. In order to increase gender parity, and reduce the earnings gap, we need to:

1. Figure out a way to stop increasing pay for men on the basis of whether or not they are fathers in conjunction with;
2. End the reliance of women on the enforcement of child support payment on the basis of biological relation to the father.

Abortion is an important economic decision. That is because it is the decision to not pay for the support of a child, a choice which everyone should have.

You seem to have a heavily biased and warped perception of women, reproduction, economic reality and in essence everything in your OP.

HonestJoe · Apr 30, 2018

Celebrity said:
Ask a woman if she believes…

Have you considered actually asking women these questions rather than putting words in their mouths. There are plenty of women on this very forum so why not present these as questions rather than predetermined assumptions?

Celebrity said:
Yet, when a woman is confronted with the idea that men should have the choice to be a parent, she balks. Men making choices in their own lives? How could that be fair for women? It has nothing to do with women, if he is a single man.

I’m not sure where you’re getting this singular impression of women from. In my experience, the reaction or women (and men) varies right across the board to this kind of prospect, just as it does for anything else.

In fact, it’s almost as if women are just normal individual human beings.

bearpoker · Apr 30, 2018

Celebrity said:
There is a widely held belief that women earn less than men, which is true if we look at the aggregate over the entire careers of a man and a woman. However, a wage gap between men and women remains in favor of women, who out-earn men in their 20's. There are a variety of factors that cause the disparity in earnings over time to favor men, including the choice to have children.

Ask a woman if she believes women should have the choice to have children. Some women will say no, an abortion is unethical, but many women will say yes. Even if she does not want to abort a fetus for religious reasons, she might still see why it is important to have a choice.

Ask a woman if she believes women should have the ability or choice to earn as much as men. Most women will say yes. I think some women might even say that it should be equal pay.

Yet, when a woman is confronted with the idea that men should have the choice to be a parent, she balks. Men making choices in their own lives? How could that be fair for women? It has nothing to do with women, if he is a single man.

Given that having a child is expensive, and parents need a source of income, it comes as no surprise that women want to force men to provide a source of income to mothers. But this would have never been an issue in the first place if the women had chosen to not be mothers. Hence, some women are choosing to exploit men by becoming mothers.

Why are men and women so rigid in their gender roles? Identity plays a strong role in the matter. Mothers naturally want to stay home and care for the children, while a breadwinner (usually a man, but sometimes an aunt, grandmother or a partner of the same sex) is earning income to support the family.

There are men are motivated to care for children. Unfortunately, due to rigid gender roles, women will not allow this in some situations. I am aware that there are other factors involved in motivating a woman to act as a gatekeeper who prevents her child from interacting with his or her father. In contrast, the primary reason for non-custodial parentage remains that some men simply are not motivated to be involved in a child's life. These men will literally pay to not have custody, if they have the money.

Why do women find it necessary to force good men out, and let bad men in? The fact of the matter is that women are financially motivated to exploit men, regardless of their merits. Mothers are no different. In a mother's career, having a child is not an economic windfall. However, she can be compensated for the child, if she chooses to pimp him or her out in family court.

Feminists do not support equal treatment of fathers and mothers. Mothers receive custody more often and are able to impute the wages of an unemployed man. Should that man never find the opportunity to work, he may be sent to prison. In that case, it is unlikely that he will out-earn many women. This is a highly inefficient way of compensating women for their efforts which is primarily motivated in traditional gender roles. In order to increase gender parity, and reduce the earnings gap, we need to:

1. Figure out a way to stop increasing pay for men on the basis of whether or not they are fathers in conjunction with;
2. End the reliance of women on the enforcement of child support payment on the basis of biological relation to the father.

Abortion is an important economic decision. That is because it is the decision to not pay for the support of a child, a choice which everyone should have.

A man can certainly choose to not have children. He can choose to use condoms or to abstain from sex. Problem solved.

Xelor · Apr 30, 2018

Celebrity said:
There is a widely held belief that women earn less than men, which is true if we look at the aggregate over the entire careers of a man and a woman. However, a wage gap between men and women remains in favor of women, who out-earn men in their 20's.

