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Pro Life Walk out

Removable Mind said:
You might stop preaching at everyone and simply be a living example of your faith - as long as your not infringing on the others to do the same. “Let God take care of your light work.”, as my grandma use to say.
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I am doing the Lord's work by taking a stand for those least able to protect themselves - the innocent unborn.
 
Logicman said:
I am doing the Lord's work by taking a stand for those least able to protect themselves - the innocent unborn.
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Nah....we can butcher the unborn and get paid. That's America baby
 
Logicman said:
Sure you can, for a while. But all shall be held to account at the Judgment.
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The greatest con ever pulled is just follow all my rules and you will be rewarded with the greatest treasure possible....you just have to die first.

No thanks. LOL
 
Logicman said:
God does. And those who butcher the unborn will be held to account at the Judgment.
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The judgement has nothing to do with us law...
 
Logicman said:
God does. And those who butcher the unborn will be held to account at the Judgment.
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The voice of ignorance.

97.5% of all abortions are when the pea-sized unborn gets flushed painlessly from the womb. And the late term ones are for medical reasons...are you in favor of stopping medically-necessary abortions?
 
Logicman said:
I am doing the Lord's work by taking a stand for those least able to protect themselves - the innocent unborn.
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All talk... if you really cared you would be in Africa saving babies from crocodiles and diseases.
 
Logicman said:
I am doing the Lord's work by taking a stand for those least able to protect themselves - the innocent unborn.
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Why isnt the woman innocent? What is she guilty of?

And the 'innocence' of the unborn is no different than that of a flower or cloud...unable to act or even form any intent. It's an innocence of emptiness...basically you are valuing a vacuum.

Wow, then how much less do you value women? Less than the emptiness of a vacuum. Yup...God's gonna reward that! :roll:
 
Logicman said:
I am doing the Lord's work by taking a stand for those least able to protect themselves - the innocent unborn.
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Really? Are you a social services worker? A foster home? Have you adopted any kids?

What have you done for 'the innocent that cannot protect themselves' besides type?
 
Removable Mind said:
But you need to be keenly aware that the majority of pro-choice women won’t have an abortion but they understand the necessity to have the right to abort, including abortion on demand prior to viability.
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I try not to make assumptions. I generally find it best to ask an interlocutor's position on the subject specifically rather than make some gross generalization about them.

Removable Mind said:
It’s impossible for you to know all of the life circumstances that are the impetus to have an abortion on demand. So to stand in judgment of women you don’t remote know, you don’t even know that they’ve had an abortion and the reason why (whether or not you agree with their reason), is simply saying that you value the yet to be born over the women.
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Just as an aside, I would point out that this is a very poor (if not dangerous) line of reasoning for justifying abortion, or any other act that one might consider horrifically immoral. Putting oneself in another person's shoes can be used to justify any number of horrible things. I try not to ever let myself fall into the trap of empathizing my way to atrocity, or defend the indefensible.

To raise an example, I am going to presume that you are against infanticide (i.e., the intentional killing of already-born infant children), just as I am. Now, it is believed that China's rather horrific One Child policy led to a massive increase of infanticides (particularly of baby girls). Now at first one might shudder at the idea of people intentionally killing their own children. But there were several perfectly logical and, dare I say, understandable reasons for doing so:

Earning power: Men are usually the main income-earners, either because they are more employable or earn higher wages for the same work, or because they are able to do more agricultural work in subsistence economies. Since male babies have a greater income potential, they are less likely to be killed.
Potential pensions: In many societies, parents depend on their children to look after them in old age. But in many of these cultures a girl leaves her parental family and joins her husband's family when she marries. The result is that parents with sons gain extra resources for their old age, when their sons marry, while parents with daughters lose their 'potential pensions' when they marry and move away. This gives parents a strong reason to prefer male children. Some parents (particularly poor ones) who can't afford to support a large family, will kill female babies. Girls are considered a drain on family resources during their childhood without bringing economic benefits later on.
Dowry: Some girl babies are killed so that the family doesn't have to pay a dowry when they get married. In Indian society it is tradition for the parents of the bride to give a dowry to the groom and his family. The dowry consists of large amounts of money and valuable goods. For families with several daughters this can be a serious financial burden.
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Now, with all those reasons, and the miserable circumstances that poor Chinese peasants found themselves in, whose future lives and wellbeing might have depended on having a son rather than a daughter, would you still say that infanticide of girl babies (or any baby) is truly immoral? Weren't the parents justified in killing their newborn daughters? I hope I am not making myself unclear on this matter.

Again, I assert that women have the absolute right to engage physicians to kill and remove their unborn children from their bodies based on their right to bodily autonomy. The reasons and their particular circumstances do not matter to me. The right is there, no matter what the circumstance, and what is more I do not believe one should seek out a license or excuse to exercise one's rights. That is pretty much what makes a right a right: the fact that you do not have to seek out anyone's permission for its exercise. Rather the government has to seek permission to impair your rights. However, they will not receive any form of encouragement, celebration, validation, or comfort from me in making what I consider to be the immoral choice to have someone kill the developing human being growing inside them.

