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Men not being involved in the abortion debate

Sampson Simpson said:
Isn't it funny how men whine about how its not fair how they get treated with having to pay child support, or usually women are more likely to win custody rights, meanwhile, men have dominated women in every aspect for most of human history, they make more money, they have more power, they have much more of a say in most things.

The one thing there is an advantage to women (and rightfully so since its women who spend 9 months incubating the child, raging hormones, discomfort, sickness, and a risk to her life) and men are all "its unfair"

The men that do that are so ridiculous
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Just as an aside, in all the 'father's rights' discussions I've been in, there have been many men that agree that men should not have sex if they dont want to risk paying child support.

But of the one's that disagree, and want to find a way to legally opt out of paying child support, not a single one has ever even acknowledged that 'not having sex' is an acceptable option. They will not even consider it. That's just unthinkable. They believe that they should still be entitled to having sex without consequences as they have for millenia.

It's an entitlement mentality, along with the power all that time that you mentioned, that they find inconceivable to lose. When you tell them that they DO have a choice, just like women, but that it comes before sex...it's just not even a conceivable choice. :(

Yet that's what women have been told for...ever. And are still told to do every day here in the Abortion sub-forum. But not men...no, no way :roll:
 
Lord of Planar said:
Only this.

If men have no say about it, then it shouldn't be mandatory for them to pay the new expense for them called "child support." Women should not have the sole right to determine the unborn fate when it affects the father too, unless they also give father the choice to pay child support or not.
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So much for men taking responsibility for their actions. I guess you believe that is just for women and children. :roll:
 
FutureIncoming said:
I THINK IT IS WORSE THAN THAT. We all know that opposing abortion means controlling women. And there are plenty of men who think not only women should be controlled, but that they have some kind of right to do the controlling. As far as I'm concerned, almost every man in the anti-abortion crowd is someone incapable of convincing a woman that he is worthy to sire her offspring, and so must resort to force (of a more subtle kind than the physical), or bribery (turning marriage into prostitution).
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Lol wut? The abortion debate is merely about at which point is innocent life worth protecting.

Many men on the Pro-Choice side want to use abortion to control women. Going by the single motherhood rate, 40% of men can't even be bothered to accept responsibility for their actions. My biological father tried to force abortion on my mother, thankfully she told that POS to hit the road, otherwise I wouldn't be here right now. Pro-Life people see abortion as barbaric and feel for those that never get to experience life.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I didn't Express an opinion regarding abortion.
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LMAO you did it right here:

CLAX1911 said:
It's foolish on their part. A large majority of women support restricting abortion to the first trimester.

I don't think it has to do with the women in men what I think is that pro-choice people want to silence pro-life people. They're not looking at it from a realistic standpoint it's from the idea that women would largely support abortion which they don't.
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and here:

CLAX1911 said:
I disagree most people men or women that are against abortion view it as ending human life. I have never heard a man say they have any expertise in pregnancy outside of an OBGYN.

For people who are pro-life it's about whether or not a fetus is considered human life.
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Phys251 said:
So much for men taking responsibility for their actions. I guess you believe that is just for women and children. :roll:
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His argument seems to be about consistency and equality. If women are allowed to use elective abortion to prevent having children due to the added responsibility, should men not have also have a choice to abdicate their responsibility? If your argument is that abortion is about control over women, shouldn't it be also wrong to use pregnancy to control men?
 
Nap said:
His argument seems to be about consistency and equality. If women are allowed to use elective abortion to prevent having children due to the added responsibility, should men not have also have a choice to abdicate their responsibility? If your argument is that abortion is about control over women, shouldn't it be also wrong to use pregnancy to control men?
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If a man doesn't want kids, he has the responsibility to keep his dick in his pants. This is a very simple concept that does not require explanation.
 
Nap said:
His argument seems to be about consistency and equality. If women are allowed to use elective abortion to prevent having children due to the added responsibility, should men not have also have a choice to abdicate their responsibility? If your argument is that abortion is about control over women, shouldn't it be also wrong to use pregnancy to control men?
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And what means of opting out doesnt leave children in the lurch? Or make the taxpayers end up paying instead of the actual people that created the kid?'

THe kids and the taxpayers dont get to 'opt out'.

If men really want control, they have it, 100%. It just occurs before they have sex. As I wrote previously, this is generally unpopular.
 