The sentences above are all of the OP that I read. There're all I read because they alone are "too much for daytime television": You opened your essay with a blatant misrepresentation of the information in the article you presumably read, cited, and either (1) didn't understand well enough to accurately paraphrase a very simple objective fact from the article, or (2) understood what the Fortune article said and willfully misrepresented it. I don't know or care which it be; I just know that because I've observed you misrepresent a very simple fact/data element that is laid out "in black and white;" thus there's no way in hell I'm going to trust that your representation of other facts is factually and contextually accurate, to say nothing of any inferences you may present in your essay.

Celebrity said:
There is a widely held belief that women earn less than men, which is true if we look at the aggregate over the entire careers of a man and a woman. However, a wage gap between men and women remains in favor of women, who out-earn men in their 20's.

Women in their 20s do not "out-earn men." The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) data show that and the Fortune article you cited did not claim they do.

According to the BLS, in no decadal cohort and in no period from do women out-earn men.
- Median usual weekly earnings of women and men who are full-time wage and salary workers, by age, 2016 annual averages
  - Women and men ages 16 to 24: $486 and $512, respectively
  - Women and men ages 25 to 34: $705 and $794, respectively
  - Women and men ages 35 to 44: $839 and $1,007, respectively
  - Women and men ages 45 to 54: $836 and $1,075, respectively
  - Women and men ages 55 to 64: $812 and $ 1,102, respectively
  - Women and men ages 65 and older: $749 and $992, respectively
The Fortune magazine article you cited doesn't say or imply that women in their 20s earn more than men. It says that per a Hired study, "women with two years of experience or less tend to ask for an average 2% more compensation than their male counterparts," and that women in that specific cohort receive final offers that are 7%. The article goes on to note that such women are in their early 20s.
- Aside:
  The Hired study the Fortune article references pertains to job offers, not actual sums earned. That may or may not be important. I know that when I was in my early 20s (college student, no work experience) I applied for summer jobs with accounting firms, investment banks, two commercial banks and three Fortune 100 firms in non-finance industries. For my sophomore summer, I took the offer that paid the most. For my junior summer, I took one that paid less but that was in the field in which I was of a mind to pursue a career. I'm sure thinking as I did is not unique to me, but I have no idea of how not-unique-to-me it is, most especially among women with two or fewer years of experience.

OlNate · Apr 30, 2018

Celebrity said:
Hence, some women are choosing to exploit men by becoming mothers.

Holy ****, ANOTHER thread about this? Is this national MRA month in the US, or something?

Ok, I have to allow that the American education system isn't as consistently high quality as other nations, so before I continue to rant about personal responsibility, and the male's first opportunity to refuse (aka, that little tingly feeling you get that lets you know you're getting close, but haven't passed the point of no return), and ask: Do you need reproduction explained to you?

In a nutshell (excuse the pun): no coming inside lady, no baby, no baby support. You have all the control and freedom in the world. Stop pretending you don't, and advocate for men being responsible with the control they have. Or don't, and live with the responsibilities the law has determined you acquire as a result. (Using universal you, not talking about you specifically, I have no idea what your situation is). It's not like it should be a shock to anyone by now. Use your heads, it'll all be ok.

year2late · Apr 30, 2018

bearpoker said:
A man can certainly choose to not have children. He can choose to use condoms or to abstain from sex. Problem solved.

tecoyah said:
You seem to have a heavily biased and warped perception of women, reproduction, economic reality and in essence everything in your OP.

That much is certain.

year2late · Apr 30, 2018

OlNate said:
Holy ****, ANOTHER thread about this? Is this national MRA month in the US, or something?

Ok, I have to allow that the American education system isn't as consistently high quality as other nations, so before I continue to rant about personal responsibility, and the male's first opportunity to refuse (aka, that little tingly feeling you get that lets you know you're getting close, but haven't passed the point of no return), and ask: Do you need reproduction explained to you?

In a nutshell (excuse the pun): no coming inside lady, no baby, no baby support. You have all the control and freedom in the world. Stop pretending you don't, and advocate for men being responsible with the control they have. Or don't, and live with the responsibilities the law has determined you acquire as a result. (Using universal you, not talking about you specifically, I have no idea what your situation is). It's not like it should be a shock to anyone by now. Use your heads, it'll all be ok.

