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Pence: Abortion will end in U.S. 'in our time'

Yes but that is determined by biology, not law, and it cant be equal.

But it's not remotely 'sexist' because IF men were able to get pregnant (and there's a gray area now where they do), then men would have the exact same choices as women.

And our point of contention is that without some other solution, you find it acceptable to dump the non-custodial parent's obligations on the taxpayers, which I do not.

Biology continues to be a weak argument. Child support, adoption, abortion, birth control -- none of these are biological functions but human-created alternatives to biological processes. Biology doesn't force men into servitude; society does.
 
Biology continues to be a weak argument. Child support, adoption, abortion, birth control -- none of these are biological functions but human-created alternatives to biological processes. Biology doesn't force men into servitude; society does.

Well if you can change the biology, I'm all for it.

And yes laws coerce certain actions..based on biology. Again there is no sexism as has been claimed because I would totally support the exact same treatment for pregnant men and I guess that is now sort of a reality anyway.

So it IS about biology and the law cannot make that equal.

It's certainly not fair to push 'additional servititude' on taxpayers for a risk that 2 adults knowingly took.
 
This post betrays a ridiculous double-standard: You and others view men as little more than walking penises. Basically, your view is that women are worthy of having a choice and men are not. Absurd. I also love the idea that men should abstain so women don't have to. WTF? Shameful sexism on display here.

In reality, people already have sex despite the risks and potential consequences, and giving men a legal option to avoid indentured servitude would do little to change human nature and would neither curb nor encourage sexual activity.

Once again, Joe...

Do you know the difference between legal options vs moral choices? Just because a “legal option” exists - doesn’t mean that woman has to abandon her moral beliefs simply because she legally can.

There’s nothing difficult about this fundamental reality.

What you’re actually demanding is that men are 100% absolved from any sexual consequences if a sexual event goes south.

If a man has sex with a woman - and he pretends not to know, or he irresponsibly ignores finding out how the woman will respond to an unexpected and/or unwanted pregnancy, then what the hell is he doing to prevent such an event from occurring?

This is where choices “begin” for men. And that isn’t end of the choice making process.

It’s no social secret that a sizable population of pro-choice women who won’t have an abortion - yet you still insist on men being the victim of a women - who won’t violate their moral beliefs in order to placate to men who fall prey to ignoring reality...or even cares about what the realities are from both a legal and moral perspective.

How is it possible for men to not know that “moral choices can hold precedence over legal options”?

The legal reality is....

The State can’t control sexual behaviors. But the State has a Constitutional obligation to intervene when the welfare and wellbeing of a child is known to be in jeopardy. The State could give 2 ****s less about the circumstances that lead to the child being born.

The State doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the ignorance of one or both parties - or irresponsible behaviors, or the lack of knowledge one has about the consequences of having sex. The State doesn’t care because it can’t control consequences that are self-concocted by Individuals.

Most importantly, the State isn’t going to waste resources to find out which party was ignorant, irresponsible, or just failed to give a damn about the consequences of a sexual experience that resulted in a birth. But the State is required by law to ensure that the parties who created an unexpected or unwanted outcome will be responsible for those consequences of their own making.
 
How is it possible for men to not know that “moral choices can hold precedence over legal options”?

That "all important" *choice* is there...what has been expressed, right here and from others, is that they dont like that choice. :doh As if women as so thrilled with the fact that ALL consequences of pregnancy carry a risk of death?

Men have a choice...but you have personally written that it's not a reasonable expectation for them to make it when they are perfectly capable of doing so to protect themselves.

So...they factually DO have a choice.

Some men still feel *entitled* to sex without consequences...and that's not equal. It's completely sexist, as women have NEVER had that entitlement and never will.
 
The only other convincing argument I've seen relies on regarding the fetus as a person, in which a legal catch 22 ensues as I've said earlier.

Also, if you do that stupid capitalize **** one more time I'm just going to ignore you, it's obnoxious.

