Student Planning Abortion Protest After School Shooting Walkout

Felis Leo said:

I think it is certainly arguable. I do not think protests should be allowed (or disallowed) on the basis of what we personally consider reasonable, because then we will only ever allow political expression on the basis of particular social, political and cultural biases. Either we say "protests during school hours are wrong" or they are not. ....

Click to expand...

I disagree. The school walkout was NOT a protest it was about making school buildings safer. It was not political.

The students felt more could have been done to make their school safer.

They used the walkout to fight for things like bulletproof glass in classrooms door. The school shooter shot out the glass in classroom doors and then shot at the students and staff that were in the classrooms.

After the Parkland shooting I am thinking perhaps hurricane windows should be required on the outside windows of schools even in states where there are no hurricanes.

From the following article:

Sources: Hurricane-Proof Window May Have Prevented Additional Deaths In Florida School Shooting

PARKLAND, Fla. (CBSNewYork/CBS News) — A hurricane-proof window may have prevented the shooter in a deadly Valentine’s Day massacre at a high school in South Florida from killing additional people, sources tell CBS Miami’s Jim DeFede

Investigators believe 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz tried to make a sniper’s nest by shooting out a window in a third-floor stairwell.

He fired 16 rounds into the glass, but the hurricane-proof material didn’t shatter. Sources tell CBS Miami Cruz then reloaded only to have his gun jam. With police closing in, Cruz dropped the weapon and exited the school with other students.

Click to expand...

Hurricane-Proof Windows Prevented Further Bloodshed In Fla. Shooting « CBS New York

Felis Leo said:

Well, if you believe that what is being killed and removed from the womb is merely a human-shaped clump of cells, and nothing more then of course it is not equivalent to children being gunned down in a classroom. But if one believes that fetuses are human life, and it is unborn children that are being killed in the womb, then there is no comparison by that metric. Literally a thousand times more fetuses are being killed in the womb than children in classrooms yearly.

Click to expand...

The right to choose has nothing to do with what I believe. The right to choose means every individual woman can decide what she believes and proceed based on that.

The pro-life are sinking really low if they want to compete for air time with high school shooting victims. It's just in poor taste and lacks decency.

Renae said:

Student Planning Abortion Protest After School Shooting Walkout « CBS Sacramento

Oh let's see if these kids are considered brave, and their "voices should be heard".

Click to expand...

No way. It doesn't fit the left-wing's agenda. They will, no doubt, slam this girl for exercising her first amendment rights. They are really good at talking out of both sides of their mouth...

You see, most leftist gun control activists only care about a murdered baby if the mother kills it by shooting it... That way, they can count it among gun crime statistics - as they try to dismantle the second amendment. "Legal" murder of babies is cool with most of them.

Meanwhile, abortion advocates hide behind a very loose definition of the 14th Amendment - as they support the murder of 650,000+ babies every year...

Lefties have a love/hate relationship with the U.S. Constitution.

SoulFire77 said:

No way. It doesn't fit the left-wing's agenda. They will, no doubt, slam this girl for exercising her first amendment rights. They are really good at talking out of both sides of their mouth...

You see, most leftist gun control activists only care about a murdered baby if the mother kills it by shooting it... That way, they can count it among gun crime statistics - as they try to dismantle the second amendment. "Legal" murder of babies is cool with most of them.

Meanwhile, abortion advocates hide behind a very loose definition of the 14th Amendment - as they support the murder of 650,000+ babies every year...

Lefties have a love/hate relationship with the U.S. Constitution.

Click to expand...

There are no 'babies' killed during an abortion. If you cant make a reasonable examination of the issue without being emotional, you arent viewing it rationally.

That doesnt mean you cant view it from either side, but it's evidence that you are not using rational or unbaised info to form your opinions.

And that 'loose definition' applies to all family, reproductive, and marital protections.

minnie616 said:

I disagree. The school walkout was NOT a protest it was about making school buildings safer. It was not political.

