• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Men not being involved in the abortion debate

it's just me said:
It's an ad hominem argument designed to stifle free speech. The political left excels at this, I am surprised that thinking people fall for it.
Click to expand...

I've never heard anyone say that men shouldnt be involved in the abortion debate...only that men dont have the right to tell individual women what to do with their bodies and their futures.
 
Lursa said:
I've never heard anyone say that men shouldnt be involved in the abortion debate...only that men dont have the right to tell individual women what to do with their bodies and their futures.
Click to expand...

Why shouldn't men be involved in the debate? Wierd.

But the person who is most directly involved in the decision to abort is the person pregnant. Just because I am a woman, it does not give me the ability to tell another woman what to do. It may give me additional insight into why she came to a certain decision, but I cannot make it for her.
 
year2late said:
Why shouldn't men be involved in the debate? Wierd.

But the person who is most directly involved in the decision to abort is the person pregnant. Just because I am a woman, it does not give me the ability to tell another woman what to do. It may give me additional insight into why she came to a certain decision, but I cannot make it for her.
Click to expand...

Good point. I should have written that no other man OR woman has the right to tell individual women what to do with their bodies and their futures.
 
Lursa said:
I've never heard anyone say that men shouldnt be involved in the abortion debate...only that men dont have the right to tell individual women what to do with their bodies and their futures.
Click to expand...

We do if It's our children we're talking about.
 
it's just me said:
We do if It's our children we're talking about.
Click to expand...

Parents have a great deal of authority over their children...what does that have to do with someone presuming the right to tell a woman what to do with her bodily sovereignty?
 
Lursa said:
Parents have a great deal of authority over their children...what does that have to do with someone presuming the right to tell a woman what to do with her bodily sovereignty?
Click to expand...

Once a child is conceived It's no longer "her body".
 
it's just me said:
Once a child is conceived It's no longer "her body".
Click to expand...

Yes but the state nor strangers can have no influence over that unborn without her consent...or violating her bodily sovereignty.

The unborn has no rights to violate.
 
Learis said:
Well what counts in this case is that it's the male's body which is carrying the fertilized eggs until delivery. The whole debate is about "my body my rules". So yeah, men are allowed to participate in abortion debates thanks to seahorses.
Click to expand...

No, seahorses are not pregnant. No more than bird species where the males incubate the eggs.

You're the one trying to use seahorses as an example for your ideological preferences. Not me. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

Should you want to hear my opinions about abortion, then ask and stop beating around the bush by posting nonsensical biological examples of other species with no support for human abortion arguments in either direction. And stop assuming.

You want to be respected, earn it by being respectful.
 
Lursa said:
Good point. I should have written that no other man OR woman has the right to tell individual women what to do with their bodies and their futures.
Click to expand...

I have to laugh....if it were people trying to tell an individual man how to handle his medical decisions.....how would that go?
 
year2late said:
I have to laugh....if it were people trying to tell an individual man how to handle his medical decisions.....how would that go?
Click to expand...

I've had 9 women in my family haranguing me about my health since last Tuesday when I got results from tests on Monday. I grant, six of them are professional nurses.

Your Mom told me to pass this on to you:

https://whatscookingamerica.net/soup/jewish-chicken-soup.htm

Don't skip on the bay leaves, and of course you'll feed this to the men in your life. :)
 
OldFatGuy said:
I've had 9 women in my family haranguing me about my health since last Tuesday when I got results from tests on Monday. I grant, six of them are professional nurses.

Your Mom told me to pass this on to you:

https://whatscookingamerica.net/soup/jewish-chicken-soup.htm

Don't skip on the bay leaves, and of course you'll feed this to the men in your life. :)
Click to expand...

Cute.;)

Would you want anyone to legally have the right to interfere with your medical care ?
 
year2late said:
Cute.;)

Would you want anyone to legally have the right to interfere with your medical care ?
Click to expand...

Ask me that question right after the next time I go to battle with Medicare, as I often did with my private insurers.

Unfortunately, this issue of lawful interference with the health of others, doesn't truly address the important issues of abortion, pro or con, but it does distract from those arguments.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Ask me that question right after the next time I go to battle with Medicare, as I often did with my private insurers.

Unfortunately, this issue of lawful interference with the health of others, doesn't truly address the important issues of abortion, pro or con, but it does distract from those arguments.
Click to expand...

Interfereing with the health of a woman during pregnancy/childbirth is an important issue re: abortion but as it seems here, is often glossed over or ignored.

But perhaps I'm wrong about your comment.
 
Lursa said:
I see no reason why men cannot contribute to the discussion on abortion, on either side.

Perhaps you are thinking of comments saying that the only one who can make the decision regarding a pregnancy is the pregnant woman herself?
Click to expand...
I think in a perfect world both parties would be involved in the decision. But ultimately it is the woman’s decision.
 
Lursa said:
Interfereing with the health of a woman during pregnancy/childbirth is an important issue re: abortion but as it seems here, is often glossed over or ignored.

But perhaps I'm wrong about your comment.
Click to expand...

It is only important when doctors in conflict with each other over treatment and insurers are interfering.

