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pro-life[W:1119]

Re: pro-life

I think you are mistaken -horribly.

You will likely find no pro-choicer that thinks a fetus is NOT human life. The fetus is human. Check. The fetus has life. Check.

I am here to tell you a pregnancy is always a potential threat to a woman's life.

I was the right age, good health, with perfect childbearing hips. I thought I was going to have an easy pregnancy. I am here now alive and with functioning kidneys because I had great insurance that allowed me to see an obstetrician who saw what should have been an inconsequential change. If I was in a county clinic, it would have been missed and I would have been told "see you in 4 weeks". I had a doctor that asked for additional testing and found some bad things. When all was said and done.....I had several major complications and surgery to boot.

Think about this. Most women who choose abortion have crappy access to health care. Medicaid will frequently give you a massively overburdened clinic that is difficult to access.

I may not personally believe in abortion....but hell if I am going to make that choice for another woman.
^^^^^^^^^
This is the essence of the abortion argument that so pro-life many fail to grasp.
 
Re: pro-life

If you think abortion is immoral, there is a simple solution:

Dont have one.

I am so pro-choice that I could probably be considered pro-abortion as I believe the world would be a better place with more abortions. But the whole “if you don’t like abortion then don’t have one” argument is a bad one. To a pro-lifer that is like saying “if you think murder is wrong then don’t murder people but don’t tell me I can’t murder people.”
 
Re: pro-life

I don’t care if something is “human life”. I don’t value your life because of your DNA or because you have a beating heart. I value your life because you posses a mind. Until a mind is present it may be a human life, but it isn’t yet a person, legally or morally.
 
Re: pro-life

The only question up for debate when discussing abortion is whether a fetus is a human life. If a fetus is a human life then you have no right to kill it.

1.) its very rare that anybody on either sides denies that a ZEF is human life. Heck with the amount of nutters we have here on both sides ive only ever seen one person deny its human life and we think it was a fake account. So i stop reading there because it really doesnt matter what else is said since your opening claim has failed.

2.) there are many questions the debate has but the foundation is simply about when a person chooses to value a ZEF over the woman or the woman over the ZEF. Its really that simple. They cant be valued equally due to local of ZEF. So we all choose, when and why we value one over the other.

so if you want honest discussion you have to start there. good luck
 
Re: pro-life

How ethical is it to add more kids unnecessarily and thus take away further the chances those kids will get homes?

Sorry, but as someone who is pro-choice myself, this is the worst and dumbest argument for an abortion of all time. Being homeless is not a reason to kill someone. You are not allowed to decide who is suffering enough to kill a perfectly healthy person.

The debate is 1.) is it a human being with all the rights of a human being? 2.) What right does it have to occupy a woman's body against her will? Any argument about the quality of life it would have once born is unquestionably abhorrent. You definitely don't get to make that call.
 
Re: pro-life

Yet, the supposed "pro life" people tend to think its perfectly acceptable for our military to murder civilians, including women and children, all over the world. Oh, its just collateral damage. Many of the same people also want to cut money to the poor, even starving children, and that they should just go get a job (that aren't there). The same people want to treat immigrants risking life and most working hard, many separated from their families, to make a better life for their family, should just be kicked out. Or people from war torn countries should stay there and live under constant thread of death. The list can go on and on

Please, some of you have no foot to stand on by talking about ethics. People who have absolutely no empathy at all, and very little intelligence and rational thinking behind their position. Which is why these types of threads tend to revolve around stupid emotional nonsense and semantics.
 
Re: pro-life

The only question up for debate when discussing abortion is whether a fetus is a human life. If a fetus is a human life then you have no right to kill it. .

wrong. That is not the only question up for debate.
 
Re: pro-life

The only question up for debate when discussing abortion is whether a fetus is a human life. If a fetus is a human life then you have no right to kill it.

Another one without a uterus wanting to dictate to those of us with one what we can or cannot do with the contents of ours. Of course the zef is human life but no human life has a right to live inside of and attached to a person against that person's will. Pregnancy is not a benign condition. It has a huge impact on a woman's body. No woman should be forced to gestate and give birth.
 
Re: pro-life

I did say that if the mother's life is in danger then an abortion would be appropriate. In every other case the only rights that the mother is losing due to pregnancy is convenience while the fetus could potentially lose its right to life. I don't see how the mother's right to convenience trumps the fetus's right to life.