It is some weird notion that since a woman has the extra choice due to that fact that she bears 100 percent of the bodily risk of pregnancy that he gets to opt out of any responsibility.

I have said this before. I would like women and men to have better reproductive choices in prevention of unwanted pregnancy. I would like either partner have the opportunity to prevent unwanted conception.
Women have some long term options that have some risk and are financially out of reach for those that are too rich for Medicaid and too poor for insurance. Men currently have no such option - so condoms and vasectomy are what is there for them. But if they really do not want to be responsible.....condoms are the most likely choice.

OlNate · Apr 30, 2018

year2late said:
It is some weird notion that since a woman has the extra choice due to that fact that she bears 100 percent of the bodily risk of pregnancy that he gets to opt out of any responsibility.

I have said this before. I would like women and men to have better reproductive choices in prevention of unwanted pregnancy. I would like either partner have the opportunity to prevent unwanted conception.
Women have some long term options that have some risk and are financially out of reach for those that are too rich for Medicaid and too poor for insurance. Men currently have no such option - so condoms and vasectomy are what is there for them. But if they really do not want to be responsible.....condoms are the most likely choice.

That, or just don't **** people who you can't be sure of the outcome of that interaction. I had plenty of partners before I got married, and none of them came back with an OlNate Jr..

Celebrity · May 6, 2018

tecoyah said:
You seem to have a heavily biased and warped perception of women, reproduction, economic reality and in essence everything in your OP.

This is your passive aggressive idea of "debate."

HonestJoe said:
Have you considered actually asking women these questions rather than putting words in their mouths. There are plenty of women on this very forum so why not present these as questions rather than predetermined assumptions?

I have considered it and I have made multiple threads on this topic. Next.

I’m not sure where you’re getting this singular impression of women from. In my experience, the reaction or women (and men) varies right across the board to this kind of prospect, just as it does for anything else.

In fact, it’s almost as if women are just normal individual human beings.

It's not singular, I included multiple impressions in my post. Clearly some women are pro life and pro choice. I think it's clear which motives I was questioning.

bearpoker said:
A man can certainly choose to not have children. He can choose to use condoms or to abstain from sex. Problem solved.

Sexual intercourse and moving a baby out of a woman's vagina are two different things. Men do not have vaginas, and men cannot make children. Therefore, men do not choose to make or not make children when men have sex with women. At the time of sexual intercourse there exists no fetus.

Hari Seldon · May 6, 2018

HonestJoe said:
Have you considered actually asking women these questions rather than putting words in their mouths. There are plenty of women on this very forum so why not present these as questions rather than predetermined assumptions?

I’m not sure where you’re getting this singular impression of women from. In my experience, the reaction or women (and men) varies right across the board to this kind of prospect, just as it does for anything else.

In fact, it’s almost as if women are just normal individual human beings.

I don't know if I would go that far.

Celebrity · May 6, 2018

Xelor said:
Women in their 20s do not "out-earn men." The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) data show that and the Fortune article you cited did not claim they do.

The Fortune magazine article I cited does imply that women in their 20's earn more than men, by the title "Why Women in Their Early 20s Are Out-Earning Men."

The BLS you cited completely ignore the topic of this forum, which is abortion. Let's take a look at how teen pregnancy negatively affects earnings. Teen pregnancy is costly, and can be prevented by abortion. Only women have access to abortion, and men do not have any similar option to eschew pregnancy or child rearing.

According to the Alliance for Excellent Education, it is estimated that over the course of his or her lifetime, a single high school dropout costs the nation approximately $260,000 in lost earnings, taxes, and productivity.

https://thinkprogress.org/teen-pregnancy-negatively-impacts-the-national-economy-cc2901eaf705/

That quarter of a million dollar figure could be addressed by policy in several different ways. Politicians love to act like they are doing something good for the community when they implement welfare programs and job training. Undoubtedly, these are fine options, but they fail to address the root cause of the issue which is childbirth (specifically for teen mothers or teen fathers who drop out of high school).

