• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Legally punish women for abortion?

Lursa said:
Well then it would be illegal in the US for a Dr to perform an abortion, correct?

So then pregnant women would not go to a Dr. We dont need to to have a pregnancy confirmed anymore, the home tests are very accurate.

So if a woman decided not to remain pregnant, there would be no way to track her. And women would go to CA or Mexico or to comfy cruise ships just outside the international line (like gambling boats) and have them. Super sad that they'd be that inconvenienced however all the private $$ now donated to facilities like PP that provide abortion services would then be funneled to these women... and I bet more people would start donating...so that they could be helped.

How would they be caught and arrested then? If no one knew they were pregnant to begin with?
Click to expand...

If Roe v Wade were overturned, it would go back to the states.

I agree that many women could travel out of state and abort. The people most likely to try to self abort or obtain an illegal abortion would probably be poor, lower class, and many minorities unable to afford the cost of travel and medical cost. Also at risk would be younger girls too scared to tell their parents.

If anybody would end up in court, it would be women and girls in those groups
 
Lursa said:
The most truly fanatical probably couldnt control themselves and got booted from this sub-forum. Just a guess on my part.

But there used to be such participants.
Click to expand...

I haven't posted in this subsection in a while. I know there are some crazy lifers on this board, but I also remember some others cable of reasonable discussion. Maybe all the good poster are gone now lol
 
Jesse Booth said:
Surprisingly enough, the general consensus among Muslim scholars is that abortion is acceptable up to the four-month period. There are only 18 Muslim-majority countries where abortion is forbidden in most cases, and all of them allow the termination of pregnancies that endanger the woman.

Sharia law is some crazy stuff; abortions are fine, but getting raped is punishable as adultery. What a world we live in.
Click to expand...

Abortion is wrong in Islam and Judaism, but their attitudes and perscpitives are a lot different from the Christian right. Even European Christian rhetoric is pretty tame in comparison to America.

I used to live in Germany. At that time, if you wanted to abort you were required to get religious counseling first. I supported that.

There are differences, but the biggest difference is the rhetoric in America.
 
SheWolf said:
If Roe v Wade were overturned, it would go back to the states.

I agree that many women could travel out of state and abort. The people most likely to try to self abort or obtain an illegal abortion would probably be poor, lower class, and many minorities unable to afford the cost of travel and medical cost. Also at risk would be younger girls too scared to tell their parents.

If anybody would end up in court, it would be women and girls in those groups
Click to expand...

This is why I mentioned the donations. They are substantial now...PP alone gets tremendous private funding because they are not allowed to accept federal funds for abortions.

But I agree some women would still be at risk.

I really believe there would be a new "underground railroad" tho if elective abortion was illegal.
 
SheWolf said:
Maybe all the good poster are gone now lol
Click to expand...

That seems likely. This isn't exactly a subject open to give-and-take. As someone mentioned earlier, the difference in opinions boils down to whether or not something is literally evil (murder or not murder).
 
SheWolf said:
I haven't posted in this subsection in a while. I know there are some crazy lifers on this board, but I also remember some others cable of reasonable discussion. Maybe all the good poster are gone now lol
Click to expand...

No there are still very reasonable people on both sides here. (And some not-so-much on both sides too :neutral:)
 
SheWolf said:
Abortion is wrong in Islam and Judaism, but their attitudes and perscpitives are a lot different from the Christian right. Even European Christian rhetoric is pretty tame in comparison to America.

I used to live in Germany. At that time, if you wanted to abort you were required to get religious counseling first. I supported that.

There are differences, but the biggest difference is the rhetoric in America.
Click to expand...

What if you're not religious? Is there a state religion in Germany?
 
minnie616 said:
With the exceptions of the Catholic ruled small countries oh Ireland and Malta.
Click to expand...

Well, those weren't real countries when it came to women's rights but almost fully run by the catholic church and their stranglehold on the Irish people.
 
Reformedfindlay said:
It really is a nonsensical OP.

It boils down to "If abortion is murder and someone got an abortion would they be charged with murder?"

I don't think OP thought that one through.
Click to expand...

Its actually a very logical and spot on question.
Because while I agree with your logic of the answer the face is that of the pro-lifers that actually falsely use the term murder many of them do not want it to be a charge of murder. So a question of why is very relevant.

Now mind you if I never seen people have that stance or it was rare i would agree it seems like an odd question but based on reality its rather sound and relevant.
 
sangha said:
Many posters in this forum have called abortion murder
Click to expand...

Many posters in this forum are totally wrong or plain :cuckoo::cuckoo::screwy
 
Lursa said:
This is why I mentioned the donations. They are substantial now...PP alone gets tremendous private funding because they are not allowed to accept federal funds for abortions.