Actually, she'd losing her right to security of the person if abortion were to be banned.
 
Re: pro-life

Sorry, but as someone who is pro-choice myself, this is the worst and dumbest argument for an abortion of all time. Being homeless is not a reason to kill someone. You are not allowed to decide who is suffering enough to kill a perfectly healthy person.

The debate is 1.) is it a human being with all the rights of a human being? 2.) What right does it have to occupy a woman's body against her will? Any argument about the quality of life it would have once born is unquestionably abhorrent. You definitely don't get to make that call.

Yes...I consider quality of life for kids more than quantity. And I'm speaking to the kids already here, waiting, knowing, rather than the unborn.

And it has no rights, including to life or adoption, before birth. The kids waiting, do.
 
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Re: pro-life

Yet, the supposed "pro life" people tend to think its perfectly acceptable for our military to murder civilians, including women and children, all over the world. Oh, its just collateral damage. Many of the same people also want to cut money to the poor, even starving children, and that they should just go get a job (that aren't there). The same people want to treat immigrants risking life and most working hard, many separated from their families, to make a better life for their family, should just be kicked out. Or people from war torn countries should stay there and live under constant thread of death. The list can go on and on

Please, some of you have no foot to stand on by talking about ethics. People who have absolutely no empathy at all, and very little intelligence and rational thinking behind their position. Which is why these types of threads tend to revolve around stupid emotional nonsense and semantics.

Great punch line! :lol:

Ironic doesn't do it justice.
 
Re: pro-life

Sorry, but as someone who is pro-choice myself,

1. this is the worst and dumbest argument for an abortion of all time.
2. Being homeless is not a reason to kill someone.
3. You are not allowed to decide who is suffering enough to kill a perfectly healthy person.

The debate is

4. 1.) is it a human being with all the rights of a human being?
5. 2.) What right does it have to occupy a woman's body against her will?
6. Any argument about the quality of life it would have once born is unquestionably abhorrent.
7. You definitely don't get to make that call.

1. Wrong
2. Being homeless is a great reason to abort
3. If you are talking about aborting then you are wrong
4. Irrelevant
5. None
6. It is very important and completely relevant
7. Wrong
 
Re: pro-life

The supreme court is not the moral arbiter in this country. Just because something is legal doesn't mean that it is morally correct. According to your logic that anything the supreme court says is correct what about the Dred Scott decision? What about Skinner V. Oklahoma where the court essentially ruled that forced sterilization for mentally ill people was ok. Also Roe V. Wade was decided in in 1973 when science was a fraction of what it is now.
 
Re: pro-life

Another one without a uterus wanting to dictate to those of us with one what we can or cannot do with the contents of ours. Of course the zef is human life but no human life has a right to live inside of and attached to a person against that person's will. Pregnancy is not a benign condition. It has a huge impact on a woman's body. No woman should be forced to gestate and give birth.

This logic is absolutely wrong. Evil is still evil no matter what genitalia I have and I can still call it out. Wwas wrong for the North to dictate to the South that it is wrong to hold slaves? After all, what gives them the right to dictate morality to people who are very different from them?
 
Re: pro-life

The supreme court is not the moral arbiter in this country. Just because something is legal doesn't mean that it is morally correct. According to your logic that anything the supreme court says is correct what about the Dred Scott decision? What about Skinner V. Oklahoma where the court essentially ruled that forced sterilization for mentally ill people was ok. Also Roe V. Wade was decided in in 1973 when science was a fraction of what it is now.

If you believe abortion is morally incorrect....by all means do not have an abortion.
 
Re: pro-life

The supreme court is not the moral arbiter in this country. Just because something is legal doesn't mean that it is morally correct. ...snip.....

Morality is a subjective and individual concept which cannot be applied to law. My version is quite different than yours and everyone elses is different than mine....this is actually the whole reason for laws and SCOTUS.
 
Re: pro-life

The supreme court is not the moral arbiter in this country. Just because something is legal doesn't mean that it is morally correct. According to your logic that anything the supreme court says is correct what about the Dred Scott decision? What about Skinner V. Oklahoma where the court essentially ruled that forced sterilization for mentally ill people was ok. Also Roe V. Wade was decided in in 1973 when science was a fraction of what it is now.

