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Male Opt Out

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Peter King said:
Yeah, nonsense.

How about men using pre-birth control?

If men do not want to become fathers then either not have sex, or use birth control. To then claim that men should be able to opt out of paying child support is just nonsensical IMHO.
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This was addressed in the OP. As such... ignored as it is off topic.
 
Lursa said:
AFAIK, child support laws apply equally to men and women. Neither can opt out...it's either custody, joint custody, or child support.

The law is equal, if it's not applied equally, that is the fault of the courts...with mostly male judges.

If the law is not equal in some states or counties, then I believe they should be.

And if a woman has a baby and wants to opt out thru adoption, the laws should be changed to make her inform the father first. (they dont in all states). And if he chooses custody, then he has the right to child support from her.

Again: the law can and is AFAIK, be equal for both sexes for child support.
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It isnt equal if the woman has a legal post conception opt and and the man does not. But you ignore this every time...
 
Peter King said:
Yeah, nonsense.

How about men using pre-birth control?

If men do not want to become fathers then either not have sex, or use birth control. To then claim that men should be able to opt out of paying child support is just nonsensical IMHO.
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If men do not want to become fathers then either not have sex, or use birth control.
If women do not want to become mothers then either not have sex, or use birth control.
 
HonestJoe said:
Why do men (or women) need that ability? I can understand it be considered desirable but I think the word "need" pushes the argument a significant step further which I think requires independent justification.

The circumstances aren't ever fair or equal and it is literally impossible to manufacture equality or fairness in the consequences. Your argument effectively presents the idea that ticking a box and signing a form is equivalent to opting for a serious invasive clinical procedure. That's never going to be the case, however much we'd like to work out a nice neat conclusion that works for everyone.
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Right now it isnt even remotely equal. Why is there such back lash about challenging the staus quo...
 
LadyMoonlight said:
If men do not want to become fathers then either not have sex, or use birth control.
If women do not want to become mothers then either not have sex, or use birth control.
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The topic here is POST CONCEPTION RIGHTS... not birth control.
 
Bodhisattva said:
It isnt equal if the woman has a legal post conception opt and and the man does not. But you ignore this every time...
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That has zero to do with child support. Child support laws are equal, AFAIK, and if they arent, they can be.

There is no child support without a child and it has nothing to do with laws regarding conception, before or after.

Perhaps you have not even articulated the real problem and yet...the outrage, the accusations :)
 
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Bodhisattva said:
and onto the ignore list it is...
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For someone that has had to deal with the laws in court, you wouldnt think you'd have to be reminded of that.

But until you can articulate the actual laws you'd like to implement or change, you cant find a solution.

And there is no opting out of child support because no child support laws apply before there is a child.

:mrgreen:

Now if the fathers-to-be would like to be forced to pay for a woman's care during pregnancy and her childbirth hospital bills...that would be worth discussing....because "post conception" and "pre-birth" the man is not legally obligated to do anything. Huh...and where are all the women crying about 'equality?'
 
Bodhisattva said:
Right now it isnt even remotely equal. Why is there such back lash about challenging the staus quo...
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Because it can't be remotely equal. You're trying to equate pregnancy with a legal agreement. I'm not objecting to the idea of challenging the status quo, I'm objecting to your flawed assumptions and expectations.

I just feel the entire starting point here is flawed. Surely the aim here should be to achieve the least worst outcome for everyone involved rather that some concept of equality that could mean intentionally making the situation worse for someone.
 
Lursa said:
For someone that has had to deal with the laws in court, you wouldnt think you'd have to be reminded of that.

But until you can articulate the actual laws you'd like to implement or change, you cant find a solution.

And there is no opting out of child support because no child support laws apply before there is a child.

:mrgreen:
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Post conception pre birth opt out laws is the issue...
 
HonestJoe said:
Because it can't be remotely equal. You're trying to equate pregnancy with a legal agreement. I'm not objecting to the idea of challenging the status quo, I'm objecting to your flawed assumptions and expectations.

