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Abortion is murder ?

Abortion is murder ?


  • Total voters
    44
Thank you, Old Trapper. I was aware of some of these laws. But I was trying to reach to get down to first principles and have a normative discussion as to whether unborn children are worthy of protection, rather than discussing or debating the laws that were already on the books. It is clear that many people on the Pro-Choice side are not merely pro-Choice, but do not believe that these anti-Feticide laws should be applied either. I do not fault them for their consistency in the matter.

The law in many states clearly recognizes that killing an unborn child is a crime meriting punishment of the one killing the unborn child. But if the mother wishes the unborn child to die, she has the absolute right to do so. So my question to those who are pro-Choice and do not believe abortion is murder: Should these anti-Feticide laws be abolished?
Yes. They are completely moronic. The UVVA states in it SPECIFICALLY that it does not apply to abortion providers. They are in my opinion just dumb.
 
The law in many states clearly recognizes that killing an unborn child is a crime meriting punishment of the one killing the unborn child. But if the mother wishes the unborn child to die, she has the absolute right to do so. So my question to those who are pro-Choice and do not believe abortion is murder: Should these anti-Feticide laws be abolished?[/QUOTE}

What I have found in most cases for the pro-choice types is that the whole of the discussion relies on the intent of the "mother" (and I actually do not consider a person who is about to kill their child a mother). If she was on her way to an abortion clinic to have the baby destroyed, not to a hospital to have the child delivered, is it then murder under the scenario you post? But then, I consider abortion clinics to be a den of murderers.
 
The law in many states clearly recognizes that killing an unborn child is a crime meriting punishment of the one killing the unborn child. But if the mother wishes the unborn child to die, she has the absolute right to do so. So my question to those who are pro-Choice and do not believe abortion is murder: Should these anti-Feticide laws be abolished?[/QUOTE}

What I have found in most cases for the pro-choice types is that the whole of the discussion relies on the intent of the "mother" (and I actually do not consider a person who is about to kill their child a mother). If she was on her way to an abortion clinic to have the baby destroyed, not to a hospital to have the child delivered, is it then murder under the scenario you post? But then, I consider abortion clinics to be a den of murderers.

I consider abortion clinics to me medical providers providing a valuable medical service. Call me crazy
 
Quoting...

" should be defined as murder "

It is murdering a defenseless child and its cheap.

Incorrect. Murder is ILLEGAL killing of a person by a person. 1. the zef is not a person and 2. abortion is not illegal here in Canada or in the USA.
 
I would like to ask members of the thread here who answered "No": If a person murders a pregnant woman, should that person be tried for a double murder or single murder? Would it depend on how far along the child's birth has been?

In other words, was the Scott Peterson case wrongly decided and should he be acquitted for the Second Degree murder of his unborn child?

In my country, it is a single murder charge, as it should be.
 
Incorrect. Murder is ILLEGAL killing of a person by a person. 1. the zef is not a person and 2. abortion is not illegal here in Canada or in the USA.

The question was should it be illegal, and defined as murder. While it is legal here in the States, morally it is still murder. Call it a "zef", or any other asinine term you want to use, it is still a growing human life.
 
I consider abortion clinics to me medical providers providing a valuable medical service. Call me crazy

A "valuable medical service"? Destroying a human life is now a "medical service". Not crazy, just lacking in moral values as can be seen by the direction the world is going in.
 
I will grant you that children are being killed all over the world. However, having moral values, and ethics, I would not say it is a great thing. ISIS, and other terrorist groups, seem to agree with you though.

So does almost every country on earth. You are the outlier. Lol
 
Striking a pose I see.
FACTS ARE FACTS. I don't see you offering any "alternative facts". Just worthless unsupported opinions (below).

Let me rephrase...Abortion is wrong
YOUR MERE CLAIM IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Why don't you provide some evidence? I assume that because you didn't, you can't. Tsk, tsk!

just like same sex marriage crap no thanks to barack "E-40 weight" obama.
YOUR MERE CLAIM IS STILL WORTHLESS WITHOUT EVIDENCE. But I don't care about any evidence regarding either side of that topic in this Forum (for the Abortion Debate), so don't bother.
 
FACTS ARE FACTS. I don't see you offering any "alternative facts". Just worthless unsupported opinions (below).


YOUR MERE CLAIM IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Why don't you provide some evidence? I assume that because you didn't, you can't. Tsk, tsk!


YOUR MERE CLAIM IS STILL WORTHLESS WITHOUT EVIDENCE. But I don't care about any evidence regarding either side of that topic in this Forum (for the Abortion Debate), so don't bother.