And in the unlikely scenarios that a woman who was seriously contemplating having an abortion decided, for whatever reason, to come to me for my counsel, I would urge them against it on those same moral grounds. Of course, any woman who knew me well enough to feel comfortable in confiding such an extraordinarily painful and personal matter to me would probably have strong doubts on the matter anyway.
 
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Lursa said:
Really? Are you a social services worker? A foster home? Have you adopted any kids?

What have you done for 'the innocent that cannot protect themselves' besides type?
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For one thing, expose the neanderthal morality of the baby butchering, pro-abortion crowd. After that you can submit your questions to prayer.
 
Logicman said:
For one thing, expose the neanderthal morality of the baby butchering, pro-abortion crowd. After that you can submit your questions to prayer.
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So...nothing then...just complaining. How's that working out for you, forty-some years after RvW?

You have no moral High Ground, and God's not fooled. We are supposed to live our faith...not just complain.
 
Logicman said:
For one thing, expose the neanderthal morality of the baby butchering, pro-abortion crowd. After that you can submit your questions to prayer.
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Sorry. What you call baby butchering is completely legal. And is never going away
 
Lursa said:
Really? Are you a social services worker? A foster home? Have you adopted any kids?

What have you done for 'the innocent that cannot protect themselves' besides type?
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If I may ask, what would you say to him had he answered in the affirmative?
 
Felis Leo said:
I try not to make assumptions. I generally find it best to ask an interlocutor's position on the subject specifically rather than make some gross generalization about them.



Just as an aside, I would point out that this is a very poor (if not dangerous) line of reasoning for justifying abortion, or any other act that one might consider horrifically immoral. Putting oneself in another person's shoes can be used to justify any number of horrible things. I try not to ever let myself fall into the trap of empathizing my way to atrocity, or defend the indefensible.

To raise an example, I am going to presume that you are against infanticide (i.e., the intentional killing of already-born infant children), just as I am. Now, it is believed that China's rather horrific One Child policy led to a massive increase of infanticides (particularly of baby girls). Now at first one might shudder at the idea of people intentionally killing their own children. But there were several perfectly logical and, dare I say, understandable reasons for doing so:



Now, with all those reasons, and the miserable circumstances that poor Chinese peasants found themselves in, whose future lives and wellbeing might have depended on having a son rather than a daughter, would you still say that infanticide of girl babies (or any baby) is truly immoral? Weren't the parents justified in killing their newborn daughters? I hope I am not making myself unclear on this matter.

Again, I assert that women have the absolute right to engage physicians to kill and remove their unborn children from their bodies based on their right to bodily autonomy. The reasons and their particular circumstances do not matter to me. The right is there, no matter what the circumstance, and what is more I do not believe one should seek out a license or excuse to exercise one's rights. That is pretty much what makes a right a right: the fact that you do not have to seek out anyone's permission for its exercise. Rather the government has to seek permission to impair your rights. However, they will not receive any form of encouragement, celebration, validation, or comfort from me in making what I consider to be the immoral choice to have someone kill the developing human being growing inside them.

And in the unlikely scenarios that a woman who was seriously contemplating having an abortion decided, for whatever reason, to come to me for my counsel, I would urge them against it on those same moral grounds. Of course, any woman who knew me well enough to feel comfortable in confiding such an extraordinarily painful and personal matter to me would probably have strong doubts on the matter anyway.
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If you want to make an honest effort to discuss this topic then you’ll fair better if you can attempt to use the legal and scientific terms when talking about the yet to be born.

Using term of endearment such as child/children and baby/babies isn’t congruent with medical abortion procedures in the United State of America and its jurisdictions. The moment that these words appear in this particular forum, then the only members who’ll bother to respond are others who have no problem being condescending and self-righteous moralists.

Women in our country aren’t having their child or baby killed and removed from their bodies. It’s an oxymoron. Children and babies don’t reside in wombs.

You’ll gain no attention talking about the way other countries such as China. Yes its government stringently control reproduction engaged in violent practices against their citizens. That’s not happening in the US.
 
Felis Leo said:
If I may ask, what would you say to him had he answered in the affirmative?
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Thank him and tell him that my family has also done so, and we're pro-choice. Fostering special needs infants and adopting 2.

It's a small thing overall but more than complaining on the Internet.
 
Lursa said:
So...nothing then...just complaining. How's that working out for you....
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Wrong again, Lursa. Prayer is a powerful tool. But what would you know, right?

I recall the day in Texas where about a dozen of us were praying for God to stop those who performed late-term abortions.

Within 24 hours, George Richard Tiller ("Tiller the baby killer") was shot dead.

Those who mock and belittle God and his people should beware and tread softly.
 
Logicman said:
Wrong again, Lursa. Prayer is a powerful tool. But what would you know, right?

I recall the day in Texas where about a dozen of us were praying for God to stop those who performed late-term abortions.

Within 24 hours, George Richard Tiller ("Tiller the baby killer") was shot dead.

Those who mock and belittle God and his people should beware and tread softly.
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And how many other times had you prayed before that...were Drs dropping dead?

