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Pro Choice

Scrabaholic said:
Why is it that almost every thread in this forum gets hijacked by this argument????
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Because the more 'rights' women 'seem' to get, the more men seem to feel that we have control over them and in all of history, that's not been the case.

The 'meToo movement has really riled them up too.

And while no one's saying it...look at the screaming and horror over gun violence...and then look at 99% of who commits gun violence? Really disturbed males...males with self-esteem issues, rejected men, males that blame everyone else for their failures, men who seem to think they have no power or control in life. Women were the last bastion of control that they seemed to have control over, now that blacks have equality and are beginning to actually gain ground socio-economically (yeah!) ANd they resent that too.
 
Lursa said:
So then men should consciously make a 'reproductive' decision. Are you saying that men are not capable of this? That they cant decide if it's smart to risk 18 yrs of child support or not?

Because they can. You know that. What you dont like is that it means men can no longer have sex without consequences anymore. Some men still feel *entitled* to sex without consequences...but that ship has sailed. Now you will be held responsible for your reproductive decisions just like women are and always have been. Do you feel that men should be entitled to sex without consequences?

Sounds pretty equal to me.

Can you please, instead of avoiding it, directly answer the questions in bold?
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Everything you just described is something that women have. My answer to your question in bold is that men and women both have this choice when they have sex. There is no reason to discriminate against men by allowing women to have a choice after sex that men do not. I have repeatedly said this and you have repeatedly ignored my answer.

Either men and women should both have a choice, or women do not deserve the right to an abortion.
 
Celebrity said:
Everything you just described is something that women have. My answer to your question in bold is that men and women both have this choice when they have sex. There is no reason to discriminate against men by allowing women to have a choice after sex that men do not. I have repeatedly said this and you have repeatedly ignored my answer.

Either men and women should both have a choice, or women do not deserve the right to an abortion.
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Men do have that choice when they have sex.

And you've been told this a millions times...do you think your useless whiny point will sound different now?...women's reproductive choices are biologically different. They are physically different and they occur at different times.

And pregnancy is a fantastic reason to 'allow' women to have different choices than men...unless you feel that in order to make it equal: the father must suffer ALL the same consequences as the pregnant woman. Including, he's killed if she dies. How does that sound? Crummy right? But it's equal and that is what you believe is ALL IMPORTANT. So...should we make this law so that "things are equal?"

Btw, did you know...men are not held responsible for any medical costs for a woman's pregnancy. That is not equal...nor are women demanding it. (Heh heh...you are still trying to play the male victim card.

If men want equality, they have it. Both men and women must decide BEFORE sex if they dont want to pay the consequences for a pregnancy. Perfectly equal. Again...biology just makes a woman's choices different. YOUR answer isnt anything but a 'let men have sex without consequences' card. And you have repeatedly ignored MY question about 'why should men be entitled to sex without consequences?" when women NEVER are. How is that equal?

Are you saying that men should be entitled to have sex without consequences (even tho, unequally, women cannot)? Yes or no? A direct answer for once please.

Are you saying that men are incapable of protecting themselves by making a choice BEFORE having sex? Yes or no...a direct answer please.

Tough questions...more than your oversimplified whining that 'it's not equal for men!' Let's see your answers to the questions.
 
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Lursa said:
Men do have that choice when they have sex.
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Women also have that choice when they have sex.

Why should women have any more choices than men?

Please answer the question about discrimination against men, in bold.
 
Celebrity said:
Women also have that choice when they have sex.

Why should women have any more choices than men?

Please answer the question about discrimination against men, in bold.
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:lol: Holy ****, really?
 
Celebrity said:
Women also have that choice when they have sex.

Why should women have any more choices than men?

Please answer the question about discrimination against men, in bold.
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Because they get pregnant....men cannot. That is biological.

So then why cant women decide to stay pregnant or not? It affects their future, their health, their very life.

If men got pregnant...and in some cases they do now...I agree that their choices should be exactly the same

So if the biological factors were the same, so would the equality....not a single bit of sexism or discrimination.