For pregnant women, they should consider all other critics irrelevant to their decisions.

On a personal basis, I oppose abortion for reasons not threatening the mother's health or as a result of rape. However, I understand and respect the decision for an abortion to be outside my purview, unless invited to participate in the very personal debate for the woman making a decision.

And I firmly believe politicians should forego the debate in its entirety.
 
OldFatGuy said:
On a personal basis, I oppose "abortion for reasons not threatening the mother's health or as a result of rape"
Click to expand...
WHY? What makes other reasons to obtain an abortion less-valid in your opinion? My opinion is that your opposition to those reasons is as nonsensical as the opposition of anyone else. (Like, say, those who blather the Stupid Lie that an unborn human has some sort of right to live.)
 
OldFatGuy said:
It is only important when doctors in conflict with each other over treatment and insurers are interfering.

For pregnant women, they should consider all other critics irrelevant to their decisions.

On a personal basis, I oppose abortion for reasons not threatening the mother's health or as a result of rape. However, I understand and respect the decision for an abortion to be outside my purview, unless invited to participate in the very personal debate for the woman making a decision.

And I firmly believe politicians should forego the debate in its entirety.
Click to expand...

A bit off topic but after the post previous to this one, it brings to mind these comments:

I can respect what I bolded in Old Fat Guy's post. I dont have to agree with his reasons, but I respect even more that since he is firmly against something, he still respects rights and bodily sovereignty and the Constitution more (please excuse me if I've presumed this incorrectly). And as such, does not support standing in the way of legal abortion.

For myself, a related sentiment is that no matter what I write about supporting the unimpeded right to abortion...IMO you have to be a ****ing idiot to risk pregnancy without birth control if you dont want a kid. I seriously believe that. That or very drunk/stoned. For both men and women...the costs are just way too high, it's not worth it.

And I've thought this way since my teens and never in my life have I risked sex without bc. I TRULY knew I didnt want to get pregnant, the thought terrified me, what it would mean to my life. And I partied plenty in college, drank too much many times. Still, NEVER took that chance. It's almost incomprehensible to me that other women dont feel the same way.

But obviously, many...most?...dont. And I have to accept that, so I do. So I dont even bother touching on it in this sub-forum. There's no point, it's reality. That fight isnt mine to fight, it's not winnable.

I'm sure some will find this offensive, hey we all did stupid stuff at one time or another in life, I'm no different. But I still feel the same about this...that's how incredibly seriously I took NOT risking a pregnancy.
 
Lursa said:
I can respect what I bolded in Old Fat Guy's post. I dont have to agree with his reasons,
Click to expand...
I SIMPLY WANT MORE AWARENESS OF REASONS. All too often people don't admit they do (or don't do) something-or-other for purely selfish reasons. Anyone who promotes something but doesn't know why, or opposes something but doesn't know why, needs to thoroughly examine the motivation for either the promotion or the opposition. In any Debate, remember, there is a goal of convincing the undecided that your argument is better than some other argument. Well, mere say-so doesn't cut it! And so far as I've seen, a huge fraction of opposition to abortion boils down to "you should oppose it because of mere say-so". NOPE!
 
Lursa said:
For myself, a related sentiment is that no matter what I write about supporting the unimpeded right to abortion...IMO you have to be a ****ing idiot to risk pregnancy without birth control if you dont want a kid. I seriously believe that. That or very drunk/stoned. For both men and women...the costs are just way too high, it's not worth it.
Click to expand...

You understood me correctly.

I only differ with you slightly. While birth control is the best course of action for those who don't desire a pregnancy, it isn't always a solution. I've known women who's partner used a condom, others who used the pill, and one with IUD, who all got pregnant. No form of birth control is 100%. But better something than nothing. Condoms can break and leak, the pill doesn't always do what it should, and those little special men can circumvent the strongest of barriers at times. Of course it could have been an immaculate conception??? :lamo @ me

My first wife was the one with the IUD, and she was taking the pill for another medical reason at the time. We already had three, she had returned to school to finish her masters degree, and we weren't certain we wanted another. At the very least, she wanted to wait at least another year until she finished her masters before dealing with the decision making process. She has always wanted a big family and I had no objections. In the end we mutually decided four was enough. I grew up with 5 siblings, she grew up with seven. We both were as close as possible with all our siblings, and maintained those relations for as long as each lived. Now there are my two sisters, and one of her brothers and one of her sisters still around. We're all over 70 except me, I have another year to go, and she passed 7 years ago, too soon. Now I am fortunate to have remarried almost 2 years now. I married my oldest son's mother in law. His first wife passed prematurely, his second wife's husband passed prematurely. They met a support group for widowed parents raising children. They needed each other, and it has worked nicely for them. Both of their previous spouses would have been pleased with who they each found, both as companions and lovers for each other, and substitute parents for their children. And then they added twin boys of their own to the mix. I should have gelded my son. These two 3 year olds are turning into holy terrors. They are holy terrors and have been since they started crawling. I had forgotten how fast crawling babies can move. "No, dooooon't touch that!" as if they would listen to me.