I just feel the entire starting point here is flawed. Surely the aim here should be to achieve the least worst outcome for everyone involved rather that some concept of equality that could mean intentionally making the situation worse for someone.
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Apparently it's better to foist the financial responsibilities onto the taxpayers even if the parents are available to pay. Male or female. And that's equal under the law.
 
Lursa said:
That has zero to do with child support. Child support laws are equal, AFAIK, and if they arent, they can be.

There is no child support without a child and it has nothing to do with laws regarding conception, before or after.

Perhaps you have not even articulated the real problem and yet...the outrage, the accusations :)
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Then both sexes will benefit from the much-needed reforms, including an opt-out.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Then both sexes will benefit from the much-needed reforms, including an opt-out.
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I thought you said women already had an unfair, unequal opt out. Which is it?

Or what opt out do we need?

And again...feel free to propose a solution where other people dont have to pay for the kids that others knowingly risked producing.

It's definitely a matter of opinion. Your's is to stick it to the taxpayers to pay more.

Mine is to make the responsible parties pay their fair share.
 
HonestJoe said:
Because it can't be remotely equal. You're trying to equate pregnancy with a legal agreement. I'm not objecting to the idea of challenging the status quo, I'm objecting to your flawed assumptions and expectations.

I just feel the entire starting point here is flawed. Surely the aim here should be to achieve the least worst outcome for everyone involved rather that some concept of equality that could mean intentionally making the situation worse for someone.
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Sure it can. She can opt out post conception. All it takes is a law and then he can opt out post conceptoion. Easy as pie... equality.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Boring...
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No more discussion? Odd to create a topic and then find exploring it boring.

Dont be a one-trick pony...if it's not the child support laws, are you stuck?
 
Lursa said:
See my edit...and then you can put me back on ignore :lol:
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No. I got over my huff in seconds and edited that whine... ;)
 
Lursa said:
No more discussion? Odd to create a topic and then find exploring it boring.

Dont be a one-trick pony...if it's not the child support laws, are you stuck?
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Naw... i find the attemps to put it onto me... as if it is personal... boring.
 
Lursa said:
Apparently it's better to foist the financial responsibilities onto the taxpayers even if the parents are available to pay. Male or female. And that's equal under the law.
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If she cant afford the child she should be responsible istead of selfish and abort....
 
Bodhisattva said:
Naw... i find the attemps to put it onto me... as if it is personal... boring.
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Well it's your discussion. If you cant blame the child support laws...it appears your solution is a law that passes costs onto taxpayers.

If you think it's not fair to stick it to the father...how on earth can it be fair to stick it to the taxpayers? We didnt produce the kid...where's our 'opt-out?'
 
Bodhisattva said:
If she cant afford the child she should be responsible istead of selfish and abort....
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That's fine with me. Maybe she 'should.'

What law are you proposing to control that?

And if that isnt possible...what is the point of bringing it up?
 
Lursa said:
I thought you said women already had an unfair, unequal opt out. Which is it?

Or what opt out do we need?

And again...feel free to propose a solution where other people dont have to pay for the kids that others knowingly risked producing.

It's definitely a matter of opinion. Your's is to stick it to the taxpayers to pay more.

Mine is to make the responsible parties pay their fair share.
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Sounds like you think the only thing that matters is she be supported no matter how unfair it is to the man or how her selfish desire to give birth affects society...
 
Lursa said:
That's fine with me. Maybe she 'should.'

What law are you proposing to control that?

And if that isnt possible...what is the point of bringing it up?
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No law should be made to stop her but forcing the man or taxpayers to pay for her decision to not be responsible is a horrible status quo.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Sounds like you think the only thing that matters is she be supported no matter how unfair it is to the man or how her selfish desire to give birth affects society...
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Has nothing to do with 'her.'

I cant control her decision or her body.

Neither can you. Neither can whoever knocked her up *and he knows that before sleeping with her.*
 
Bodhisattva said:
Sure it can. She can opt out post conception. All it takes is a law and then he can opt out post conceptoion. Easy as pie... equality.
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So you're saying that an abortion is equal to ticking a box on a form?
 
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