I'd like to hear your opinion on how violating most of a woman's rights, up to and including her right to life (as it cannot be predicted or prevented in 86,900 women per year in the US) in order to accord all the same right instead to the unborn...is 'more' moral?

Again, they cannot be treated equally under the law (or morally if you are going for equality)...one or the other's rights would supersede the other's. Would you see women regressed back to 2nd class citizens again? Keep in mind that SCOTUS has ruled on this very issue: considered women as equal to men and recognizing equal rights. They also considered the same for the unborn...and did not find them equal or recognize 'any' rights for the unborn.
 
Re: pro-life

This logic is absolutely wrong. Evil is still evil no matter what genitalia I have and I can still call it out. Wwas wrong for the North to dictate to the South that it is wrong to hold slaves? After all, what gives them the right to dictate morality to people who are very different from them?

Is it not evil to force a woman to remain pregnant against her will? Exactly what would that look like, as enforced by law in the US? What would it entail?
 
Re: pro-life

1.) I did say that if the mother's life is in danger then an abortion would be appropriate.
2.) In every other case the only rights that the mother is losing due to pregnancy is convenience while the fetus could potentially lose its right to life. I don't see how the mother's right to convenience trumps the fetus's right to life.

1.) as soon as theres a conception her life is in danger. sometimes a extremely extremely little danger, sometimes a vastly large amount or danger and the reality is most times we simply dont know we are assuming and guessing.
2.) factually wrong you would be treating the woman as a second class citizen and ranking the ZEF, an unknown entity, none citizen that isnt even viable above her.
just like you op making up retarded strawmen doesnt make a good case. there is no right to convenience nor does anybody claim that, so stating convenience doesnt trump life is pretty silly and an instant fail.

WHat about the woman right to life? you only value it when YOU want to based on criteria YOU pick.

BTW you are FINE to feel that way and value the ZEF over the woman, which it seems obvious you do but it wont fool anybody. Many prolifers are honest and admit that they do, just like prochoicers do also, WE ALL DO. you can be among the honest or you can be outside them. that choice is yours.
 
Re: pro-life

I don't see the point in arguing over word choice because 'person' and 'human' are synonymous. All people are humans and all humans are people. Advocating for 'human rights doesn't mean that you believe that all non-humans don't have any rights at all. All you are advocating for are rights exclusive to humans. As to your link about how most cells in our body are bacterial in nature my question to you would be that if your rationale is that those cells are not human, then what would be wrong with me forcibly removing all those bacterial cells from your body and only leaving your 'human' cells? I would also really like to hear your position (with rationale behind that position) on abortion.

you might want to check around the world prochoice is a human rights position. The majority of the large and objective orgs support prochoice. the only orgs i know that claim otherwise are ones that were birthed through prolife and then called themselves fighting for human rights.
 
Re: pro-life

I understand that abortion is very complicated and complicates the lives of those involved. I'm just making the moral argument. And yes it is binary because if a fetus is a human life you have no right to kill it, and if it is just a random cluster of cells with no moral value then a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with it.

so what about the millions of women that feel motivated to have an abortion based on thier morals and sense of respectability? why do your feelings magically trump theirs? Why do you value your morals over others and think they should be forced to follow you treating them as lessers?
 
Re: pro-life

I am so pro-choice that I could probably be considered pro-abortion as I believe the world would be a better place with more abortions. But the whole “if you don’t like abortion then don’t have one” argument is a bad one. To a pro-lifer that is like saying “if you think murder is wrong then don’t murder people but don’t tell me I can’t murder people.”

Seriously?

Any pro-life advocate who is making the assumption that an act of murder is engaged in based on the beliefs of individuals - rather than individuals recognizing and complying with laws in order to avoid the consequences of a given law - has serious intellectual problems.

The majority of people who believe abortion is murder is derived from religious dogma. They are "taught" to believe that killing any stage of human life prior to birth is against God's will or that a conception is a divine act. But strangely many pro-life make exceptions for government sanctioned murders during the act of wars, law enforcement agencies, and executions imposed by our judicial system.

In other words, Pro-life advocates who believe that abortion is murder "is purely ideological" and not congruent with the laws of the land. They are completely aware of this fact, and despite the facts, many pro-life had rather have the right forcefully impose their religious dogma on everyone else. This type of thinking works great in Theocracies, which subscribes to primarily one religion. But we are a nation ruled by law.