Phys251 said:
If a man doesn't want kids, he has the responsibility to keep his dick in his pants. This is a very simple concept that does not require explanation.
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Do you apply that logic equally to women or do you support elective abortions?
 
Lursa said:
And what means of opting out doesnt leave children in the lurch? Or make the taxpayers end up paying instead of the actual people that created the kid?'

THe kids and the taxpayers dont get to 'opt out'.

If men really want control, they have it, 100%. It just occurs before they have sex. As I wrote previously, this is generally unpopular.
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I agree that men should take responsibility, I believe women should as well. The argument is about consistency and equality.
 
Lursa said:
Yes, men are not the victim here.

But being the one to get pregnant is NO advantage...it's been killing, maiming, and socially destroying women for centuries. We may have shared equally in the sex with men but certainly paid a much much higher price for it.

But I believe that men should have equal rights when it comes to custody, if they want it. And happily that is changing in family court, a trend to view men equally as the caretakers.
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Oh, I didn't mean "advantage" as far as being pregnant is an advantage, I meant advantage as far as having more say on abortion. The fact they get pregnant and have to deal with everything that comes with it justifies why they have the advantage)

I do agree, men should have equal custody, there is no reason they should not unless they are unfit.
 
Nap said:
I agree that men should take responsibility, I believe women should as well. The argument is about consistency and equality.
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If a woman gets pregnant, she has to accept the consequences too. There is no escaping consequences for women.

--have a kid
--miscarry
--have an abortion
--die during pregnancy/childbirth

And she can die or suffer severe & permanent health damage with the first 3 as well.

So it's not remotely equal, since men escape consequences in all but 1 of those options.

But it's consistent that women must accept the consequences too.
 
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Nap said:
Do you apply that logic equally to women or do you support elective abortions?
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Stop deflecting. We are talking about men's responsibility now. Do you or do you not believe that if a man doesn't want an unwanted pregnancy, he should keep his zipper zipped?
 
Lursa said:
If a woman gets pregnant, she has to accept the consequences too. There is no escaping consequences for women.

--have a kid
--miscarry
--have an abortion
--die during pregnancy/childbirth

And she can die or suffer severe & permanent health damage with the first 3 as well.

So it's not remotely equal, since men escape consequences in all but 1 of those options.

But it's consistent that women must accept the consequences.
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See post #31

Her argument was that if men don't want kids they should keep it in their pants.

Using that same logic, if women don't want kids they shouldn't spread their legs.

Do you not see how inconsistent that is? She is holding men to a higher standard than women.
 
Phys251 said:
Stop deflecting. We are talking about men's responsibility now. Do you or do you not believe that if a man doesn't want an unwanted pregnancy, he should keep his zipper zipped?
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I fully agree, my problem is that you don't hold both sexes to that standard.
 
Nap said:
See post #31

Her argument was that if men don't want kids they should keep it in their pants.

Using that same logic, if women don't want kids they shouldn't spread their legs.

Do you not see how inconsistent that is? She is holding men to a higher standard than women.
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No, it's got to do with choices. Women have the choice of abortion or pregnancy. And they can make that choice later.

Men, biologically, dont have the 'same' choices...they have to decide before having sex if they want control.

But in both cases, if they choose to have sex, then BOTH must accept the consequences of a pregnancy.

If women want to avoid those consequences...same deal: dont have sex. Just like for men.
 
Lursa said:
No, it's got to do with choices. Women have the choice of abortion or pregnancy. And they can make that choice later.

Men, biologically, dont have the 'same' choices...they have to decide before having sex if they want control.

But in both cases, if they choose to have sex, then BOTH must accept the consequences of a pregnancy.

If women want to avoid those consequences...same deal: dont have sex. Just like for men.
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Except if women don't want the responsibility of having a child they can elect to have an abortion to rid themselves of that responsibility.

If your argument is that men shouldn't be able to force women to have the child, should women have the ability to carry the child against the will of the father? This is a decision that will impact both of their lives forever, shouldn't they both have a say? (Assuming you see abortion as a perfectly moral and acceptable practice)
 
Phys251 said:
LMAO you did it right here:



and here:
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Those aren't positions on abortion. That's me explaining what a particular position is.

Notice I said the phrase "...people who are pro life..." I don't know where you learned how to read and write English but that group of words isn't synonymous with the word "me."

Next time read more carefully so as not to make a fool of yourself.
 
Nap said:
Except if women don't want the responsibility of having a child they can elect to have an abortion to rid themselves of that responsibility.