And how about since then?

But it does seem like you're pretty pleased to think you were responsible for someone's death.
 
Lursa said:
And how many other times had you prayed before that...were Drs dropping dead?

And how about since then?

But it does seem like you're pretty pleased to think you were responsible for someone's death.
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I'm glad that butcher of babies isn't doing that anymore. I would have been pleased if he had lived and had a brain to repent and turn from his abortion practice.

Just remember Jesus' warning to everyone in Luke 13:3: "Unless you repent, you too will perish."
 
Removable Mind said:
If you want to make an honest effort to discuss this topic then you’ll fair better if you can attempt to use the legal and scientific terms when talking about the yet to be born.
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I am more than happy to make honest efforts in my discussions. I do it all the time. But I think the only way to have an honest discussion is to lay out my actual viewpoints and my actual thoughts, however distasteful or unsettling you or anyone else might find them. I will not police the language you choose to use in reference to human beings developing in the womb. Please do not presume to police mine in an effort to conform to your particular set of moral beliefs or in an effort to corral me into the proper ideological framework that must be shared by pro-choice advocates.

Removable Mind said:
Using term of endearment such as child/children and baby/babies isn’t congruent with medical abortion procedures in the United State of America and its jurisdictions. The moment that these words appear in this particular forum, then the only members who’ll bother to respond are others who have no problem being condescending and self-righteous moralists.
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Just to point out, "child" and "baby" are not a terms of endearment. Unless you are from the South, I guess. I use the term "child" (not "baby") because it can refer to a human being at any stage of one's development. You were your parents' child when you were developing in your mother's womb. You were your parents' child when you were born. You are your parents' child now (presuming your parents are hopefully still alive). And you will be your parents' when they have passed and gone and you are left alone to contemplate your mortality.

And since I am a condescending, self-righteous moralist, I welcome the company from all sides that will have me.

Removable Mind said:
Women in our country aren’t having their child or baby killed and removed from their bodies. It’s an oxymoron. Children and babies don’t reside in wombs.
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Really. What did you and your significant other call your children before they were born, pray tell? Or if you have not had children, what has any woman close to you and who was pregnant called what was developing inside of them? "Do you want to feel my stomach? My fetus is kicking!" "I have a zygote developing in me!" perhaps?

Removable Mind said:
You’ll gain no attention talking about the way other countries such as China. Yes its government stringently control reproduction engaged in violent practices against their citizens. That’s not happening in the US.
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The point I was making was a tangential one, in that one should not use the particular circumstances of immoral actors to excuse immoral actions. The reason I brought up the Chinese example is that the people committing infanticide of their new-born daughters were doing so because they genuinely believed (and not totally without good reason) that if the only child they were allowed to have was a daughter, they would be doomed. But that did not make the action of infanticide any less immoral.
 
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Logicman said:
Wrong again, Lursa. Prayer is a powerful tool. But what would you know, right?

I recall the day in Texas where about a dozen of us were praying for God to stop those who performed late-term abortions.

Within 24 hours, George Richard Tiller ("Tiller the baby killer") was shot dead.

Those who mock and belittle God and his people should beware and tread softly.
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Sadly, I lost my faith in God long ago. But I will say this. God did not strike down Dr. George Tiller. Scott Philip Roeder did. A living breathing human being was struck down by a sad, mentally-disturbed man who will never see his daughter again and will spend the rest of his life behind bars. What to you is proof of divine providence is utterly senseless tragedy. The ending of one life, and the further ruination of another's, to say nothing of the devastation to their families. I honestly do not see how you can see it as anything other than that, much less be filled with exultation.

Logicman said:
It is going away, and you'll be there to see it, either on earth or in the hereafter.
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I honestly hope you are right, Logicman. But only if it is through women making the moral choice on their own terms and of their own volition to keep their unborn children alive and carrying them to term, and not through terror and threat of violence.
 
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Felis Leo said:
Sadly, I lost my faith in God long ago. But I will say this. God did not strike down Dr. George Tiller. Scott Philip Roeder did. A living breathing human being was struck down by a sad, mentally-disturbed man who will never see his daughter again and will spend the rest of his life behind bars. What to you is proof of divine providence is utterly senseless tragedy. The ending of one life, and the further ruination of another's, to say nothing of the devastation to their families. I honestly do not see how you can see it as anything other than that, much less be filled with exultation.
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"filled with exultation?" Nope, that's your contention, not mine.

As for God and Tiller, Tiller could have had a divine "hedge" (of protection - read Job chapter 1) around him were he a godly man. He obviously didn't have it. So yeah, God was involved to a degree, but I doubt he ordered the murder.

As for you, sorry you lost your faith but I'd want to ask what lie did you buy into, thus kicking God and Christ to the curb? Love to hear it. You know, a lot of people blame God for tragedy, when they should be blaming Satan.

Felis Leo said:
I honestly hope you are right, Logicman. But only if it is through women making the moral choice on their own terms and of their own volition to keep their unborn children alive and carrying them to term, and not through terror and threat of violence.
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Violence is what is killing the innocent unborn.
 
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