Click to expand...

And I must respectfully rejoin: When one makes a demand upon government, any demand whatsoever, I would contend that makes it political by default. And even beyond that, I do not think it can be seriously argued that many of the students walking out were not doing so in protest and it was characterized as an act of protest in many respectable publications and news outlets.

minnie616 said:

The students felt more could have been done to make their school safer.

They used the walkout to fight for things like bulletproof glass in classrooms door. The school shooter shot out the glass in classroom doors and then shot at the students and staff that were in the classrooms.

After the Parkland shooting I am thinking perhaps hurricane windows should be required on the outside windows of schools even in states where there are no hurricanes.

From the following article:

Sources: Hurricane-Proof Window May Have Prevented Additional Deaths In Florida School Shooting



Hurricane-Proof Windows Prevented Further Bloodshed In Fla. Shooting « CBS New York

Click to expand...

I do not disagree with these points, certainly, or some of the solutions offered to prevent gun deaths. But I would still characterize this as a political protest nonetheless.

Lursa said:

There are no 'babies' killed during an abortion. If you cant make a reasonable examination of the issue without being emotional, you arent viewing it rationally.

That doesnt mean you cant view it from either side, but it's evidence that you are not using rational or unbaised info to form your opinions.

And that 'loose definition' applies to all family, reproductive, and marital protections.

Click to expand...

*** Notice how disturbed they get when you start using terms like "murder" (which abortion is), and -gasp- "babies" (which is what they are).

If you think 650,000 lives ended before they can begin is not an emotional issue, you are so far down the rabbit hole - you might not ever climb your way back out of it. You should get a clue, and quit deceiving yourself.

Lursa said:

There are no 'babies' killed during an abortion. If you cant make a reasonable examination of the issue without being emotional, you arent viewing it rationally.

That doesnt mean you cant view it from either side, but it's evidence that you are not using rational or unbaised info to form your opinions.

And that 'loose definition' applies to all family, reproductive, and marital protections.

Click to expand...

Being new to this forum, I realize that perhaps you have discussed this ad nauseam, but I must ask: What, if anything, do you believe is being killed when an abortion takes place? Is it merely an operation removing unwanted tissue, like having one's appendix removed and nothing more?

Felis Leo said:

Being new to this forum, I realize that perhaps you have discussed this ad nauseam, but I must ask: What, if anything, do you believe is being killed when an abortion takes place? Is it merely an operation removing unwanted tissue, like having one's appendix removed and nothing more?

Click to expand...

A fetus dies with abortion.

Abortion may end the life of a fetus, but it is not murder.

Felis Leo said:

And I must respectfully rejoin: When one makes a demand upon government, any demand whatsoever, I would contend that makes it political by default. And even beyond that, I do not think it can be seriously argued that many of the students walking out were not doing so in protest and it was characterized as an act of protest in many respectable publications and news outlets.




I do not disagree with these points, certainly, or some of the solutions offered to prevent gun deaths. But I would still characterize this as a political protest nonetheless.

Click to expand...

I still respectfully disagree.

They did not demand the government do anything during the walkout.

They were showing respect to those who died and calling attention to fact our schools could be improved and made safer for students and staff.

SoulFire77 said:

*** Notice how disturbed they get when you start using terms like "murder" (which abortion is), and -gasp- "babies" (which is what they are).

If you think 650,000 lives ended before they can begin is not an emotional issue, you are so far down the rabbit hole - you might not ever climb your way back out of it. You should get a clue, and quit deceiving yourself.

Click to expand...

I'm not disturbed, but it is creepy to think of people intentionally imagining "little babies" inside women they dont even know. What the heck is the purpose of that besides self-righteous self-indulgent judgement?

And can you imagine the costs to society if, every year, an additional 3/4 of a million babies are born that are unwanted and unaffordable??? Good lord...there are over 100,000 kids awaiting adoption in the US now...and millions in foster care.