Oh yawn...yawn.
I don't care how you feel about this topic nor about you and the others are here and btw bub...I joined a prayer vigil across the road from a abortion clinic. I believe they also produced black gay and child porn medias but as you say there's no evidence to prove which proves how dirty and trashy abortions are.
Good luck in life and I'm done, I have to look for another abortion clinic and heckle it as well.
(walks away with a smile)
 
...I joined a prayer vigil across the road from a abortion clinic.
OKAY. Provided you are praying for the women who have been victimized by abortion-opponent policies to the point where they feel their only option is to abort. It's a total waste of effort pray for the mindless soulless animals getting aborted there; if you want to pray for mindless soulless animals, you should pray for the bees. Because without them, all those extra mouths-to-feed that you want to see born are going to die, anyway, slowly and horribly from starvation.
 
legally it should be defined as murder ?

It's murder, if killing your offspring is indeed murder. But it should be legal. Some murders are necessary. Call it justifiable homicide.
 
Thank you, Old Trapper. I was aware of some of these laws. But I was trying to reach to get down to first principles and have a normative discussion as to whether unborn children are worthy of protection, rather than discussing or debating the laws that were already on the books. It is clear that many people on the Pro-Choice side are not merely pro-Choice, but do not believe that these anti-Feticide laws should be applied either. I do not fault them for their consistency in the matter.

The law in many states clearly recognizes that killing an unborn child is a crime meriting punishment of the one killing the unborn child. But if the mother wishes the unborn child to die, she has the absolute right to do so. So my question to those who are pro-Choice and do not believe abortion is murder: Should these anti-Feticide laws be abolished?

so you are looking for moral/ethical basis for abortion rather than legal?

And the feticide laws are not based on the loss of an individual, like homicide. They are based on a loss in their value to the mother or the state. And not all states have such laws.
 
I think it is a murder? :(
 
OKAY. Provided you are praying for the women who have been victimized by abortion-opponent policies to the point where they feel their only option is to abort. It's a total waste of effort pray for the mindless soulless animals getting aborted there; if you want to pray for mindless soulless animals, you should pray for the bees. Because without them, all those extra mouths-to-feed that you want to see born are going to die, anyway, slowly and horribly from starvation.
"Animal" is merely a construct, and has no validity outside of its utility in certain scientific trades.

From a scientific perspective, all material entities are composed of different arrangements of particles - the same carbon atoms which make up minerals make up physical forms of insects, and animals, and humans.

So tell me, why should a human, let alone an animal, be privileged over a rock or a speck of dust? If it is acceptable to force a rock to be chiseled into a statue, then why should it not be acceptable to force a woman, or any other material object, into whatever means one wishes?

Well, I doubt that Vice would be a credible source in actual scientific research. Perhaps rather than just spouting pop-sci jargon to give an illusion of credibility, you should address the fallacies I've pointed out.
 
"Animal" is merely a construct, and has no validity outside of its utility in certain scientific trades.
NEVERTHELESS, HUMANS ARE ANIMALS. Even kids might know that Fact better than some adults.

From a scientific perspective, all material entities are composed of different arrangements of particles - the same carbon atoms which make up minerals make up physical forms of insects, and animals, and humans.
DON'T FORGET MACHINES, including future robots that we expect to possess True Artificial Intelligence.

So tell me, why should a human, let alone an animal, be privileged over a rock or a speck of dust?
YOU CAN INCLUDE PLANTS, TOO. In general, living things can only survive by obtaining resources from outside themselves. Plants most-directly affect rocks and specks of dust, although animals sometimes do, too (salt licks). Your question seems to be equivalent to asking, why should any living thing continue to survive? Prior to the existence of sufficient intelligence to be able to ask such a Question, the Answer appears to be something like "Nature doesn't care; anything that can possibly happen is allowed to happen." That word "should" in the Question is irrelevant.

AFTER the existence of sufficient intelligence to be able to ask such a Question, a facetious Answer might be, "If you think living things shouldn't, then why not start with yourself?" After all, most living things have an ingrained "drive to survive" --Evolution basically weeded out all the life-forms that didn't have that!