Without childbirth, there is no child rearing. Without abortion, childbirth becomes much more likely. Because men are forced to pay child support, we should examine the cost of that support. It would be negligent not to examine the effects of policy on this forum. That effect is a negative affect on men, and a negative effect on the US economy. Because men are not physically capable of birthing a children, it would appear that men are actually being held responsible for something that they cannot do. If men are held financially responsible for child support in their 20's, then their net wealth is significantly less than a childless woman in her 20's, hence my claims that the earnings gap is due to women who choose to bear the financial burden of child rearing and women out earn men who are forced to pay a debt.

Hari Seldon said:
I don't know if I would go that far.

Women are just fine and dandy, aren't they? Too bad they make such poor choices that financially affect themselves and cause problems for the entire economy.

Celebrity · May 6, 2018

OlNate said:
Holy ****, ANOTHER thread about this? Is this national MRA month in the US, or something?

Ok, I have to allow that the American education system isn't as consistently high quality as other nations, so before I continue to rant about personal responsibility, and the male's first opportunity to refuse (aka, that little tingly feeling you get that lets you know you're getting close, but haven't passed the point of no return), and ask: Do you need reproduction explained to you?

In a nutshell (excuse the pun): no coming inside lady, no baby, no baby support. You have all the control and freedom in the world. Stop pretending you don't, and advocate for men being responsible with the control they have. Or don't, and live with the responsibilities the law has determined you acquire as a result. (Using universal you, not talking about you specifically, I have no idea what your situation is). It's not like it should be a shock to anyone by now. Use your heads, it'll all be ok.

And you call yourself Progressive. :roll:

OlNate, pardon my having to put this in such simple anatomical terms, but men simply do not make babies.

If childbirth is only a woman's choice, then childbirth should only be a woman's financial burden. I think that sufficient welfare programs can be established to support women who do not have enough money to pay for the child rearing. But incarcerating the fathers just isn't working. The law has "determined" a contradiction: that I may be held accountable for someone else's actions and assigned a debt for which I may be incarcerated, as well as being protected from this very incarceration by the 13th amendment. The 13th amendment reads:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

So I ask you: Is it a crime to ejaculate?

OlNate · May 6, 2018

Celebrity said:
And you call yourself Progressive. :roll:

OlNate, pardon my having to put this in such simple anatomical terms, but men simply do not make babies.

If childbirth is only a woman's choice, then childbirth should only be a woman's financial burden. I think that sufficient welfare programs can be established to support women who do not have enough money to pay for the child rearing. But incarcerating the fathers just isn't working. The law has "determined" a contradiction: that I may be held accountable for someone else's actions and assigned a debt for which I may be incarcerated, as well as being protected from this very incarceration by the 13th amendment. The 13th amendment reads:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

So I ask you: Is it a crime to ejaculate?

No...but I must admit to being a little battle weary on this subject, having debated the **** out of it most of last week...so I'll present my point of view in a nutshell.

The idea that you are putting forth is essentially extortion, where a woman must either give up her bodily autonomy, and have an abortion she may not want to have, or face potential hardship and a much harder struggle to provide for the child, impacting them the most, which of course is the focus behind these laws. All because the father doesn't feel like being responsible for the life he helped create, despite having any number of ways to prevent the pregnancy. I call complete and utter bull**** on the false equivalency to slavery, given the fact that all you need to do avoid said "slavery" is use your ****ing head...and perhaps a condom. I find the comparison beyond gross. And finally, establishing welfare programs to look after the unwanted offspring of dead beat dads robs deserving people in need of already limited funds, so of course I do not support that either.

Brain and a condom, man...that's all you need.

Now, I'm sure you'll disagree with me, and have all kinds of things to say in response, but at the end of the day the law is what it is, and I don't feel like spending another week getting all worked up about something I don't have to worry about at all. Thanks for the chat, homie. Have a good one.

Celebrity · May 7, 2018

OlNate said:
The idea that you are putting forth is essentially extortion, where a woman must either give up her bodily autonomy, and have an abortion she may not want to have, or face potential hardship and a much harder struggle to provide for the child, impacting them the most, which of course is the focus behind these laws. All because the father doesn't feel like being responsible for the life he helped create, despite having any number of ways to prevent the pregnancy.