My second wife and I were case of mutual hate at first sight. Friendship followed admiration for the manners with which we both treated all our grandchildren. Somehow I ended up with two important women in my life who both habitually prefer(ed) sleeping with their cold feet firmly planted in the center of my back. There's no hope. :)
 
FutureIncoming said:
I SIMPLY WANT MORE AWARENESS OF REASONS. All too often people don't admit they do (or don't do) something-or-other for purely selfish reasons. Anyone who promotes something but doesn't know why, or opposes something but doesn't know why, needs to thoroughly examine the motivation for either the promotion or the opposition. In any Debate, remember, there is a goal of convincing the undecided that your argument is better than some other argument. Well, mere say-so doesn't cut it! And so far as I've seen, a huge fraction of opposition to abortion boils down to "you should oppose it because of mere say-so". NOPE!
Click to expand...

What possibly makes you believe you are entitled to the reasons of others? Or that you can believe whatever you are told? You presume too much.
 
OldFatGuy said:
What possibly makes you believe you are entitled to the reasons of others?
Click to expand...
THIS IS A DEBATE SITE. How can you possibly expect to make points (or, since that phrase can be misinterpreted, present points) without presenting reasons? While you are certainly free to present an opinion and label it as an opinion, it has absolutely no status in a Debate. So, Logically, if you claim, even as opinion, that numerous reasons for obtaining an abortion are all inferior to the reasons of health or rape, well, either the claim is rational, or the claim is irrational. There are no other options. And I, simply because of experience in examining arguments against abortion, having created that linked page, am quite sure your claim is irrational. If you can prove me wrong about that, you would be the first.

OldFatGuy said:
Or that you can believe whatever you are told?
Click to expand...
LIES ARE GENERALLY IRRATIONAL. I'm certainly not going to believe the irrational (outside of mathematics, that is, where irrationals are very real).

OldFatGuy said:
You presume too much.
Click to expand...
NOPE; YOU DID. Starting with the presumption that just because you express an opinion at a Debate Site, it would be accepted without anyone questioning its validity!
 
OldFatGuy said:
While birth control is the best course of action for those who don't desire a pregnancy, it isn't always a solution. I've known women who's partner used a condom, others who used the pill, and one with IUD, who all got pregnant. No form of birth control is 100%. But better something than nothing.
Click to expand...
WHICH MAKES ABORTION A VALID BACK-UP PLAN. That plan is just as valid a reason for an abortion as rape or the woman's health.

CONSIDER ANOTHER ANGLE: If contraception fails, then any mandate that the pregnancy must be carried to term is equivalent to mandating the acceptance of failure. Nope! Failures often represent learning opportunities, but that doesn't mean they must always be accepted as final outcomes!
 
Last edited:
OldFatGuy said:
Ask me that question right after the next time I go to battle with Medicare, as I often did with my private insurers.

Unfortunately, this issue of lawful interference with the health of others, doesn't truly address the important issues of abortion, pro or con, but it does distract from those arguments.
Click to expand...

Why does that even effect the fact that you ultimately are the only one that can consent to what medically happens to your own body (unless you are unable to legally consent)

A person (in this case a woman) having the ability to make decisions regarding her own body is at the core of this discussion.
 
FutureIncoming said:
THIS IS A DEBATE SITE. How can you possibly expect to make points (or, since that phrase can be misinterpreted, present points) without presenting reasons? While you are certainly free to present an opinion and label it as an opinion, it has absolutely no status in a Debate. So, Logically, if you claim, even as opinion, that numerous reasons for obtaining an abortion are all inferior to the reasons of health or rape, well, either the claim is rational, or the claim is irrational. There are no other options. And I, simply because of experience in examining arguments against abortion, having created that linked page, am quite sure your claim is irrational. If you can prove me wrong about that, you would be the first.
Click to expand...

I'm not keeping score. There is no logic, an abstract of human thought processes, but nothing more. It isn't for you to define mine, or anyone else's beliefs. Experience is all we have, whatever form it takes. There are always options, regardless of your approval, understanding or objections thereof. I certainly don't care to argue with you, you are on strict broadcast.

FutureIncoming said:
LIES ARE GENERALLY IRRATIONAL. I'm certainly not going to believe the irrational (outside of mathematics, that is, where irrationals are very real).
Click to expand...

Life is not defined by mathematics. Such an assumption is irrational. You are betrayed by your own vanities as you lie to yourself.

FutureIncoming said:
NOPE; YOU DID. Starting with the presumption that just because you express an opinion at a Debate Site, it would be accepted without anyone questioning its validity!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the chuckles. Everything said here by any and all are opinions, and nothing more.
 
FutureIncoming said:
WHICH MAKES ABORTION A VALID BACK-UP PLAN. That plan is just as valid a reason for an abortion as rape or the woman's health.

CONSIDER ANOTHER ANGLE: If contraception fails, then any mandate that the pregnancy must be carried to term is equivalent to mandating the acceptance of failure. Nope! Failures often represent learning opportunities, but that doesn't mean they must always be accepted as final outcomes!
Click to expand...

In your not so humble opinion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom