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Male Opt Out

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No law should be made to stop her but forcing the man or taxpayers to pay for her decision to not be responsible is a horrible status quo.

Women being stuck being the ones getting pregnant and risking their lives sucks and is a horrible status quo.

The law cant fix everything.
 
I thought you said women already had an unfair, unequal opt out. Which is it?

Or what opt out do we need?

And again...feel free to propose a solution where other people dont have to pay for the kids that others knowingly risked producing.

It's definitely a matter of opinion. Your's is to stick it to the taxpayers to pay more.

Mine is to make the responsible parties pay their fair share.

Woah, now! You argued the law is already equal on paper. I'm simply pointing out that, on paper, the law will still be equal. As for the taxpayer thing, you never did address my analogy to forced abortion. Why are you willing to allow taxpayers to foot the bill so women can have determination over their bodies, but you won't make that exception for men?
 
Woah, now! You argued the law is already equal on paper. I'm simply pointing out that, on paper, the law will still be equal. As for the taxpayer thing, you never did address my analogy to forced abortion. Why are you willing to allow taxpayers to foot the bill so women can have determination over their bodies, but you won't make that exception for men?

That's a moot point, I'm not arguing about a fantasy. The taxpayers may get stuck **if the man and the woman dont pay** but they arent if they hold both responsible. But no law is going to be created to end her ability to decide. It factors into nothing but a waste of time in a discussion...basically nothing but sour grapes.

And the law is equal on paper...Opting out isnt possible after there's a kid, the discussion is for *father's* BEFORE birth.

Unless both want to decide after birth to put kid up for adoption and I 100% believe that should and can be a legally equal decision with both involved.
 
Woah, now! You argued the law is already equal on paper. I'm simply pointing out that, on paper, the law will still be equal. As for the taxpayer thing, you never did address my analogy to forced abortion. Why are you willing to allow taxpayers to foot the bill so women can have determination over their bodies, but you won't make that exception for men?

Get ready and brace yourself... lursa is gonna post the lursa two step and post twists and ignore like you cant believe...
 
What makes you think there is anything new to add here that wasnt covered in Renae's thread this week?

There is no way to make it equal under the law *if* the law remains that the govt has zero say in a woman's right to choose.

What is your solution that would make it apply equally to men but not inequally to all the taxpayers that would end up having to assist in the support of that child?

Because there is nothing equal, just, or fair about making the child or the taxpayers suffer because of decisions knowingly made and chosen by the 2 parties directly responsible for that kid ?

Is it your claim that it would be more 'equal' to force those responsibilities on taxpayers? If so, then I object, as a taxpayer, to the exact same inequity that you are describing for men, with the same amount of outrage.

The taxpayers deserve to opt out when the parents are available.

Exactly, taxpayers get screwed without getting laid. :2razz:
 
Yeah, nonsense.

How about men using pre-birth control?

If men do not want to become fathers then either not have sex, or use birth control. To then claim that men should be able to opt out of paying child support is just nonsensical IMHO.

If men do not want to become fathers then either not have sex, or use birth control.
If women do not want to become mothers then either not have sex, or use birth control.


Sounds like the same failed arguments against abortion rights that do not work or make sense
 
Apparently it's better to foist the financial responsibilities onto the taxpayers even if the parents are available to pay. Male or female. And that's equal under the law.

taxpayers are already paying for children and needy families/guardians so thats not a solid argument at all unless you are against it already.

right now
Tax payers pay for children its need for and needy families/guardians

if laws are changed and made more equal
Tax payers pay for children its need for and needy families/guardians

nothing changes in that regard except what/when children/families/guardians may recieve help
 
Well it's your discussion. If you cant blame the child support laws...it appears your solution is a law that passes costs onto taxpayers.

If you think it's not fair to stick it to the father...how on earth can it be fair to stick it to the taxpayers? We didnt produce the kid...where's our 'opt-out?'

Again we are all already paying. are you already against that?
 
That's a moot point, I'm not arguing about a fantasy. The taxpayers may get stuck **if the man and the woman dont pay** but they arent if they hold both responsible. But no law is going to be created to end her ability to decide. It factors into nothing but a waste of time in a discussion...basically nothing but sour grapes.