It's a simple answer and one that makes me wonder if you are too.

Now...I asked you questions that once again, you avoided: please answer them:


--unless you feel that in order to make it equal: the father must suffer ALL the same consequences as the pregnant woman. Including, he's killed if she dies. How does that sound? Crummy right? But it's equal and that is what you believe is ALL IMPORTANT. So...should we make this law so that "things are equal?"

--Are you saying that men should be entitled to have sex without consequences (even tho, unequally, women cannot)? Yes or no? A direct answer for once please.

--Are you saying that men are incapable of protecting themselves by making a choice BEFORE having sex? Yes or no...a direct answer please.
 
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Celebrity said:
Why not just make sexually active citizens apply for a permit to raise children? You can still choose what to do with your body, but the state takes custody of the child if you exceed your legal capacity in child rearing. Happy now?

Related question which I stole from another forum (found on Google): Should there be a test or course that a person must pass before they can become a parent?
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Interesting question. I think the key word here is "choice."

The pro-choice movement believes you can choose to terminate a living, breathing fetus - choice
The pro-choice movement believe you can choose your gender - choice
The pro-choice movement believes you can choose to redefine the definition of marriage

Despite this, the pro-choice movement does not believe that a man or woman is in true control of their destiny. They believe you are biologically constrained by your sexual urges, your sexual orientation. For some reason, they do not comprehend the idea that these people are living a chosen lifestyle that dictates their future.

The government needs to stay out of the affairs that interfere with people's freedom and choice however as I stated before, your right to choose ends when it interferes with another's life.
 
Bucky said:
Interesting question. I think the key word here is "choice."

The pro-choice movement believes you can choose to terminate a living, breathing fetus - choice
The pro-choice movement believe you can choose your gender - choice
The pro-choice movement believes you can choose to redefine the definition of marriage

Despite this, the pro-choice movement does not believe that a man or woman is in true control of their destiny. They believe you are biologically constrained by your sexual urges, your sexual orientation. For some reason, they do not comprehend the idea that these people are living a chosen lifestyle that dictates their future.

The government needs to stay out of the affairs that interfere with people's freedom and choice however as I stated before, your right to choose ends when it interferes with another's life.
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Mostly wrong (except for your last sentence)

The pro-choice movement is ONLY about abortion

--and--

It's her choice that enables her to determine her own future. Not a future dictated by her body, other people, or the govt.

She chooses a lifestyle with a child or without.
 
Lursa said:
Mostly wrong (except for your last sentence)

The pro-choice movement is ONLY about abortion

--and--

It's her choice that enables her to determine her own future. Not a future dictated by her body, other people, or the govt.

She chooses a lifestyle with a child or without.
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Planned Parenthood helped funded an anti gun rally for the kids in Florida.

How are abortions and gun control related?
 
Celebrity said:
Why not just make sexually active citizens apply for a permit to raise children? You can still choose what to do with your body, but the state takes custody of the child if you exceed your legal capacity in child rearing. Happy now?

Should there be a test or course that a person must pass before they can become a parent?
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This is all kind of nonsensical. What does this have to do with being pro-choice? How exactly do you plan on enforcing this silliness? And why would you even want to?
 
Celebrity said:
Why not just make sexually active citizens apply for a permit to raise children? You can still choose what to do with your body, but the state takes custody of the child if you exceed your legal capacity in child rearing. Happy now?

Related question which I stole from another forum (found on Google): Should there be a test or course that a person must pass before they can become a parent?
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I think that this question is interesting in that it is something that seems to unite people both on both the right and the left in revulsion against it, if perhaps for slightly different reasons.

First off, why should I be happy with such a thing? What social ill are you proposing to cure by such an extraordinarily great increase of government interference into the most intimate part of our lives, how and when we decide to raise children? Whether one is pro-choice or pro-life seems to be irrelevant, because this is the government giving its license as to who may and who may not have children or raise children. The idea that people can have their children taken away from them by the government, and more insidious, have to apply for licenses from the government, is a totalitarian level of control that no decent human being (liberal, progressive or conservative) who has any grasp of western liberal values should tolerate.