If it is acceptable to force a rock to be chiseled into a statue, then why should it not be acceptable to force a woman, or any other material object, into whatever means one wishes?
THE ROCK DOES NOT HAVE ANY IOTA OF VOLITION. Even a microbe has enough volition such that after detecting a nearby food-particle, it tends to move to engulf it. (While this is certainly more of a stimulus/response thing than any sort of "will" getting exercised, I'm melding the two things here under the generic label of "volition", simply because it can be difficult to tell when stimulus/response ends and "will" begins, as classically pointed out here.) Your Question basically asks why your volition is superior to the volition of other entities that also have it. Prior to the existence of sufficient intelligence to be able to ask such a Question, the Answer appears to be, "Nature doesn't care; anything that can possibly happen is allowed to happen." In terms of Evolution, there is The Law of the Jungle, basically "might makes right". As previously mentioned, living things cannot survive without obtaining resources from outside themselves. Often those resources are found in other living things....

AFTER the existence of sufficient intelligence to be able to ask such a Question, we note that humans claim to have a greater degree of "will" than all the other life-forms on Earth, and humans have traditionally used that excuse to conclude that their volition is superior to the volition of other living things. In general, most humans are equated with other humans in that way, and therefore the volition of one is not usually considered to be superior to the volition of another. The main exception is unborn humans, which provably have no more volition than ordinary animals. (We know this because we can test infant humans easily, and they are basically stimulus/response machines --which means less-developed unborn humans are also basically stimulus/response machines.)

Well, I doubt that Vice would be a credible source in actual scientific research.
A "POPULAR" PRESENTATION DOESN'T MAKE THE SITUATION LESS REAL. The plight of bees has been getting well-documented in appropriate scientific circles for several years now.

Perhaps rather than just spouting pop-sci jargon to give an illusion of credibility, you should address the fallacies I've pointed out.
PERHAPS YOU SHOULD ACTUALLY PRESENT SOME FALLACIES, instead of exposing your ignorance.
 
Animals are atoms, this is a fact - you seem to be confused as to the definition of fact. Animal is just a zoological definition, so one could just as easily say humans are atoms, much like rocks.

DON'T FORGET MACHINES, including future robots that we expect to possess True Artificial Intelligence.
Children imagine lots of whimsical things, such as how they might grow up to be a Jedi Knight and confront the Sith.

But realistically, how much would it financially cost for an economy to implement this on a large scale - and what are the odds of any of this actually happening in your mortal lifetime? If it happens after you're dead, it won't make a difference.

YOU CAN INCLUDE PLANTS, TOO. In general, living things can only survive by obtaining resources from outside themselves. Plants most-directly affect rocks and specks of dust, although animals sometimes do, too (salt licks). Your question seems to be equivalent to asking, why should any living thing continue to survive? Prior to the existence of sufficient intelligence to be able to ask such a Question, the Answer appears to be something like "Nature doesn't care; anything that can possibly happen is allowed to happen." That word "should" in the Question is irrelevant.
"Living" is a construct - tell me what the actual difference between a "living thing" and a nonliving thing, like a rock is?

So why should certain arrangements of atoms which we constructively call "living" be privileged over other arrangements of particles?

AFTER the existence of sufficient intelligence to be able to ask such a Question, a facetious Answer might be, "If you think living things shouldn't, then why not start with yourself?" After all, most living things have an ingrained "drive to survive" --Evolution basically weeded out all the life-forms that didn't have that!


THE ROCK DOES NOT HAVE ANY IOTA OF VOLITION. Even a microbe has enough volition such that after detecting a nearby food-particle, it tends to move to engulf it. (While this is certainly more of a stimulus/response thing than any sort of "will" getting exercised, I'm melding the two things here under the generic label of "volition", simply because it can be difficult to tell when stimulus/response ends and "will" begins, as classically pointed out here.) Your Question basically asks why your volition is superior to the volition of other entities that also have it. Prior to the existence of sufficient intelligence to be able to ask such a Question, the Answer appears to be, "Nature doesn't care; anything that can possibly happen is allowed to happen." In terms of Evolution, there is The Law of the Jungle, basically "might makes right". As previously mentioned, living things cannot survive without obtaining resources from outside themselves. Often those resources are found in other living things....

AFTER the existence of sufficient intelligence to be able to ask such a Question, we note that humans claim to have a greater degree of "will" than all the other life-forms on Earth, and humans have traditionally used that excuse to conclude that their volition is superior to the volition of other living things. In general, most humans are equated with other humans in that way, and therefore the volition of one is not usually considered to be superior to the volition of another. The main exception is unborn humans, which provably have no more volition than ordinary animals. (We know this because we can test infant humans easily, and they are basically stimulus/response machines --which means less-developed unborn humans are also basically stimulus/response machines.)


A "POPULAR" PRESENTATION DOESN'T MAKE THE SITUATION LESS REAL. The plight of bees has been getting well-documented in appropriate scientific circles for several years now.