If your argument is that men shouldn't be able to force women to have the child, should women have the ability to carry the child against the will of the father? This is a decision that will impact both of their lives forever, shouldn't they both have a say? (Assuming you see abortion as a perfectly moral and acceptable practice)
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Yup. It's not fair. Is that what you want? It's not.

Biologically it's not fair at all. It certainly sucks for women. But again: we have to accept the consequences if there's a pregnancy.

Why is it unfair for men if they have 100% control...it just occurs before they take the risk. If they accept the risk, then they should accept the consequences. It's not like it's a secret.
 
Nap said:
I fully agree, my problem is that you don't hold both sexes to that standard.
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Everything you said after the comma negates what you said before it. You still refuse to consider the problem strictly as it relates to men. You stubbornly insist on playing the "what about the women?" card. I am not convinced that you believe in personal responsibility for men.
 
Lursa said:
Yup. It's not fair. Is that what you want? It's not.

Biologically it's not fair at all. It certainly sucks for women. But again: we have to accept the consequences if there's a pregnancy.

Why is it unfair for men if they have 100% control...it just occurs before they take the risk. If they accept the risk, then they should accept the consequences. It's not like it's a secret.
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If abortion is allowed (a position I disagree with) women should have 100% control as it is their body. The discussion is about the responsibility of caring for the child. If a woman carries the child against the will of the man, then he should be able to abdicate his responsibility to the child since she could have had an abortion.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Those aren't positions on abortion. That's me explaining what a particular position is.
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You can just stop right there. I will not entertain your deliberate twisting of words.

Notice I said the phrase "...people who are pro life..." I don't know where you learned how to read and write English but that group of words isn't synonymous with the word "me."

Next time read more carefully so as not to make a fool of yourself.
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No amount of childish insults will change the fact that you are doubling down on your bald-faced lie.

Let me help you. This is what you said, in the order you said it:

CLAX1911 said:
It's foolish on their part. A large majority of women support restricting abortion to the first trimester.

I don't think it has to do with the women in men what I think is that pro-choice people want to silence pro-life people. They're not looking at it from a realistic standpoint it's from the idea that women would largely support abortion which they don't.
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CLAX1911 said:
I disagree most people men or women that are against abortion view it as ending human life. I have never heard a man say they have any expertise in pregnancy outside of an OBGYN.

For people who are pro-life it's about whether or not a fetus is considered human life.
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CLAX1911 said:
I didn't Express an opinion regarding abortion.
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Bald-faced lie. The second- and third-to-last quotes are clearly opinions regarding abortion.

How you can be in denial about the very words you wrote is absurd. Stop lying if you want me to take you seriously.
 
Phys251 said:
Everything you said after the comma negates what you said before it. You still refuse to consider the problem strictly as it relates to men. You stubbornly insist on playing the "what about the women?" card. I am not convinced that you believe in personal responsibility for men.
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I fully agree that if people (man or woman) don't want kids they should take the appropriate measures: Abstinence, contraception, or adoption.

Edit: Considering I am against abortion, I am for both sexes taking responsibility.
 
Phys251 said:
You can just stop right there. I will not entertain your deliberate twisting of words.
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stating what I said is not a twisting of words is a repeating of words.



No amount of childish insults will change the fact that you are doubling down on your bald-faced lie.

Let me help you. This is what you said, in the order you said it:
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thanks for your help but it does not present my personal opinion.






Bald-faced lie. The second- and third-to-last quotes are clearly opinions regarding abortion.
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but not my own personal opinion. It's explaining the opposition to pro-choice.

How you can be in denial about the very words you wrote is absurd. Stop lying if you want me to take you seriously.
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I don't see where I wrote my opinion.

You don't have to take me seriously.
 
Nap said:
If abortion is allowed (a position I disagree with) women should have 100% control as it is their body. The discussion is about the responsibility of caring for the child. If a woman carries the child against the will of the man, then he should be able to abdicate his responsibility to the child since she could have had an abortion.
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And then so should the taxpayers have the right to abdicate..correct?

Or...why should the taxpayers be stuck paying for his responsibilities? It's equal...once the child is born, both parents, if available, must contribute. Otherwise the taxpayers get stuck.

The man has a chance to exert his 'will.' WHy do you continue to ignore that? If you dont want to pay child support, dont risk having a kid by having sex. WHy is this unacceptable to you?

It's not fair...it cant be fair. WHy should it be unfair for the taxpayers? We didnt create the kid.
 
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