Men's choices: Abstinence, condom (not 100% effective), sterilization
Women's choices: Abstinence, birth control (not 100% effective), sterilization, abortion, adoption

The key difference here is that all of men's choices come pre-conception. It is not equal.

But the real problem to me lies with the punitive child support laws, which I think is an area where you and I can find some common ground.

That's right. Men must choose NOT to conceive. They have control of their own penises. I got a vasectomy so there wouldn't be a problem. Too many men are satisfied to gamble and then bitch when they lose.

By the time child support laws apply, a man has already made a bad choice. Your protests are akin to someone who gets drunk, crashes their car and complains the DUI laws ruined their lives.
 
Once again, Joe...

Do you know the difference between legal options vs moral choices? Just because a “legal option” exists - doesn’t mean that woman has to abandon her moral beliefs simply because she legally can.

Do you? Just because you give men a legal option, doesn't mean they are going to start inseminating everyone in sight. You act as though the only thing restraining men is legal risk. I'm not arguing these issues should be taken lightly, but the status quo is woefully flawed.

There’s nothing difficult about this fundamental reality.

What you’re actually demanding is that men are 100% absolved from any sexual consequences if a sexual event goes south.

If a man has sex with a woman - and he pretends not to know, or he irresponsibly ignores finding out how the woman will respond to an unexpected and/or unwanted pregnancy, then what the hell is he doing to prevent such an event from occurring?

This is where choices “begin” for men. And that isn’t end of the choice making process.

I'm demanding no such thing. Have you even read the thread? Besides, legal consequences are not the only consequences. I'm arguing for revision of the child support system and pointing out the fundamental hypocrisy of being pro-choice for one sex only. Above you put the responsibility for conception men, as if women aren't willing and able actors in this process. Consensual is not something that men do to women. It's something that two partners engage in.

It’s no social secret that a sizable population of pro-choice women who won’t have an abortion - yet you still insist on men being the victim of a women - who won’t violate their moral beliefs in order to placate to men who fall prey to ignoring reality...or even cares about what the realities are from both a legal and moral perspective.

How is it possible for men to not know that “moral choices can hold precedence over legal options”?

Men are victims if they are forced into 18 years of labor against their will for engaging in consensual, legal acts. The fact is, if you give men a pre-birth opt-out, you arm women with more knowledge to make a decision. It allows unmarried couples to commit or not commit to parenthood together, not make one party subject to the other. Nowhere did I argue for men to be able to force women to have an abortion, although I have pointed out how the very arguments used in this thread could also be used to undermine a woman's body autonomy.

The legal reality is....

The State can’t control sexual behaviors. But the State has a Constitutional obligation to intervene when the welfare and wellbeing of a child is known to be in jeopardy. The State could give 2 ****s less about the circumstances that lead to the child being born.

Your ignorance of child support laws are noted. The standards are based on maintaining a standard of living, not welfare or well-being of the child. If you believe what you've written here, you should be on my side arguing for reform: Base child support on demonstrated need and not just about extraction of income. And give non-custodial parents a voice in how their contributions are used by custodial parents.

The State doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the ignorance of one or both parties - or irresponsible behaviors, or the lack of knowledge one has about the consequences of having sex. The State doesn’t care because it can’t control consequences that are self-concocted by Individuals.

WTF are you talking about? The state imposes those consequences. Are you advocating for abstinence, because no unmarried couple should ever have sex in your world.

Most importantly, the State isn’t going to waste resources to find out which party was ignorant, irresponsible, or just failed to give a damn about the consequences of a sexual experience that resulted in a birth. But the State is required by law to ensure that the parties who created an unexpected or unwanted outcome will be responsible for those consequences of their own making.

By making the law unequal, the state is doing just that.
 
That "all important" *choice* is there...what has been expressed, right here and from others, is that they dont like that choice. :doh As if women as so thrilled with the fact that ALL consequences of pregnancy carry a risk of death?



Some men still feel *entitled* to sex without consequences...and that's not equal. It's completely sexist, as women have NEVER had that entitlement and never will.