This is wrong. I am not suggesting that anyone extort mothers. Until you fix your argument, I cannot address any of the further claims which are contingent upon this fallacy.

ex·tor·tion
/ikˈstôrSH(ə)n/
noun
the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.

To the contrary, failure to allow men parental choice is extortion.

Not only are you wrong, but the opposite of what you have asserted is true.

year2late · May 7, 2018

OlNate said:
No...but I must admit to being a little battle weary on this subject, having debated the **** out of it most of last week...so I'll present my point of view in a nutshell.

The idea that you are putting forth is essentially extortion, where a woman must either give up her bodily autonomy, and have an abortion she may not want to have, or face potential hardship and a much harder struggle to provide for the child, impacting them the most, which of course is the focus behind these laws. All because the father doesn't feel like being responsible for the life he helped create, despite having any number of ways to prevent the pregnancy. I call complete and utter bull**** on the false equivalency to slavery, given the fact that all you need to do avoid said "slavery" is use your ****ing head...and perhaps a condom. I find the comparison beyond gross. And finally, establishing welfare programs to look after the unwanted offspring of dead beat dads robs deserving people in need of already limited funds, so of course I do not support that either.

Brain and a condom, man...that's all you need.

Now, I'm sure you'll disagree with me, and have all kinds of things to say in response, but at the end of the day the law is what it is, and I don't feel like spending another week getting all worked up about something I don't have to worry about at all. Thanks for the chat, homie. Have a good one.

Bottom line is he believes that the potential for abortion gives men the right to avoid responsibility for the child he helped create.

This has nothing to do with my argument, but can you imagine what things would luck like if men were told they did not have to be responsible for the children they create -ever?

Celebrity · May 7, 2018

year2late said:
Bottom line is he believes that the potential for abortion gives men the right to avoid responsibility for the child he helped create.

This has nothing to do with my argument, but can you imagine what things would luck like if men were told they did not have to be responsible for the children they create -ever?

Among men, we do not have a single uterus, therefore no man creates children.

If you can point out some action by which men cause childbirth, or point out some body part on the male anatomy that is responsible for childbirth, I can admit that I am wrong.

Alternatively, if abortion is a woman's choice because a woman's body creates children, then why do you not accept that you are wrong to assert that men create children?

tecoyah · May 7, 2018

Celebrity said:
This is your passive aggressive idea of "debate."

....snip....

Actually, that is a complex and individual commentary the human brain utilizes when evaluating data in order to express personal understanding of issues or situations.

The common terminology is "Opinion" and it is an often used process when discussing or engaging in communications.

OlNate · May 7, 2018

Celebrity said:
This is wrong. I am not suggesting that anyone extort mothers. Until you fix your argument, I cannot address any of the further claims which are contingent upon this fallacy.

ex·tor·tion
/ikˈstôrSH(ə)n/
noun
the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.

To the contrary, failure to allow men parental choice is extortion.

Not only are you wrong, but the opposite of what you have asserted is true.

Ok, cool...you think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong. Wasn't asking for a debate, but I generally respond to quotes, so...there ya go.

Again, thankfully, this is something no one is willing to entertain in the numbers required to make the change, so...enjoy your hypothetical. But maybe watch where your sperm goes at the same time, if you wish to avoid this great oppression we men are burdened with...maybe dust off those old sex ed books, if there's any confusion on how to arm yourself for the "revolution"... (spoiler alert...it's a condom)

All flippancy aside, if you were on here talking about wanting to better empower men to protect themselves with a better form of birth control, I can get behind that. It's stupid that men don't have a birth control pill option, for example, we need one. But if you're looking for support for dead beat dads to be dead beat dads, ya go the wrong guy, your time is better spent in a different direction.

OlNate · May 7, 2018

year2late said:
Bottom line is he believes that the potential for abortion gives men the right to avoid responsibility for the child he helped create.

This has nothing to do with my argument, but can you imagine what things would luck like if men were told they did not have to be responsible for the children they create -ever?

