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Legally punish women for abortion?

SheWolf said:
So you're pro life?

I know women were charged with crimes before Roe v Wade. Do you think there should be some sort of charge?

I tend to think the whole abortion is murder meme is central to the pro life movement, because of the personhood debate.
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I'm prochoice until the fetus is viable, and then, I'm still prochoice, with certain exceptions, in later pregnancy.

I just posted some articles that show women have actually been charged with murder -- and recently. I think that's a dangerous trend.
 
Peter King said:
Was it ever called murder? The act of abortion was illegal, but I doubt it was ever prosecuted as murder in most civilized countries in the past century.
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A lot of countries actually charge the women. It's usually not for murder. America charged women before Roe v Wade.
 
So far, no pro lifer has said yes.

I don't think any pro lifer has said no, offering a reason why.
 
sangha said:
I prdict that the posters who argue that abortion is murder will studiously avoid this thread
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Even if they say no, I would like to hear their reasoning.

As I said earlier, i really don't relate to pro life rhetoric. I may be pro life on a personal level, but I have never related to pro life political rhetoric. I thought asking this question may help bridge my understanding. Or maybe not.
 
SheWolf said:
I am also interested in hearing people discuss and break down pro life rhetoric in a way I understand. I dont like abortion. It ends a human life. I think its morally wrong. But I don't relate much to this rhetoric of baby killing, it's murder, etc.
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And I will never understand what you just said. You KNOW abortion ends a human life -- a young developing human. You KNOW it's morally wrong to stop a young human's life from continuing. How are you perplexed by people calling that murder? Is murder only OLDER human lives being stopped short?
 
SheWolf said:
So far, no pro lifer has said yes.

I don't think any pro lifer has said no, offering a reason why.
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A couple of us already said yes. If abortion ever legally = murder, why wouldn't all people involved be charged with murder?
 
Josie said:
A couple of us already said yes. If abortion ever legally = murder, why wouldn't all people involved be charged with murder?
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I think only you said yes, but that your post was in humor.

I am confused by your response. I am not looking to pigeon hole you.

Do you want abortion to be illegal?
Do you think abortion is murder?
Do you think women should be charged for illegally aborting?

I am curious to hear some thoughts on this.

Thanks.
 
SheWolf said:
I think only you said yes, but that your post was in humor.

I am confused by your response. I am not looking to pigeon hole you.

Do you want abortion to be illegal?
Do you think abortion is murder?
Do you think women should be charged for illegally aborting?

I am curious to hear some thoughts on this.

Thanks.
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I think you're getting confusing answers because you didn't ask what people wanted -- you just said "If abortion is murder, should the mother be prosecuted too?" Obviously the answer to that is yes. Legally, everyone involved would be charged no matter your opinion on if it's murder or not.

Do you want abortion to be illegal?
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In most instances, yes.

Do you think abortion is murder?
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In most instances, yes.

Do you think women should be charged for illegally aborting?
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They should be charged as the law demands. If the law says it's murder, all involved should be charged. Why wouldn't they be?
 
Josie said:
And I will never understand what you just said. You KNOW abortion ends a human life -- a young developing human. You KNOW it's morally wrong to stop a young human's life from continuing. How are you perplexed by people calling that murder? Is murder only OLDER human lives being stopped short?
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I am too pragmatic too make such a complex issue so cut and dry. If i believed it was murder, I would be fully against it in the case of rape and child rape. I have worked with survivors of rape. I have seen people decide to carry to term and abort.

I don't see it as so black and white as you lay it out.

And if I thought it was murder, I would want people charged with murder.
 
Josie said:
I think you're getting confusing answers because you didn't ask what people wanted -- you just said "If abortion is murder, should the mother be prosecuted too?" Obviously the answer to that is yes. Legally, everyone involved would be charged no matter your opinion on if it's murder or not.



In most instances, yes.



In most instances, yes.



They should be charged as the law demands. If the law says it's murder, all involved should be charged. Why wouldn't they be?
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You're not answering the question honestly.