Apparently, it is women who feel entitled to sex without consequences, since so many seem to want to have complete control over reproduction regardless of the wishes of their partner. They want to be able to choose, and they want that choice to come with the guarantee of 18 years of labor from the "sperm donor."

Maybe this issue shouldn't be about sexual shaming?
 
That's right. Men must choose NOT to conceive. They have control of their own penises. I got a vasectomy so there wouldn't be a problem. Too many men are satisfied to gamble and then bitch when they lose.

By the time child support laws apply, a man has already made a bad choice. Your protests are akin to someone who gets drunk, crashes their car and complains the DUI laws ruined their lives.

By that standard, there is no reason a woman can't be forced to conceive and/or abort, based on the wishes of the state. After all, they were "driving drunk," right? Therefore, they deserve the consequences.

It's interesting that you see sex as a bad choice. A new Puritanism, indeed. Under the law you're arguing for, no man should ever have sex outside of legal marriage. Yet you refuse to hold women to that same level of accountability.
 
Apparently, it is women who feel entitled to sex without consequences, since so many seem to want to have complete control over reproduction regardless of the wishes of their partner. They want to be able to choose, and they want that choice to come with the guarantee of 18 years of labor from the "sperm donor."

Maybe this issue shouldn't be about sexual shaming?

Yeah...it's our bodies and our health. Sorry, that comes before a man's wallet. If a man wants to protect his wallet...he can.

Women have consequences that dont affect men at all. As a matter of fact, 3 out of the 4 consequences women face lead to ZERO consequences for men (And STILL you claim it's not equal, it's not fair! :doh )

reminder:
--have a kid
--miscarry
--abortion
--death during pregnancy/childbirth

If a man wants to control his reproduction...can he? Yes or no? The answer is yes.

Men want to choose. And men can choose. Again, you just dont like 'when' they have to choose. Because you feel men are entitled to sex without consequences (and again...women never are and never have been)

Here's another truth: men would walk away without paying child support regardless of their partner's wishes.

Again...men are NOT victims here. It has now *become* equal in that men are not entitled to sex without consequences...just like it's been for women for...ever. Apparently, that's just not what some men want to accept. But they ignore the realities at the risk of their wallets. (but the blame is entirely theirs because they still made the decision)
 
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Yeah...it's our bodies and our health. Sorry, that comes before a man's wallet. If a man wants to protect his wallet...he can.

Women have consequences that dont affect men at all. As a matter of fact, 3 out of the 4 consequences women face lead to ZERO consequences for men (And STILL you claim it's not equal, it's not fair! :doh )



If a man wants to control his reproduction...can he? Yes or no? The answer is yes.

Men want to choose. And men can choose. Again, you just dont like 'when' they have to choose. Because you feel men are entitled to sex without consequences (and again...women never are and never have been)

Here's another truth: men would walk away without paying child support regardless of their partner's wishes.

Again...men are NOT victims here. It has now *become* equal in that men are not entitled to sex without consequences...just like it's been for women for...ever. Apparently, that's just not what some men want to accept. But they ignore the realities at the risk of their wallets. (but the blame is entirely theirs because they still made the decision)

Most men do not walk away. And the idea that forced labor is just a "man's wallet" is completely amoral. To be clear, though, if we can morally force a man into 18 years of labor, we can morally force a woman into an abortion clinic or a maternity ward. The principles are the same: body autonomy, freedom of choice. Either you respect them and apply them consistently, or you undermine the moral imperative.

For example, I know you're concerned about the taxpayers, but as you've noted, it's the woman's choice to have a child. Why she should be able to impose the costs of having a child on the state? If she can't raise a child, and she willingly conceived with a deadbeat, then why should taxpayers bear the cost? The state has a vested interest in encouraging poor women who make poor choices to abort their fetuses. Right? After all, we've already established the state's financial interests should take precedence over the body autonomy of its citizens.

I want to be clear that I find that to be an abomination. I believe in body autonomy for women. I support a woman's right to choose. But I stop short of guaranteeing 18 years of someone else's labor in service to that choice.
 