PERHAPS YOU SHOULD ACTUALLY PRESENT SOME FALLACIES, instead of exposing your ignorance.
"Volition" is a moot point, who declared that collections of material particles which contained "volition" should be privileged over ones which don't?

As far as I'm aware, no "god" declared this, nor did the flying spaghetti monster - it's just some quaint, faith-based notion you have that "volition" is some sacred cow.

So there's no reason that a human, a bee, or any other animal should have any more "right" than a computer, or a rock should.
 
Animals are atoms, this is a fact
NO, THAT IS A STUPID LIE. Animals are made from atoms, and are very different from atoms.

- you seem to be confused as to the definition of fact.
BRAGGING ABOUT YOURSELF, I SEE. Tsk, tsk!

Animal is just a zoological definition,
NOT QUITE. The root-word from which "animal" is derived refers to motion. Animals can generate forces within themselves to move about. Atoms only move about as a consequence of external factors.

so one could just as easily say humans are atoms,
REPEATING YOUR STUPID LIE DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY LESS STUPID, NOR ANY LESS OF A LIE.

much like rocks.
MOST ROCKS ARE DIFFERENT FROM ATOMS, ALSO. Many are full of complex molecules. Much like atoms, rocks only move about as a consequence of external factors.

Children imagine lots of whimsical things, such as how they might grow up to be a Jedi Knight and confront the Sith.
IRRELEVANT TO ACTUAL FACTS KNOWN BY CHILDREN. They might not know as many actual facts as an average adult, but they generally know at least some. I mentioned a specific fact that a particular child knew, that a particular adult didn't accept as actual Fact.

But realistically, how much would it financially cost for an economy to implement this on a large scale
ALL IT TAKES IS ONE. A robot with a True Artificial Intelligence would be quite equivalent to an ordinary human person.

- and what are the odds of any of this actually happening in your mortal lifetime?
THE ODDS ARE GOOD. For example, here is some data about the memory capacity of the human brain. Here's some old-ish (2004) data about the growth of storage capacity of hard-disk drives. Currently-available drives are about 1/100 of human-brain capacity. The graph near the start of the capacity-growth article shows that between 1990 and 2000, storage capacity increased 100-fold. If that trend continues, then in about 10 years we can expect hard disk drives to have the same storage capacity as the human brain. There are similar trends for the usage of RAM in computers. Many A.I. researchers think that if we don't have True A.I. in 20 years, the software will be the bottleneck, not the hardware.

If it happens after you're dead, it won't make a difference.
FALSE. There will still be humans around who would have to deal with it. And as far as the Overall Abortion Debate is concerned (any doubts about that continuing for 20+ more years?), the idiocy that only humans can be persons will be permanently put to rest.

"Living" is a construct - tell me what the actual difference between a "living thing" and a nonliving thing, like a rock is?
A LIVING THING IS AN ENTROPIC SHORTCUT. While overall entropy everywhere always increases, living things can reverse it within themselves, while causing even-greater entropic increase around them (the consequence of living things obtaining resources outside themselves, to keep living). Rocks do nothing.

So why should certain arrangements of atoms which we constructively call "living" be privileged over other arrangements of particles?
YOU MIGHT AS WELL ASK WHY THE EARTH IS PRIVILEGED TO EXIST IN THE GOLDILOCKS ZONE. Some things simply are, and that's all there is to it. Which brings us back to what I previously wrote: Nature doesn't care; anything that is possible is allowed to happen.

"Volition" is a moot point, who declared that collections of material particles which contained "volition" should be privileged over ones which don't?
ARE YOU DELIBERATELY IGNORING WHAT I WROTE? "Nature doesn't care; anything that is possible is allowed." There is no "who" and there is no "should". And if you claim there are such things as "who" and "should" with respect to your Question, it is you who must support that Positive Claim with evidence! (see Rule 5 of the link)

As far as I'm aware, no "god" declared this, nor did the flying spaghetti monster - it's just some quaint, faith-based notion you have that "volition" is some sacred cow.
YOU ARE IGNORING WHAT I WROTE! Try again!
 
NO, THAT IS A STUPID LIE. Animals are made from atoms, and are very different from atoms.
What's your point? "Sameness and difference" are a construct, not an inherently existing definition.

You could say diamonds and quartz are both "minerals" if you wanted to, but you could also say they're "different" or not identical.

So atoms are different from rocks are different from insects are different from cows are different from humans... and so on.

The root-word from which "animal" is derived refers to motion. Animals can generate forces within themselves to move about. Atoms only move about as a consequence of external factors.
I'd like to see a source for that.