And the law is equal on paper...Opting out isnt possible after there's a kid, the discussion is for *father's* BEFORE birth.

Unless both want to decide after birth to put kid up for adoption and I 100% believe that should and can be a legally equal decision with both involved.

I think this is third thread where we've locked on this subject. Clearly, we both care about this issue. Are you opposed to child support reform in general or just to the opt-out? Because I'd wager we'd be able to find some common ground in a thread about reform specifically and not about abortion or men's rights.
 
taxpayers are already paying for children and needy families/guardians so thats not a solid argument at all unless you are against it already.

right now
Tax payers pay for children its need for and needy families/guardians

if laws are changed and made more equal
Tax payers pay for children its need for and needy families/guardians

nothing changes in that regard except what/when children/families/guardians may recieve help

That's the thing. In a lot of cases, non-custodial parents are struggling, too, and instead of getting help from the state, they get the jackboot.
 
That's the thing. In a lot of cases, non-custodial parents are struggling, too, and instead of getting help from the state, they get the jackboot.

Yep the whole thing needs reformed from start to finish IMO

Sex education
Foster care
social services for new, expecting and existing families (whether blood or not)
- monetary support
- health care support
- educational support (both for general education, workforce education and household family education)
- job placement support
- mental services support
Medical care: prenatal, abortion and post pregnancy, family/child

and yes including parental laws/rights to make it more fair equal and just

So many short comings IMO and I speak from being a single dad who fought for full/sole custody of his daughter and won it.
 
You know what?

Firstly, I’m not denying that inequalities exists. I’m not appealing to authority. I want to see someone to come up with a legitimate solution that is congruent to our form of government and constitutional construct.

I’m not “your problem or adversary”. But I can’t turn a blind eye to the challenges that will have to be overcome to satisfy all parties involved. When I see bull**** ranting that won’t move this issue toward an equitable solution then I’m going to “opine” what I see as a dead-end solution.

For instance...

There will never be a law that requires doctors to report to some authority that a woman has sought to be tested for pregnancy that it has been determined positive. And that an agent of some authority will determine the fate of the pregnancy.

So, how about the following:

“No medical abortion can be legally performed on a woman who has been verified by a medical provider without said woman disclosing the name of the man whose sperm fertilized the women’s ovum.” The man will be required to be notified and he will make a legal declaration as to whether or not he will opt out of any financial and any future relationship with a child that might be born.

Do you believe that something similar would get past the S.C.?

If that fails then what law could be passed in Congress and the S.C. accepts as Constitutional?

From strictly legal avenues, I opine that one of two things has to happen. An Amendment that suspends women’s current rights the moment a woman becomes pregnant or Congress has to create legislation that allow men to opt out and are decided to be Constitutional.

What is the prevailing law(s) in New Zeland that determines the potential outcomes in these types of dilemmas?

It’s my contention that the solution isn’t going to happen from new laws, high court decision, or Constitutional Amendments.
 
This was addressed in the OP. As such... ignored as it is off topic.

That's bull, you asked my thoughts and I said it is bull crap for someone to want to "opt out" of paying child support. So it is not off topic, you asked opinions and you got mine. If you do not like that, too bad.
 
If men do not want to become fathers then either not have sex, or use birth control.
If women do not want to become mothers then either not have sex, or use birth control.

But the mother does not get to opt out of motherhood if the birth control fails and neither can a father. It may be a really unlucky thing that they have gotten themselves into but opting out is a non issue, is not logical, reasonable or acceptable.
 
I too am in favor of such a plan.
 
The law is not meant to guarantee equal outcomes. Just equal rights and equal responsibilities

Both parents are responsible for providing for their offspring

And as a taxpayer, I want both parents tapped before government funds are accessed.

I agree with opt out to an extent. I think the opt out should be prior to sex. After conception, the physiological risk is 100 percent hers. So a little heads up would be nice,:lol:

I am 100 percent on board with making child support and custody more realistic.
 
That's bull, you asked my thoughts and I said it is bull crap for someone to want to "opt out" of paying child support. So it is not off topic, you asked opinions and you got mine. If you do not like that, too bad.

Again... this was addressed in the OP. If you are unable to understand what a Straw Man is please ask a first year Logic student. :)
 
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