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Most men do not walk away. And the idea that forced labor is just a "man's wallet" is completely amoral. To be clear, though, if we can morally force a man into 18 years of labor, we can morally force a woman into an abortion clinic or a maternity ward. The principles are the same: body autonomy, freedom of choice. Either you respect them and apply them consistently, or you undermine the moral imperative.

For example, I know you're concerned about the taxpayers, but as you've noted, it's the woman's choice to have a child. Why she should be able to impose the costs of having a child on the state? If she can't raise a child, and she willingly conceived with a deadbeat, then why should taxpayers bear the cost? The state has a vested interest in encouraging poor women who make poor choices to abort their fetuses. Right? After all, we've already established the state's financial interests should take precedence over the body autonomy of its citizens.

I want to be clear that I find that to be an abomination. I believe in body autonomy for women. I support a woman's right to choose. But I stop short of guaranteeing 18 years of someone else's labor in service to that choice.

"Men walk away." Sure they do, regardless of their partner's wishes.

"The state" may force them to return.

And it's not amoral to expect men to pay for something they knowingly accepted a risk of producing. That's ridiculous. You make men sound stupid and weak, like they are incapable of making decisions reqarding their lives and futures.

Men have a choice. There is nothing amoral about the law making them be responsible for the consequences of that choice.

Your question about women and public assistance goes beyond child support....it is involved in any welfare, food stamps, etc. And these things are available to single male parents, single women parents, and couples with kids. WHat entitles ANY of them to my hard-earned tax dollars?

This is the same question they tr to deal with re: welfare programs: No one will ever cut parents with kids off completely because we, as a society, will not allow the child to suffer. If a single mother applies for it, she'll get it. If a single father applies for it, he'll get it (if both meet the financial criteria)

If you can offer a COnstitutionally legal way to prevent women from getting pregnant, I'm all ears. Believe me, if it wasnt the most solid of personal liberty pillars that our country is founded on (and also the 14th Amendment)...I would be more than happy to create a licensing program for prospective parents before allowing them to reproduce.

So please...keep the discussion within the realm of reality and the Constitution.
 
"Men walk away." Sure they do, regardless of their partner's wishes.

"The state" may force them to return.

And it's not amoral to expect men to pay for something they knowingly accepted a risk of producing. That's ridiculous. You make men sound stupid and weak, like they are incapable of making decisions reqarding their lives and futures.

Men have a choice. There is nothing amoral about the law making them be responsible for the consequences of that choice.

Your question about women and public assistance goes beyond child support....it is involved in any welfare, food stamps, etc. And these things are available to single male parents, single women parents, and couples with kids. WHat entitles ANY of them to my hard-earned tax dollars?

This is the same question they tr to deal with re: welfare programs: No one will ever cut parents with kids off completely because we, as a society, will not allow the child to suffer. If a single mother applies for it, she'll get it. If a single father applies for it, he'll get it (if both meet the financial criteria)

If you can offer a COnstitutionally legal way to prevent women from getting pregnant, I'm all ears. Believe me, if it wasnt the most solid of personal liberty pillars that our country is founded on (and also the 14th Amendment)...I would be more than happy to create a licensing program for prospective parents before allowing them to reproduce.

So please...keep the discussion within the realm of reality and the Constitution.

OK. State-compelled child support is a direct violation of the 13th Amendment. It is clearly unconstitutional. It's arguably also a violation of the 4th Amendment.

I'm not for forcing anyone to conceive, sterilize, abort, give birth, or be forced into servitude. I'm also for universal health care, and that means treating those vile smokers, too. I hold individual rights higher than the interests of the state, which is why I can never be a far-left liberal, despite my clear liberal leanings.
 
OK. State-compelled child support is a direct violation of the 13th Amendment. It is clearly unconstitutional. It's arguably also a violation of the 4th Amendment.

I'm not for forcing anyone to conceive, sterilize, abort, give birth, or be forced into servitude. I'm also for universal health care, and that means treating those vile smokers, too. I hold individual rights higher than the interests of the state, which is why I can never be a far-left liberal, despite my clear liberal leanings.