Yes...it would be the same as if you told women they didn't have to take responsibility for anything they create (which, because it takes place in their body, is pretty much how it is). Human nature tends to take the path of least resistance if allowed, right or wrong, if told it's ok to do so, and it let's them avoid doing something they don't want to do.

Of course, I would argue the majority of people want the pregnancy and therefore the child...the above specifically refers to people who don't want the kids they create. I don't think passing some sort of ridiculous "opt out" initiative would cause men to suddenly and abruptly change their desire to be fathers...it would only impact the ability of a gaggle of losers to get duck responsibilities they don't want, not make good fathers bad...

Xelor · May 7, 2018

Celebrity said:
The Fortune magazine article I cited does imply that women in their 20's earn more than men, by the title "Why Women in Their Early 20s Are Out-Earning Men."

The title does indeed imply that; however, the article itself clarifies the title and makes clear that it is not "women in their 20s" who earn more than men, but rather a subset of "women in their 20s," namely, those having 2 years or less experience.

Celebrity said:
There is a widely held belief that women earn less than men, which is true if we look at the aggregate over the entire careers of a man and a woman.However, a wage gap between men and women remains in favor of women, who out-earn men in their 20's.

To tell you the truth, the emboldened statement above does nothing to support or illustrate any of your key points; thus insofar as it's also not accurate, I don't know why you wrote it, but the fact remains that you did.

Celebrity said:
The BLS you cited completely ignore the topic of this forum, which is abortion.

That's true; I didn't present it for that purpose. I presented it to show that one of your argument-opening assertions (premises) is factually inaccurate. That's it.

The BLS information I provided shows that the above remark is factually inaccurate. Presumably, you made that statement in support or illustrate something that's germane to the themes in your essay. Well, an existentially inaccurate depiction of reality illustrates nothing other than perhaps what the writer perceives/wishes/wants to be so. Argumentatively, however, an untrue premise/observation/claim invalidates/weakens an argument. Knowing that is why, as I noted earlier, I didn't read beyond the assertion about women in their 20s. It was a long-ish post/argument, and I simply am not going to read a long-ish (or long series of posts) that contains factual inaccuracies about objectively determinable realities.

There surely are a variety of factors that cause " the disparity in earnings over time to favor men;" however even were it so that women in their 20s earn more than men, that circumstance could not be among them. Think about it. One cannot assert that the earnings disparity between the sexes favors me because women earn more in the first decade of their adult life.

Bodi · May 11, 2018

bearpoker said:
A man can certainly choose to not have children. He can choose to use condoms or to abstain from sex. Problem solved.

So sex is consent to parenthood for a man but not for a woman?

Bodi · May 12, 2018

OlNate said:
The idea that you are putting forth is essentially extortion, where a woman must either give up her bodily autonomy, and have an abortion she may not want to have, or face potential hardship and a much harder struggle to provide for the child, impacting them the most ... All because the father doesn't feel like being responsible for the life he helped create...

So what?

Why are morals more important than his? Fine. She can have or not have the kid. But perhaps not forcing the man to pay for her choice will force more responsible sex by both the man AND THE WOMAN.

And no... it is not extortion. She is a big girl and if opt out was a valid legal option she should be smart and not **** guys not committed to her...

And no... the woman makes the baby.

Lursa · May 12, 2018

year2late said:
It is some weird notion that since a woman has the extra choice due to that fact that she bears 100 percent of the bodily risk of pregnancy that he gets to opt out of any responsibility.

Men have a "civil right" to do so!

Said no legitimate legal sources ever :lamo

Lursa · May 12, 2018

Celebrity said:
Without childbirth, there is no child rearing. Without abortion, childbirth becomes much more likely. Because men are forced to pay child support, we should examine the cost of that support. .

Maybe we should examine the reason for that support? Which applies to both men and women equally. Are you saying that men cannot avoid getting women pregnant? Are you saying that men are not aware that, if they get a woman pregnant, they will be held responsible also, IF there is a child?

Why are we so concerned about men paying child support when, aside from divorce, men can pretty much avoid paying it OR accept the consequences of the risk they knowingly took? Is there a reason that men cannot do these things to protect themselves?

Abortion and the Earnings Gap

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