But I agree some women would still be at risk.

I really believe there would be a new "underground railroad" tho if elective abortion was illegal.
Click to expand...

That's an interesting point. I really think it's reasonable to expect pro life states to try to crack down on any type of underground railroad, and charge people.

Overturning Roe v Wade would just cause the political debate to change and evolve.
 
Lursa said:
What if you're not religious? Is there a state religion in Germany?
Click to expand...

The biggest party is the Christian Democratic Party. I am not sure how the laws worked, but I think you could pick your own couseling if it was offered. I haven't studied the German government in a long time. Freedom of speech and religion is more restricted there than United States, but the rights are still recognized. I don't remember a declared state religion or the concept of division of church and state. It's different from America. Also the Protestant Reformation happened there, so the north is Luthern and south Catholic. Islam is second to Christanity. There is a large Turkish population.
 
HowardBThiname said:
That's what I thought until I did a little research.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges

https://www.washingtonpost.com/?utm_term=.23f9facadab8

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/arti...rged-for-murder-after-self-inducing-abortions
Click to expand...

two were not charged for abortion crimes but other crimes to their fetuses and the Purvi Patel case was thrown out on appeal because of the illegal use of the feticide laws, because that was clearly not the intended use of the law they tried to convict her under.
 
Lursa said:
What if you're not religious? Is there a state religion in Germany?
Click to expand...

If you were not religious, you would still get the couseling, but you could choose the type of religion or domination. I don't think non religious couseling was an option.
 
SheWolf said:
If Roe v Wade were overturned, it would go back to the states, which could happen someday.

In all honesty, I don't think the debate will never end. If it were overturned, we would just start debating different aspects of the issue, and we would be facing a whole new set of problems.

I am asking this question more or less to know what pro lifers want in terms of justice and morality.

I am also interested in hearing people discuss and break down pro life rhetoric in a way I understand. I dont like abortion. It ends a human life. I think its morally wrong. But I don't relate much to this rhetoric of baby killing, it's murder, etc.

I want to know what lifers really think.
Click to expand...

Theres no sound logic to make it "murder" since murder is mostly a legal construct, done to a person and is void of self defense.
Ill never understand the claim either and ive tried. And what makes it harder is the claim its murder and immoral in one direction but totally fine to force a woman to risk her life/health against her will. :shrug:
(FYI not ALL pro-life people see it the way and im not implying that)

Since I come from a place of pro-rights, pro-human rights, rights equality (even-though equal rights are impossible on this issue) I can never be a typical prolife stance. Best I can be is prochoice with limits
 
SheWolf said:
That's an interesting point. I really think it's reasonable to expect pro life states to try to crack down on any type of underground railroad, and charge people.
Click to expand...

Well of course...they didnt just accept the original Underground Railroad without a fight.

However for any women involved in one for abortion...how would they know why she's there? Or verify it? Would they take women into custody and force them to take pregnancy tests? Stop them at the borders and force them? Could women no longer travel abroad without pregnancy tests? Would any pregnant woman who left the country and came back without a kid & not pregnant...be charged with murder?

The thing about truly outlawing abortion is that to actually try and stop it...pretty much all a woman's rights would be violated...up to and including liberty and life.
 
Last edited:
Lursa said:
Well of course...they didnt just accept the original Underground Railroad without a fight.

However ffor any women involved in one for abortion...how would they know why she's there? Or verify it? Would they take women into custody and force them to take pregnancy tests? Stop them at the borders and force them? Could women no longer travel abroad without pregnancy tests? Would any pregnant woman who left the country and came back without a kid & not pregnant...be charged with murder?

The thing about truly outlawing abortion is that to actually try and stop it...the violations of pretty much all a woman's rights would be violated...up to and including liberty and life.
Click to expand...

Good points, which is fair to want to see pro lifers address

Different countries handle this all differently. I am not sure how Ireland handles these matters, but we are unique from Ireland because of our states rights
 
SheWolf said:
If you were not religious, you would still get the couseling, but you could choose the type of religion or domination. I don't think non religious couseling was an option.
Click to expand...

Well that one cant happen here...unless we went as far as completely violating women's 1A rights as well!

Thanks, that was interesting.
 
SheWolf said:
I don't remember a declared state religion or the concept of division of church and state.
Click to expand...

Dear heavens, how uncivilized. I'm sure glad the founders set up a restrictive enough constitution that we don't have to worry about government-mandated guilt trips for a medical procedure.
 
SheWolf said:
Good points, which is fair to want to see pro lifers address
Click to expand...