Well, if you can get those laws overturned, good luck. It's odd they havent been yet.

But men and women are held equally responsible for children as custodial, non-custodial, or in joint custodial parents by the state.
 
Women of the USA: why do you insist on entertaining the fantasy that forced motherhood is bad but forced fatherhood is good?

The Vice President of the United States is calling to take away rights which allow you to choose what to do with your body. This autonomy on a physical level is part of what makes us human. But it is also a choice of how to behave in society, and whether or not we should be parents.

It seems quite clear to me that men and women should both be allowed to have sex with one another without risking a prison sentence, if the other chooses to enforce non-custodial support.

Why do you suppose that women still want to financially abuse men in this way? Are women really so vindictive that they are willing to risk it all just to snub men? Or are they too meek and mild mannered to stand up for themselves?

I know how that feels. I once tried to present evidence in court of the unconstitutionality of forced fatherhood. The judge refused to admit it. It really hurts to go to a place where one expects to find honor, civility, respect, wisdom and justice, and find ignorance and obstinate discrimination in its place. But I feel my situation is slightly different. Whereas I presently am incapable of rightly exercising autonomy, woman can and do disavow motherhood. Therefore, advocacy I do is not in defense of an existing legal protection of men. Unfortunately, I believe women have grown smug and self righteous. They do not understand that their rights are at risk because of their egotistical complacency. If women stood up for what was right for all people, and not just all women, they could speak to a much wider audience.

Pence: Abortion will end in U.S. 'in our time' | TheHill



Really?

There aren't other, more important issues facing Americans than going back 3 generations for ideology?

By then the life expectancy of a child will be halved if you don't do something about mass killings, the limitless proliferation of drugs and crime. Yeah, that would be Republican America....Nixon would weep in joy
 
Apparently, it is women who feel entitled to sex without consequences, since so many seem to want to have complete control over reproduction regardless of the wishes of their partner. They want to be able to choose, and they want that choice to come with the guarantee of 18 years of labor from the "sperm donor."

Maybe this issue shouldn't be about sexual shaming?


Wow, not too Misogynist.

You aren't making a case for anything but bashing women who want the same standard men have had for 50,000 years.

Please don't reply to this, I find your arguments to be degrading
 
Most men do not walk away. And the idea that forced labor is just a "man's wallet" is completely amoral. To be clear, though, if we can morally force a man into 18 years of labor, we can morally force a woman into an abortion clinic or a maternity ward. The principles are the same: body autonomy, freedom of choice. Either you respect them and apply them consistently, or you undermine the moral imperative.

For example, I know you're concerned about the taxpayers, but as you've noted, it's the woman's choice to have a child. Why she should be able to impose the costs of having a child on the state? If she can't raise a child, and she willingly conceived with a deadbeat, then why should taxpayers bear the cost? The state has a vested interest in encouraging poor women who make poor choices to abort their fetuses. Right? After all, we've already established the state's financial interests should take precedence over the body autonomy of its citizens.

I want to be clear that I find that to be an abomination. I believe in body autonomy for women. I support a woman's right to choose. But I stop short of guaranteeing 18 years of someone else's labor in service to that choice.



Show the stats.

The US has the highest rate of single motherhood in its ghettos alone.

YOu won't post your stats because there aren't any./
 
Wow, not too Misogynist.

You aren't making a case for anything but bashing women who want the same standard men have had for 50,000 years.

Please don't reply to this, I find your arguments to be degrading

Then you don't understand my arguments. Maybe you should reason your way through the discussion instead of feeling your way through it. Also, you're quoting out of context. That was in direct response to an allegation of men wanting to have sex without consequences. Like I said in the quoted post, I don't believe this issue should be about shaming.
 
Show the stats.

The US has the highest rate of single motherhood in its ghettos alone.