What is the point of encouraging that?

And if that many women feel they MUST have abortions...do you really think any legislation on earth is going to stop them? In most cases, it is a matter of enabling a better, more secure life for themselves and their current (or future) families. It's not some coin toss for fun.

Felis Leo said:

Being new to this forum, I realize that perhaps you have discussed this ad nauseam, but I must ask: What, if anything, do you believe is being killed when an abortion takes place? Is it merely an operation removing unwanted tissue, like having one's appendix removed and nothing more?

Click to expand...

I realize that the unborn embryo or fetus is being killed.

And you are right about the discussion.

In terms of a person's attitude about the procedure...I guess you'd have to ask the individual women.

Lursa said:

I'm not disturbed, but it is creepy to think of people intentionally imagining "little babies" inside women they dont even know. What the heck is the purpose of that besides self-righteous self-indulgent judgement?

And can you imagine the costs to society if, every year, an additional 3/4 of a million babies are born that are unwanted and unaffordable??? Good lord...there are over 100,000 kids awaiting adoption in the US now...and millions in foster care.

What is the point of encouraging that?

And if that many women feel they MUST have abortions...do you really think any legislation on earth is going to stop them? In most cases, it is a matter of enabling a better, more secure life for themselves and their current (or future) families. It's not some coin toss for fun.

Click to expand...

"Judgment"... There's another word I would sweat over if I was a woman who has had an abortion.

I once knew a woman personally who had six abortions. She used the procedure like birth control, as to not interfere with her acting career. Once I knew that about her, my family cut ties with her. She might as well have painted her hands red, because that's how they looked to me from then on.

Give me all the Nazi/eugenics arguments you want... You are killing a baby in the womb, and (by your own admission) preventing an "unwanted and unaffordable" life from burdening society.

It's sin, which is why there is always this Orwellian newspeak effort to change the terms it is discussed with. It disturbs the conscious too much, otherwise.

Looks like this thread is no longer about school walkouts.

The thread has been moved to the abortion forum.

SoulFire77 said:

"Judgment"... There's another word I would sweat over if I was a woman who has had an abortion.

I once knew a woman personally who had six abortions. She used the procedure like birth control, as to not interfere with her acting career. Once I knew that about her, my family cut ties with her. She might as well have painted her hands red, because that's how they looked to me from then on.

Give me all the Nazi/eugenics arguments you want... You are killing a baby in the womb, and (by your own admission) preventing an "unwanted and unaffordable" life from burdening society.

It's sin, which is why there is always this Orwellian newspeak effort to change the terms it is discussed with. It disturbs the conscious too much, otherwise.

Click to expand...

Ah...I see.

I have no problems with you following your own religious beliefs.

But as you know, here in America, your religious beliefs should not be forced on others and IMO, it's a sin to vote that way.

God gave us free will to follow His Word...it would be the height of arrogance to force His Word on others when even He chooses not to.

As a pro-choice supporter, I believe in letting a woman follow her own beliefs on this. She may choose to remain pregnant or have an abortion as she believes.

minnie616 said:

Looks like this thread is no longer about school walkouts.

The thread has been moved to the abortion forum.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I thought it already was...I didnt look and it just comes up in my Participating list.

Apologies.

year2late said:

A fetus dies with abortion.

Abortion may end the life of a fetus, but it is not murder.

Click to expand...

Well, I do not contend that abortion is murder, any more than authorizing the pulling the plug on a person who is in a persistent vegetative state is an act murder. My only point is that it is still intentionally ending a human life. What moral value one decides to place on that life and the act of ending it is a matter left to individuals and philosophers.

Lursa said:

I'm not disturbed, but it is creepy to think of people intentionally imagining "little babies" inside women they dont even know. What the heck is the purpose of that besides self-righteous self-indulgent judgement?

Click to expand...