Murder is clearly defined in every state in the nation. The vast majority of abortions performed are done so within the confines of law. Under most circumstances, abortions are NOT murder committed by the women who undergo such a procedure - nor the medical providers who perform them.

All individuals can choose to abide by the law or not, but laws define consequences for engaging in specific behaviors.

So I don't really care if pro-life chooses to ignore lawful rights because of their fundamental religious beliefs.

If a woman is morally opposed to abortion - then don't have one based on her moral stance. If her moral stance conflicts with the laws of the land then she has the right to voice her opinions as to why she's opposed, or she get involved in a movement to change the law.

People should be a living example of their faith or religious beliefs as long as their beliefs don't infringe on the rights of others to do the same.

But let's hope like hell that any woman opposed to abortion and believes it is murder - who is told by someone not to have and abortion because she ideologically believes that it's murder - also believes that the conveyor of that piece of advice - is simultaneously saying that he or she has the right to commit murder (as defined by law) at will, because of his or her ideological beliefs.
 
Re: pro-life

This logic is absolutely wrong. Evil is still evil no matter what genitalia I have and I can still call it out. Wwas wrong for the North to dictate to the South that it is wrong to hold slaves? After all, what gives them the right to dictate morality to people who are very different from them?

Killing is not evil unless you think orcas and lions and such are evil...

The supreme court is not the moral arbiter in this country. Just because something is legal doesn't mean that it is morally correct. According to your logic that anything the supreme court says is correct what about the Dred Scott decision? What about Skinner V. Oklahoma where the court essentially ruled that forced sterilization for mentally ill people was ok. Also Roe V. Wade was decided in in 1973 when science was a fraction of what it is now.

Morals are subjective and that is why the law is objective... i dont care if you think abortion is morally wrong. Not in the slightest.
 
Re: pro-life

1)I did say that if the mother's life is in danger then an abortion would be appropriate.

2)In every other case the only rights that the mother is losing due to pregnancy is convenience while the fetus could potentially lose its right to life. I don't see how the mother's right to convenience trumps the fetus's right to life.

1) In the US every year, 86,900 women die or suffer severe health damage (stroke, kidney failure, aneurysm, pre-eclampsia, etc) due to pregnancy/childbirth. Obviously these are the ones that, even with access to abortion, still died or were seriously harmed. These things cannot be predicted or prevented. Do you believe that the govt has a right OR the moral authority to force women to take this risk against their will?

2) It seems you have not thought this through. How would the govt determine if a woman was pregnant, planning an abortion, and then prevent it? Think about ALL the Constitutional rights of *all child-bearing age* women that would be violated on a daily basis. Most prominently, our rights to due process and privacy. (very clear in the 14th amendment). There is no law against becoming pregnant...therefore no grounds for due process. Miscarriages occur all the time...sometimes women dont even realize when it happens. Women no longer even need to have pregnancies confirmed by Drs anymore...over the counter tests are very accurate...so if a woman needed to terminate a pregnancy, she wouldnt even contact a Dr. (just a few examples)
 
Re: pro-life

This logic is absolutely wrong.
BRAGGING ABOUT YOURSELF, I SEE. Tsk, tsk!

Evil is still evil no matter what genitalia I have and I can still call it out.
YOU CAN STILL BE WRONG. Just because you claim something is evil (or if someone else makes such a claim), that doesn't mean the claim is correct. Why don't you try supporting the claim with some evidence, eh?

Was wrong for the North to dictate to the South that it is wrong to hold slaves?
APPLES AND ORANGES. Slavery is about negatively affecting persons. It is considered wrong because almost every person does not want to be negatively affected, and thus anyone claiming some kind of right to do such things to another person, could instead become a victim. Abortion, however, never targets any person for negative affect. It only targets an animal-class entity, an unborn human. That entity might, just like most other animals, also have some sort of desire to avoid being negatively affected, but persons routinely ignore the desires of animals. We routinely use bug spray. We routinely mow grassy lawns without considering how many insects get chopped by lawnmower blades. We routinely put worms on fishing hooks. We routinely kill oodles of animals for food. Why should the animal desires of an unborn human be respected, but not the animal desires of billions of other animals?
 
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