YOu won't post your stats because there aren't any./

Here's a reference. Not the stats your looking for, but illuminating. About 1 in 3 U.S. children do not live with their biological fathers. That doesn't mean those men abandoned their children. After all, women initiate 80% of divorces and are awarded custody in a large majority of cases.

Regardless, I can safely support my argument that "most men do not walk away." That's is undeniably true, even if you just take the 1 in 3 stat at face value.
 
Do you? Just because you give men a legal option, doesn't mean they are going to start inseminating everyone in sight. You act as though the only thing restraining men is legal risk. I'm not arguing these issues should be taken lightly, but the status quo is woefully flawed.



I'm demanding no such thing. Have you even read the thread? Besides, legal consequences are not the only consequences. I'm arguing for revision of the child support system and pointing out the fundamental hypocrisy of being pro-choice for one sex only. Above you put the responsibility for conception men, as if women aren't willing and able actors in this process. Consensual is not something that men do to women. It's something that two partners engage in.



Men are victims if they are forced into 18 years of labor against their will for engaging in consensual, legal acts. The fact is, if you give men a pre-birth opt-out, you arm women with more knowledge to make a decision. It allows unmarried couples to commit or not commit to parenthood together, not make one party subject to the other. Nowhere did I argue for men to be able to force women to have an abortion, although I have pointed out how the very arguments used in this thread could also be used to undermine a woman's body autonomy.



Your ignorance of child support laws are noted. The standards are based on maintaining a standard of living, not welfare or well-being of the child. If you believe what you've written here, you should be on my side arguing for reform: Base child support on demonstrated need and not just about extraction of income. And give non-custodial parents a voice in how their contributions are used by custodial parents.



WTF are you talking about? The state imposes those consequences. Are you advocating for abstinence, because no unmarried couple should ever have sex in your world.



By making the law unequal, the state is doing just that.

I’m not denying there are inequalities in reproductive laws.

However....

The continued argument - “Because a woman has a legal option to abort therefore men should be entitled to opt out of financial responsibilities of an unwanted pregnancy” has been a virtual swan song for all men. It is a dead-end argument.

For decades there’s been probably hundreds of legal beagles that have taken on these issues on behalf of men’s rights groups that have failed to bring a more equitable solution.

What arguments could you bring before our lawmakers and judiciaries that make them undeniably aware of the decades of the errors of their ways...and all will become willing to create remedies that will ensure equality for all parties concerned?

Remember, there are two parties involved in creating an unexpected, unwanted pregnancy. Then there becomes five parties, with varying degrees of interests, after a birth takes place.

1) the woman
2) the man
3) the child
4) the state government
5) the taxpayers
 
I’m not denying there are inequalities in reproductive laws.

However....

The continued argument - “Because a woman has a legal option to abort therefore men should be entitled to opt out of financial responsibilities of an unwanted pregnancy” has been a virtual swan song for all men. It is a dead-end argument.

For decades there’s been probably hundreds of legal beagles that have taken on these issues on behalf of men’s rights groups that have failed to bring a more equitable solution.

What arguments could you bring before our lawmakers and judiciaries that make them undeniably aware of the decades of the errors of their ways...and all will become willing to create remedies that will ensure equality for all parties concerned?

Remember, there are two parties involved in creating an unexpected, unwanted pregnancy. Then there becomes five parties, with varying degrees of interests, after a birth takes place.

1) the woman
2) the man
3) the child
4) the state government
5) the taxpayers

Thank you for making dispassionate argument. I apologize if I was a little snarky in my reply to you. My goal here is not to denigrate or shame others. I've seen what the system can do to good fathers. I've seen friends discarded and destroyed and treated as pariah and denied help as they struggle, broken-hearted and longing just be a dad to their kids. I despise some aspects of our current system, so I tend to get passionate about this issue, especially knowing that I'm swimming upstream and that my take on this is not particularly popular.

So I'm aware that decades of legal precedent stand against me and that many of the arguments I'm making have not fared well in court, although a lot of progress has been made precisely because there are compelling arguments for father's rights.

I also recognize that there multiple parties with interest here. So let me at least offer what I see as a more reasonable alternative to our child support system.