Well that, and to frame a moral issue and appeal to people's emotional sensibilities. I mean, when we use the word "fetus", "embryo", "zygote", etc. in this context it helps desensitize us to what is happening when human life is being ended. The words "Killing an unborn child" sparks a different set of emotions within most of us than does "terminating a pregnancy" or "aborting a zygote."

Lursa said:

And can you imagine the costs to society if, every year, an additional 3/4 of a million babies are born that are unwanted and unaffordable??? Good lord...there are over 100,000 kids awaiting adoption in the US now...and millions in foster care.

Click to expand...

I think that is an argument, or perhaps a concern, is in danger of proving too much. If a baby is born unwanted and unaffordable (and let us say, for the sake of argument, that the mother wanted to abort the child originally but was not able to for any number of reasons), what is the moral argument against not allowing the child to be euthanized post-birth?

Lursa said:

What is the point of encouraging that?

Click to expand...

I do not think the argument against abortion necessarily encourages that, because that is more of an argument for (or against (if anyone could possible be against)) responsible safe sex and perhaps proper sex education and access to contraceptives.

Felis Leo said:

I think that is an argument, or perhaps a concern, is in danger of proving too much. If a baby is born unwanted and unaffordable (and let us say, for the sake of argument, that the mother wanted to abort the child originally but was not able to for any number of reasons), what is the moral argument against not allowing the child to be euthanized post-birth?

Click to expand...

The Constitution.

There is a moral argument for following the laws created by a democracy and, under our Constitution, once born the child has a right to life

Lursa said:

Ah...I see.

I have no problems with you following your own religious beliefs.

But as you know, here in America, your religious beliefs should not be forced on others and IMO, it's a sin to vote that way.

God gave us free will to follow His Word...it would be the height of arrogance to force His Word on others when even He chooses not to.

As a pro-choice supporter, I believe in letting a woman follow her own beliefs on this. She may choose to remain pregnant or have an abortion as she believes.

Click to expand...

Not forcing anybody to anything... I don't even think "outlawing" abortion is the answer (we outlawed murder already, but people just keep on killing each other)...

I would be happy if we could just stop shouting abortion's praises from the rooftops, like its not an emotionally devastating act that often leaves women physically scarred and wracked with guilt for the rest of their lives.

Lursa said:

In general, the protests were for school safety and as a memorial for the kids lost in the FL shooting. Besides guns kids were asking for better school security, more guards, and engaging the mental health issue. I saw them and heard them on the news.

Pro-gun kids protested too.

Click to expand...

then the kids didn’t get your memo because they mostly were talking about gun control. It was an illogical leap which makes the abortion protest that much more valid


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Felis Leo said:

Well that, and to frame a moral issue and appeal to people's emotional sensibilities. I mean, when we use the word "fetus", "embryo", "zygote", etc. in this context it helps desensitize us to what is happening when human life is being ended. The words "Killing an unborn child" sparks a different set of emotions within most of us than does "terminating a pregnancy" or "aborting a zygote."


I think that is an argument, or perhaps a concern, is in danger of proving too much. If a baby is born unwanted and unaffordable (and let us say, for the sake of argument, that the mother wanted to abort the child originally but was not able to for any number of reasons), what is the moral argument against not allowing the child to be euthanized post-birth?



I do not think the argument against abortion necessarily encourages that, because that is more of an argument for (or against (if anyone could possible be against)) responsible safe sex and perhaps proper sex education and access to contraceptives.

Click to expand...

Stages of development (even after birth) is a scientific designation...and science is objective, it applies no value.

How we view...and create laws around...those stages of development is subjective. And that requires the consideration of many factors....

The interesting thing here, that you and Soul 77 exemplify (which is the norm) only discuss the effects of abortion on the unborn. Society and the law need to consider the Constitution and women's rights and society. And reality.

The born and the unborn cannot be treated equally under the law (or ethically IMO). So while I respect a person's choice in valuing one or the other, what I notice that almost without exception, pro-life people refuse to admit that they value the unborn more.