If the instances you think it's murder, do you want them charged with murder?

I am not asking if the law demands it. I am asking what you want the law to demand. Do you want the law to demand they be charged with murder?
 
Jesse Booth said:
Of course a society where killing fellow adults is allowed would be incapable of functioning; only a madman would suggest that such a system could function for long at all. That's why still-developing fetuses should be available to use as stress-releasing dummies for those with anger issues. It's only logical, after all.
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ONLY TO A POINT. There's enough anger in the world that under your plan, all fetuses would be killed, and thus the human species would become extinct.

Jesse Booth said:
Who knows, perhaps if we allowed troubled teens to torture the unborn, it might release enough pent-up frustration to prevent a school shooting! Alternatively, a post-natal abortion performed on said troubled teens could nip such problems in the bud before they were even problems.
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THAT'S MOSTLY A CONSEQUENCE OF INADEQUATE EDUCATION. For example, if everyone was educated about guns (remember a Disney song about Davy Crockett killing a bear when he was only three?), then that means everyone could safely carry one, and any idiot who tries to do a school shooting would not be able to claim many victims before getting eliminated. The bad guys are always outnumbered. Also, additional education could prove helpful; while I explained the reason for the "right-to-life" thing in that other message, it doesn't seem to be something that gets formally taught. Kids are only taught to follow the rule mindlessly. One of the simplest definitions of "a person" goes something like this: "A person is any entity that can understand the concept of rights, and is able to claim rights for self, and is willing to accept the claims of others for those same rights." How many kids who thoroughly understand that not accepting rights of others automatically means no one need accept their own claims of rights --how many of those kids are going to cause school-shooting incidents, eh?

Jesse Booth said:
A single glance at nations such as Finland reveal the numerous advantages of a society where all the sad people die off; depressed Americans just need a little encouragement, or perhaps mandated euthanasia. I'm open to a variety of options.
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THE WORLD IS CERTAINLY OVERPOPULATED. Sometimes I think the control-freaks who try to force others to stay alive against their wills --the control freaks might deserve euthanasia, also. (However, having read that roughly 2% of the population counts as "bad guys", it logically follows that killing them all would amount to only a 2% drop in the total population, hardly enough to solve the overpopulation problem.) By the way, here is a relevant Heinlein quote, confirming that most of humanity's problems are caused by overpopulation.
 
SheWolf said:
You're not answering the question honestly.

If the instances you think it's murder, do you want them charged with murder?

I am not asking if the law demands it. I am asking what you want the law to demand. Do you want the law to demand they be charged with murder?
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I already answered that. I'm not answering "honestly"? :roll:

Do you want abortion to be illegal?
In most instances, yes.

Do you think abortion is murder?
In most instances, yes.
 
Grand Mal said:
And what if she dies in some foul, back-alley procedure? Is that like God's judgement?
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Many pro-life people have said & written exactly that. Death or the pain or permanent sterilization of a botched illegal abortion is their just desserts as murderers.

You know..."good Christians." :roll:

But not all pro-life people think that. (But plenty do)
 
Josie said:
I already answered that. I'm not answering "honestly"? :roll:

Do you want abortion to be illegal?
In most instances, yes.

Do you think abortion is murder?
In most instances, yes.
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Just say that you want the law to demand that the women be charged with murder.

Because it sounds like that's what you're saying.
 
Rosie1 said:
If guys taking part in causing pregnancies are held responsible, with more consequences, there would be better both sex birth control practiced;.
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Held responsible how? Men...or women if they are the non-custodial parent...are held responsible for child support now.

What did you have in mind?
 
SheWolf said:
Just say that you want the law to demand that the women be charged with murder.

Because it sounds like that's what you're saying.
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In most cases, abortion should be illegal. In most cases, the law should call abortion murder. Therefore, in most cases abortion should be illegal and called murder. And if the law says it's murder, all participants should be charged. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.
 