-- First of all, I favor universal health care, which will go a long way toward helping single parents meet their children's needs without litigation.

-- I believe fathers should have a legal say after conception but before birth in matters of adoption, so mothers should be compelled to notify fathers of conception so they can prepare to be parents and, ideally, be involved in raising the child or have the option to take custody should the mother choose adoption. Failure to disclose should be a relevant factor in later support lawsuits. However, I don't believe fathers should be able to prevent a woman from choosing abortion, as I don't believe women should be forced to carry to term. It really is their bodies.

-- Likewise, I believe fathers should have a short window in which they can choose to terminate parental rights and responsibilities. I do believe some financial obligation is appropriate in such cases, but it should be limited to established need, support for care during and immediately after the pregnancy, and be of limited duration.

-- Judges should have the power to waive back child support in cases where inability to pay is demonstrated.

-- No one should be jailed for inability to pay support.

-- Shared custody should be encouraged by the courts.

-- Child support orders should be based on cost of living and demonstrated need, not just on relative income. Non-custodial parents should have the ability to better their own circumstances. It's simply unrealistic to expect that a child will suffer no loss of standard-of-living amid a breakup, so that should not be used as a legal baseline.

-- Non-custodial parents should have a say in how their contributions are used. For example, if a non-custodial parent buys shoes or pays for tutoring or contributes to a college fund, that should count toward satisfying the support order. Currently, such contributions are not counted.

That's a small list of some of the problems I see with the status quo.
 
It's strange how conservatives who cite the ineffective drug laws as examples of how futile gun laws would be will say that making abortion illegal will end abortion.

Thats a fairly broad brushed assertion about "conservatives". Would that be most, one or two, a few or all "conservatives"? If that were most or all, that seems a fairly prejudiced caricature. If I were a liberal I would already be ready to call tha a bigoted post.

Most of us are fully aware that it would stop the state sanctioning of murder in the womb...and a corresponding drastic reduction of these mass killings over time. To draw you a picture, thats like 52 Las Vegas style concert mass murder shooting events. Just here in America. Per day
 
Thank you for making dispassionate argument. I apologize if I was a little snarky in my reply to you. My goal here is not to denigrate or shame others. ~~~snip~~~ I despise some aspects of our current system, so I tend to get passionate about this issue, especially knowing that I'm swimming upstream and that my take on this is not particularly popular.

So I'm aware that decades of legal precedent stand against me and that many of the arguments I'm making have not fared well in court, although a lot of progress has been made precisely because there are compelling arguments for father's rights.

I also recognize that there multiple parties with interest here. So let me at least offer what I see as a more reasonable alternative to our child support system.

-- First of all, I favor universal health care, which will go a long way toward helping single parents meet their children's needs without litigation.

-- I believe fathers should have a legal say after conception but before birth in matters of adoption, so mothers should be compelled to notify fathers of conception so they can prepare to be parents and, ideally, be involved in raising the child or have the option to take custody should the mother choose adoption. Failure to disclose should be a relevant factor in later support lawsuits. However, I don't believe fathers should be able to prevent a woman from choosing abortion, as I don't believe women should be forced to carry to term. It really is their bodies.

-- Likewise, I believe fathers should have a short window in which they can choose to terminate parental rights and responsibilities. I do believe some financial obligation is appropriate in such cases, but it should be limited to established need, support for care during and immediately after the pregnancy, and be of limited duration.

-- Judges should have the power to waive back child support in cases where inability to pay is demonstrated.

-- No one should be jailed for inability to pay support.

-- Shared custody should be encouraged by the courts.

-- Child support orders should be based on cost of living and demonstrated need, not just on relative income. Non-custodial parents should have the ability to better their own circumstances. It's simply unrealistic to expect that a child will suffer no loss of standard-of-living amid a breakup, so that should not be used as a legal baseline.

-- Non-custodial parents should have a say in how their contributions are used. For example, if a non-custodial parent buys shoes or pays for tutoring or contributes to a college fund, that should count toward satisfying the support order. Currently, such contributions are not counted.