For myself, while I value the unborn, I value women...all born people...more.

But it really comes down to: "If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women."

And each person needs to decide this for themselves. But what I find annoying is that pro-life people do insist over and over that they value both equally...while never acknowledging that while it might seem nice in 'their minds,' it's not possible in real life. And it enables them to ignore the impacts their 'choice' would have on women, if they had their way legislatively.

Nobody 'likes' abortion. But I see no reason not to be honest about the realities of it. By ignoring...or diminishing...the impacts of pregnancy and childbirth and motherhood on women, pro-life people are enabled in their self-righteous outrage.

When asked what legal basis they'd offer to SCOTUS to reconsider the unborn as equal and recognizing rights for them....they have nothing (when asked repeatedly) when they have to take women's Constitutional rights into consideration (or justify violating them).

When asked to justify the actual realities and impacts on women...they deny and then disappear. After all, they arent the ones that will live with the consequences. That makes it easy to be self-righteous.

Stopandthink said:

then the kids didn’t get your memo because they mostly were talking about gun control. It was an illogical leap which makes the abortion protest that much more valid


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Which protest are you referring to? Overall, in the media, I saw kids being interviewed talking about guns and mental illness and school security.

SoulFire77 said:

Not forcing anybody to anything... I don't even think "outlawing" abortion is the answer (we outlawed murder already, but people just keep on killing each other)...

I would be happy if we could just stop shouting abortion's praises from the rooftops, like its not an emotionally devastating act that often leaves women physically scarred and wracked with guilt for the rest of their lives.

Click to expand...

I have never seen anyone praising or even promoting abortion. We all have to make difficult, unpleasant decisions in life. That doesnt mean they're wrong...and it doesnt mean they dont have consequences. But we make them in the belief that they'll lead to a better future. Much like divorce...one of the hardest things a person does in life...it's a difficult decision, and painful, but made in the belief that it's in the best interests of the family in the long run.

Btw, I'm not one of the people that has these sources but the fact is that most women do not end up "physically scarred and wracked with guilt" the rest of their lives.

Lursa said:

I have never seen anyone praising or even promoting abortion. We all have to make difficult, unpleasant decisions in life. That doesnt mean they're wrong...and it doesnt mean they dont have consequences. But we make them in the belief that they'll lead to a better future. Much like divorce...one of the hardest things a person does in life...it's a difficult decision, and painful, but made in the belief that it's in the best interests of the family in the long run.

Btw, I'm not one of the people that has these sources but the fact is that most women do not end up "physically scarred and wracked with guilt" the rest of their lives.

Click to expand...

People praise and promote abortion all the time! They bake fetus-shaped cookies and hold round table discussions on why abortion should remain legal, even!

I think you are confusing the easy choice with the difficult one... Keeping the baby requires more work, more money, more courage, more of everything. It's a convenient out for women too lazy, or too stupid to manage their own birth control.

The fact that you are "not one of the people that has... sources" is self-evident, because you are dead wrong. Have you ever heard of PASS?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/somatic-psychology/201010/post-abortion-stress-syndrome-pass-does-it-exist


And, just in case you thought I might be joking, here are the cookies...

SoulFire77 said:

Not forcing anybody to anything... I don't even think "outlawing" abortion is the answer (we outlawed murder already, but people just keep on killing each other)...

I would be happy if we could just stop shouting abortion's praises from the rooftops, like its not an emotionally devastating act that often leaves women physically scarred and wracked with guilt for the rest of their lives.

Click to expand...

Who is shouting it's praises?

And frankly unwanted pregnancy is an emotionally devastating situation.

I know of people who have had abortions. Many years later they are fine. it is not something they dwell on.

On the other hand I know 2 women who have adopted out children. Both suffer on a regular basis . One has been in and out of therapy for over 40 years over it.

Unwanted pregnancy in and of itself is traumatic. The answer is not the same for everyone.