Because by granting the government such a license, how are such licenses granted? Are expectant couples means-tested? Perhaps the government runs a credit check to see if they can afford children? Or perhaps the government looks at the potential parents' political views or affiliation, and if they voted the wrong way in the last election, their applications take a longer time to process...or are denied outright. Perhaps an entire generation of kids who would have been raised in liberal households or, alternatively, conservative households are prevented from being born during one administration or another?

So no. I would not be made "happy" by such a process, whatever the goals motivating it. And I would seriously question the intentions and moral foundations of anyone who would be made happy by such a totalitarian method. And there should be no such "test" because who exactly would administer to it, and what standards would be used?
 
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Bucky said:
The Internet.
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So you made up another post? We just expect you to lie at this point, so I dont know why you even bother posting without including sources.
 
Lursa said:
So you made up another post? We just expect you to lie at this point, so I dont know why you even bother posting without including sources.
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At the March For Our Lives on March 24, hundreds of thousands of people flooded Washington, D.C., and satellite marches across the country to protest gun violence — a public health crisis that claims an average of 96 lives every day. As young people shared their stories of loss, grief, and survival, the nation listened.

Now it’s Congress’s turn. We’re calling on our lawmakers to listen to these advocates, support gun violence prevention research, and take informed action to protect our communities. Everyone deserves to lead a life that is healthy and free from violence.
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https://www.plannedparenthoodaction...r-our-lives-and-the-fight-to-end-gun-violence

Here you go.

It is nice to know Lursa you support gun control!
 
Lursa said:
So you made up another post? We just expect you to lie at this point, so I dont know why you even bother posting without including sources.
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Do you value reproductive freedom more than individual gun rights? Which one do you value more?
 
Bucky said:
https://www.plannedparenthoodaction...r-our-lives-and-the-fight-to-end-gun-violence

Here you go.

It is nice to know Lursa you support gun control!
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So, nowhere does it say that they funded anything:
Bucky said:
Planned Parenthood helped funded an anti gun rally for the kids in Florida.

How are abortions and gun control related?
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However the article did show that PP cares about the lives of the born as well as the unbor (the answer to your question)...so they show more consideration for the unwanted and unplanned kids AFTER they're born than many pro-life people do!

Thanks again Bucky!
 
Bucky said:
Do you value reproductive freedom more than individual gun rights? Which one do you value more?
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Why do I need to choose?
 
Lursa said:
So, nowhere does it say that they funded anything:


However the article did show that PP cares about the lives of the born as well as the unbor (the answer to your question)...so they show more consideration for the unwanted and unplanned kids AFTER they're born than many pro-life people do!

Thanks again Bucky!
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Planned Parenthood supports broad gun control. They are against the NRA.

It is nice to see you support gun control.
 
Bucky said:
Planned Parenthood supports broad gun control. They are against the NRA.

It is nice to see you support gun control.
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I am not a person that is rigidly limited by a label. I view each issue on it's own merits, in relation to the Constitution and my personal morality.

I'm sorry that you are unable to do so yourself. Nor are you above continuing to lie, as you certainly know my position on gun ownership.
 
Bucky said:
If you had to pick one, which one would you choose?
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I live in America, under our Constitution, I dont have to.

But anyone with even some limited intelligence can see the connection that PP has made between protecting lives in general. The lives of born women, the lives of babies (which means born) and protecting those.
 
Lursa said:
I live in America, under our Constitution, I dont have to.

But anyone with even some limited intelligence can see the connection that PP has made between protecting lives in general. The lives of born women, the lives of babies (which means born) and protecting those.
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I asked a hypothetical question and you couldn't answer the question.

Why?
 
Bucky said:
I asked a hypothetical question and you couldn't answer the question.

Why?
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I did answer it.

You dont answer most of my questions....how do you like it?
 
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