That's a small list of some of the problems I see with the status quo.

Thanks, Joe. I appreciate your response. It wasn’t try to push buttons, but rather to attempt to move this discourse to a broader scope of the important issues.

To me the Opt Out aspect is a discussion killer when it’s the core argument that always leads to “but she can abort on demand”.

You’re right, the consequences for a blink of eye sexual experience can be overwhelming, and depending on a man’s financial status at the time, education, opportunity costs, etc are all in jeopardy or can potentially be destroyed. For some men they are like indentured servant for years.

But once a pregnancy is in motion the blame game becomes vicious. All of the should ofs, could haves, etc pour out of the woodwork. He should have. She should have. But after the fact it’s an exercise in futility to get any party to get into serious dialogues about genuine solutions.

Personally I’m against jail time. There has to be a way to better deal with hardship issues without compounding the problems and digging a deeper hole that a man knows that it’s impossible to climb out of.

I don’t see a mandatory legal requirement for a woman who’s conceived to tell the man. But I agree that 11th hour surprises of being told that one is about to be a father - and get their wallet out isn’t appropriate.

Yes, the list goes on an on. This is a serious and super complex issue.

Sex is one of the most common behaviors engaged in for pleasure. Some how, some way there has to be a way to figure out all of the related issues that max turn from being the most incredible experience to one of the most painfully damning experiences.

Civility and a genuine problem solving process has to happen. Such circumstances can devastate multiple lives and there are so few positive outcomes after the fact.

So in my mind, the only true solution will come from ways to prevent these unfortunate situations that take a toll on so many. So where do we start? Who’s actually willing to leave behind decades of failed attempt of doing the same things over and over again expecting different results?

I like the Health Care idea, btw.
 
No, the actual translation is that my having quoted your words and you are again trying to run away from what you have said.

I will transcribe the whole post for you and put in bold those remarks that point out your lack of understanding what a parent is as well as your outright lie that anyone is being forced to be a parent.






Try as you might to pretend that you did not say this, you did.

No one is being forced to be a parent.That is nothing more than you advertising that you are either ignorant or seeking a dishonest pity vote. Pathetic but even more pathetic is your lame attemp to run away from your own words.

Hey look ANOTHER post and still ZERO proof and support for the lie you got caught posting. Just more desperate twist's and NO qoute of me saying what you claimed i did. ooooops
Thanks again for quoting me proving what I actually said and proving the fact its 100% factually NOT what you claimed I said. Im guessing at this point you must of posted so many lies that you forgot what you claimed. Otherwise how could you keep posting more lies over and over again and think that anythign above supports what you got caught making up. Here lets check .. . tell me what you originally claimed that i pointed out was a lie that sent your posts into melt down mode. Please qoute it in your next post, im guessing you dont even know

Anyway, seems you lie fails again. When that fact changes please let us know and prove otherwise, thanks!
 
By that standard, there is no reason a woman can't be forced to conceive and/or abort, based on the wishes of the state. After all, they were "driving drunk," right? Therefore, they deserve the consequences.

That's a nonsensical analogy. There is NO reason, though, that the state shouldn't require abortion if the fetus is known to be badly damaged or malformed. The alternative is cruel.

It's interesting that you see sex as a bad choice. A new Puritanism, indeed. Under the law you're arguing for, no man should ever have sex outside of legal marriage. Yet you refuse to hold women to that same level of accountability.

Jesus, what a moronic interpretation of what I wrote. I'm not against sex, I'm against your argument that men should be able to do the very thing they know causes pregnancy, ejaculating vital semen, unprotected, into a woman. and then pretending they are victims of her pregnancy. Like I said, I got a vasectomy because I didn't want to impregnate anyone accidentally. It works great. That being said, life isn't fair, women get months to choose not to bear a child and men only get thirty seconds. Wearing a rubber is not an imposition, it's healthcare and lifecare for men.

If grown men don't understand their responsibility any more than you appear to, we're ****ed.
 
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