SheWolf said:
I am not sure if this thread as been started before, I am very curious to know what pro-lifers think about this. If you think abortion is murder and want it outlawed, then shouldn't somebody be legally charged with murder?

And if you say no to legally prosecuting women for murder for an illegal abortion, why?
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Well then it would be illegal in the US for a Dr to perform an abortion, correct?

So then pregnant women would not go to a Dr. We dont need to to have a pregnancy confirmed anymore, the home tests are very accurate.

So if a woman decided not to remain pregnant, there would be no way to track her. And women would go to CA or Mexico or to comfy cruise ships just outside the international line (like gambling boats) and have them. Super sad that they'd be that inconvenienced however all the private $$ now donated to facilities like PP that provide abortion services would then be funneled to these women... and I bet more people would start donating...so that they could be helped.

How would they be caught and arrested then? If no one knew they were pregnant to begin with?
 
SheWolf said:
I am trying to understand if pro lifers really want somebody charged and punished for murder. I am not implying they are insane or anything. I am really trying to understand, which is why I also asked if they don't want a murder charge, then why. I am curious to know. I am hoping for a good discussion.
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The most truly fanatical probably couldnt control themselves and got booted from this sub-forum. Just a guess on my part.

But there used to be such participants.
 
FutureIncoming said:
ONLY TO A POINT. There's enough anger in the world that under your plan, all fetuses would be killed, and thus the human species would become extinct.
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You're thinking too small, friendo. We'll just reinseminate the women whose fetuses we terminated with extreme prejudice! Worst case scenario, we just have to set aside a few low-value people (read low-value as female) to keep barefoot & pregnant so that demand can be met.

THAT'S MOSTLY A CONSEQUENCE OF INADEQUATE EDUCATION. For example, if everyone was educated about guns (remember a Disney song about Davy Crockett killing a bear when he was only three?), then that means everyone could safely carry one, and any idiot who tries to do a school shooting would not be able to claim many victims before getting eliminated. The bad guys are always outnumbered. Also, additional education could prove helpful; while I explained the reason for the "right-to-life" thing in that other message, it doesn't seem to be something that gets formally taught. Kids are only taught to follow the rule mindlessly. One of the simplest definitions of "a person" goes something like this: "A person is any entity that can understand the concept of rights, and is able to claim rights for self, and is willing to accept the claims of others for those same rights." How many kids who thoroughly understand that not accepting rights of others automatically means no one need accept their own claims of rights --how many of those kids are going to cause school-shooting incidents, eh?
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Yes, but it would be quite expensive to train & pay all of those civics teachers. Fetus torture is simply the most pragmatic solution to our mass shooting problem.

THE WORLD IS CERTAINLY OVERPOPULATED. Sometimes I think the control-freaks who try to force others to stay alive against their wills --the control freaks might deserve euthanasia, also. (However, having read that roughly 2% of the population counts as "bad guys", it logically follows that killing them all would amount to only a 2% drop in the total population, hardly enough to solve the overpopulation problem.) By the way, here is a relevant Heinlein quote, confirming that most of humanity's problems are caused by overpopulation.
Click to expand...

Make up your mind! First, crippling the capacity for humans to breed is a bad thing, and now the overabundance of people is a problem?

Actually, wait - I have a solution to this problem that addresses both of your contradictory arguments! We'll abduct women from overpopulated regions, like Africa, India, and southern California, and lock them all in industrial fetus facilities, like a twisted parody of chicken farms! This is great stuff; there'll be fewer poor people reproducing, more stress relief outlets for more people, and we can even make a tidy little profit off of mechanized human misery. I should write my congressman and senators about this.
 
Lursa said:
Probably in some Muslim countries as well.
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Surprisingly enough, the general consensus among Muslim scholars is that abortion is acceptable up to the four-month period. There are only 18 Muslim-majority countries where abortion is forbidden in most cases, and all of them allow the termination of pregnancies that endanger the woman.

Sharia law is some crazy stuff; abortions are fine, but getting raped is punishable as adultery. What a world we live in.
 
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