But regardless, "animals" are collections of cells, we might refer to them as individuals but animals are actually collectives of individual cells working in unison to give life to the entire organism.

The number of cells that comprise a mosquito are "not the same" as the number of cells that comprise a cow, and so on.

So if your argument is based on the idea that "all animals are equal", then that isn't true scientifically speaking.

THE ODDS ARE GOOD. For example, here is some data about the memory capacity of the human brain. Here's some old-ish (2004) data about the growth of storage capacity of hard-disk drives. Currently-available drives are about 1/100 of human-brain capacity. The graph near the start of the capacity-growth article shows that between 1990 and 2000, storage capacity increased 100-fold. If that trend continues, then in about 10 years we can expect hard disk drives to have the same storage capacity as the human brain. There are similar trends for the usage of RAM in computers. Many A.I. researchers think that if we don't have True A.I. in 20 years, the software will be the bottleneck, not the hardware.
Okay, and you can afford to buy one of these robots...? How much will it cost?

FALSE. There will still be humans around who would have to deal with it. And as far as the Overall Abortion Debate is concerned (any doubts about that continuing for 20+ more years?), the idiocy that only humans can be persons will be permanently put to rest.


A LIVING THING IS AN ENTROPIC SHORTCUT. While overall entropy everywhere always increases, living things can reverse it within themselves, while causing even-greater entropic increase around them (the consequence of living things obtaining resources outside themselves, to keep living). Rocks do nothing.

YOU MIGHT AS WELL ASK WHY THE EARTH IS PRIVILEGED TO EXIST IN THE GOLDILOCKS ZONE. Some things simply are, and that's all there is to it. Which brings us back to what I previously wrote: Nature doesn't care; anything that is possible is allowed to happen.
You refute your own argument, since humans being animals are part of nature. Therefore since nature doesn't care, there is no reason why the government should allow abortion if doing so would deny its own self-interest, since that would be an act of altruism, or choosing right over might, or however you put it.

Should a tiger stop preying on deer and treat a dear as its equal since they're "both animals" - if not, then why would humans do the same?
 
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Oh yawn...yawn.
I don't care how you feel about this topic nor about you and the others are here and btw bub...I joined a prayer vigil across the road from a abortion clinic. I believe they also produced black gay and child porn medias but as you say there's no evidence to prove which proves how dirty and trashy abortions are.
Good luck in life and I'm done, I have to look for another abortion clinic and heckle it as well.
(walks away with a smile)

I am experiencing cognitive dissonance here. You say you joined a prayer vigil yet also express the desire to find an abortion clinic to heckle, so I don't believe one word you've said.
 
[part 1 of 2, in reply to Msg #73]

What's your point? So atoms are different from rocks are different from insects are different from cows are different from humans... and so on.
AND YET YOU CLAIMED ANIMALS WERE THE SAME AS ATOMS. Wrongly!

I'd like to see a source for that.
OKAY; I WAS NOT ENTIRELY CORRECT. Here. (Nevertheless, breathing generally involves motion, so I wasn't entirely wrong, either.)

But regardless, "animals" are collections of cells,
NOT ALWAYS. An amoeba or a paramecium is a single-celled animal. They can quite actively move about, seeking resources for survival. A typical bacterium, however, is a single-celled non-animal. It usually just sits there in an environment that tends to bring resources to it (like, say, flowing water).

we might refer to them as individuals but animals are actually collectives of individual cells working in unison to give life to the entire organism.
STILL VERY DIFFERENT FROM ATOMS.

The number of cells that comprise a mosquito are "not the same" as the number of cells that comprise a cow, and so on.
NOT PARTICULARLY RELEVANT. As a class, multicellular organisms are generically similar. The genes that enabled multicelluar organisms to exist are foundational to that class. As a consequence, see this.

So if your argument is based on the idea that "all animals are equal", then that isn't true scientifically speaking.
AGAIN YOU IGNORED WHAT I WROTE. I specified a particular way in which animals are somewhat equal, by having a degree of volition. I most certainly did not say they had the same degree of volition! I did say that there is an assumption about humans, to be considered as generally having a degree of volition that ordinary animals can't match. Why are you Stupidly Lying, claiming I said something I didn't actually say?

Okay, and you can afford to buy one of these robots...? How much will it cost?
IRRELEVANT TO THE POINT. As soon as a True Artificial Intelligence begins to exist, no matter how or when, the "equation" blathered for decades by abortion opponents ("person"="human") will be destroyed.

You refute your own argument,
NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST. I am not responsible for your Stupid Lies regarding what I wrote!
 
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