Good luck with this!

I think yours is a good OP...because it does ask for some concrete answers (not that you will get them).

The primary thing that I post in this sub-forum is that the born and unborn cannot be treated equally under the law. (Nor ethically either IMO). One of their rights would supersede the others...from the initiation of an pregnancy all the way through investigation, discovery, and legal consequences.

Our society has chosen to value the rights of women above the unborn. SCOTUS deliberated in the 20s and recognized equal rights for women. They did the same for the unborn in the 70s and determined that the unborn have no rights. To change that now would require relegating women back to 2nd class citizen status.

"Value" is subjective. Since we cannot treat both equally, we must value one over the other.

While I value the unborn, I value women more. Hence I am pro-choice.

Pro-life supporters, almost 100%, will not admit to valuing the unborn over women. Over and over they ignore the facts and write that they value both equally. And when pressed on the issue, they will just leave. You dont get an honest answer...ever.

But this makes it pretty clear: If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women.
 
Last edited:
Jesse Booth said:
Of course a society where killing fellow adults is allowed would be incapable of functioning; only a madman would suggest that such a system could function for long at all. That's why still-developing fetuses should be available to use as stress-releasing dummies for those with anger issues. It's only logical, after all. Who knows, perhaps if we allowed troubled teens to torture the unborn, it might release enough pent-up frustration to prevent a school shooting! Alternatively, a post-natal abortion performed on said troubled teens could nip such problems in the bud before they were even problems. A single glance at nations such as Finland reveal the numerous advantages of a society where all the sad people die off; depressed Americans just need a little encouragement, or perhaps mandated euthanasia. I'm open to a variety of options.

Of course, under the legal codes of a pro-abortion society, the females carrying such fragile stress balls would be compensated for the utilization of their property, much in the way the government already pays for the land they confiscate through eminent domain laws. Anything less than that would be politically unpopular, after all, and difficult to sell the public on.
Click to expand...
You are so bad.[emoji1]

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 
SheWolf said:
I am not sure if this thread as been started before, I am very curious to know what pro-lifers think about this. If you think abortion is murder and want it outlawed, then shouldn't somebody be legally charged with murder?

And if you say no to legally prosecuting women for murder for an illegal abortion, why?
Click to expand...



Wow.

I can't think of a more sick and twisted idea.

A woman who has been impregnated by a man, goes through emotional turmoil, sometimes debilitating, faces the actual procedure and and you want to further punish her for something that is none of your business.

I bet you'd howl like a ****ing banshee if the government told you, you had to get sterilized.

It's the same principle. and I repeat, what a woman does with her body is none of your business. If you want to attack the practice of abortion, attack the system, and leave the individual alone.

Besides you're already the nation with the largest percentage of the population behind bars. You might want to ease up a tad and let people live in freedom instead of that "lock her up" mentality.

For a nation that uses the excuse of "freedom" to start very profitable wars you sure are ignorant of what freedom actually is.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Wow.

I can't think of a more sick and twisted idea.

A woman who has been impregnated by a man, goes through emotional turmoil, sometimes debilitating, faces the actual procedure and and you want to further punish her for something that is none of your business.

I bet you'd howl like a ****ing banshee if the government told you, you had to get sterilized.

It's the same principle. and I repeat, what a woman does with her body is none of your business. If you want to attack the practice of abortion, attack the system, and leave the individual alone.

Besides you're already the nation with the largest percentage of the population behind bars. You might want to ease up a tad and let people live in freedom instead of that "lock her up" mentality.

For a nation that uses the excuse of "freedom" to start very profitable wars you sure are ignorant of what freedom actually is.
Click to expand...

She's asking, not advocating. SheWolf is a dirty liberal on this issue, not a darn conservative.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Wow.

I can't think of a more sick and twisted idea.

A woman who has been impregnated by a man, goes through emotional turmoil, sometimes debilitating, faces the actual procedure and and you want to further punish her for something that is none of your business.

I bet you'd howl like a ****ing banshee if the government told you, you had to get sterilized.

It's the same principle. and I repeat, what a woman does with her body is none of your business. If you want to attack the practice of abortion, attack the system, and leave the individual alone.

Besides you're already the nation with the largest percentage of the population behind bars. You might want to ease up a tad and let people live in freedom instead of that "lock her up" mentality.

For a nation that uses the excuse of "freedom" to start very profitable wars you sure are ignorant of what freedom actually is.
Click to expand...

But the bold is the real bone of contention here. The unborn is a separate entity and pro-life supporters dont feel that a woman has a right to her own bodily sovereignty, they prioritize the unborn over her.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom