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Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history[W:88]

Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Bucky said:
I have already given my personal experience of feeling pain in the womb. When I was in my mother's womb, I felt pain, roughly around the 15-20 week period. Are you invalidating my own personal experience?

But I am not a doctor. Let's hear from a legitimate doctor: Kanwaljeet Anand's profile:

https://profiles.stanford.edu/kanwaljeet-anand



Babies - Fetal Pain - Abortions - Women - Pregnancy and Obstetrics - Medicine and Health - The New York Times

As technology evolves, we are finding out how advanced and human-like these pre-borns are. Feeling pain is a natural human response. To say a fetus does not feel pain is saying a fetus is un-human, which is completely false.
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Wow. Just wow. That Dr described pain in fetuses LATER than 20 weeks. :doh It's right there in what you quoted.

Again, how low do you want to bring the level of discussion here?

And again: how does fetal pain matter when a Dr using anesthesia during the abortion can prevent any pain?

And again (after many many times)...these late term abortions are not elective....they are rare and medically necessary.

Please, tell me what of that information is not perfectly clear to you? How much simpler does someone have to break down sentences?
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Bucky said:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ident-american-history-pence-says/1046812001/

I think the first key for Trump is getting the Republicans to approve the bill to ban abortions after 20-weeks.

* Research and science shows a fetus feels pain after 20 weeks
* The majority of Americans want to ban abortion after 20 weeks
* The only countries in the world that do not ban abortion after 20 weeks are the U.S and 6 other countries that include North Korea and China.

The fundamental question we need to ask ourselves is are we going to treat a fetus that is 1-5 weeks old the same as a fetus 20+ weeks old? A fetus 20 weeks old is capable of living and surviving on its own. Banning abortions after 20-weeks is the right thing to do.
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As a prolifer I would love to lower time frame introduced but it has to be done right. Hopefully its done based on actual merits and science and not misinformation and lies like in your post where you claim a 20week fetus can live and survive on its own. Messages like that only hurt prolife movement.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Lursa said:
If late term abortion takes place, after 20 weeks, Drs can administer anesthetic so that the fetus feels no pain.

/thread
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That is correct and why a pain argument is a complete losing argument for my side and luckily my groups never use it. Also everything "reputable" that I have seen suggests that its no even possible to feel pain before 23/24 weeks and that would be the absolute earliest but the majority of evidence points to about 28/30 weeks.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Bucky said:
Yes, because we live in a democracy.
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I don't know where you are from but america is a constitutional republic.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Bucky said:
Plenty of medical experts have proven that a fetus can feel claim before 20 weeks.
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Fact based and reputable Links please. I've never seen anything reputable that even suggests that. Everything "reputable" that I have seen suggests that it's no even possible to feel pain before 23/24 weeks and that would be the absolute earliest but the majority of evidence points to about 28/30 weeks.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

LaylaWindu said:
As a prolifer I would love to lower time frame introduced but it has to be done right. Hopefully its done based on actual merits and science and not misinformation and lies like in your post where you claim a 20week fetus can live and survive on its own. Messages like that only hurt prolife movement.
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I cannot agree with you more.

Personally I am anti abortion. But strongly prochoice. I am in the market for commonsense pragmatic solutions. His lies take us further away from solutions that could happen with rational discourse.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Bucky said:
You are really embarrassing yourself in this thread. Just some advice, leave with whatever pride and dignity you have left.
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Newsflash: You are the only one that should be embarrassed since he totally handed your posts their ass and proved you wrong. I learned that the US was a constitutional republic in 6th grade decades ago.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Lursa said:
So, the "Family Research Council," founded to fight legal abortion, is a useless rag.

.
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That are a disgusting hate group and not reputable in the medical science community in any way.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

year2late said:
I cannot agree with you more.

Personally I am anti abortion. But strongly prochoice. I am in the market for commonsense pragmatic solutions. His lies take us further away from solutions that could happen with rational discourse.
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Amen amen. Sometimes its VERY disheartening reading what prolifers write on message boards because many times its representative of anything prolifers in real life do. At least not normal organized ones. So many of the nutters do nothign but set us back.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Bucky said:
I have already given my personal experience of feeling pain in the womb. When I was in my mother's womb, I felt pain, roughly around the 15-20 week period. Are you invalidating my own personal experience?
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Yes, your own personal experience is being invalidated.

When you first discussed this awhile back it was just worthy of an eyeroll.

Now you double down and are clear that you know that the pain you felt was in the 15-20 week period?

That wins the prize.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

LaylaWindu said:
:lamo FRC is not reputable, they are a hate group. Please present medical science form reputable sources thank you.
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Yes, I mentioned that.

My link was from JAMA.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/09/...fter-trump-administration-cuts-federal-grant/
This is an example of what works. A 50% reduction in teen pregnancy. I see what the problem is.
Some of us want to see a reduction in teen pregnancy through education and birth control and therefore a reduction in abortion. This has been proven to be an achievable goal.
Others want to outlaw abortion, attempt to control teen sexual activity, access to birth control, but won't take any other actions to prevent teen pregnancy through education or what to do for the teen after the birth.
Which of these plans do you see working to achieve the goal of fewer unwanted pregnancies and fewer abortions?
If your goal is for people to not have have sex unless they want to have a baby, you need to find another post to respond to. This one is based in reality.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Bucky said:
You are making claims that cannot be backed up.

Plenty of medical experts have proven that a fetus can feel claim before 20 weeks. Some 4-5 weeks.

You are wrong.
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Actually , a fetus does not feel pain until about 26 weeks gestation when the fetal neural structure is developed and it’s EEG becomes organized. before that it’s EEG is as flat and unorganized as someone who brain dead.

From the following:

As leading neuroscientist Michael Gazzaniga, a member of

President Bush’s Council on Bioethics, describes in his book The Ethical Brain, current neurology suggests that a fetus doesn’t possess enough neural structure to harbor consciousness until about 26 weeks, when it first seems to react to pain. Before that, the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead.
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https://www.debatepolitics.com/abor...ro-lifers-hate-w-295-a-15.html#post1067334574




Do you worry as much about the pain that the fetus goes through during labor and childbirth ?

From the IRCRC


DISHONESTY IN THE PUBLIC FORUM

the cruel fallacy that adoption is an easy solution to unwanted pregnancy – for any of the parties involved

minimization of maternal burden and risk in pregnancy – loss of wages, shortness of breath and endurance, pain, reduction of motility, vulnerability to humiliation, domestic violence and murder

overstating the maternal risk of abortion (childbirth carries 11 times the maternal mortality of abortion)

the incoherence of great concern for fetal pain at 20 weeks yet no concern for fetal pain in labor and childbirth

<snip>

the false claim of emotional harm from abortion and minimization of post-partum depression

the wrongful withholding of emergency contraception from those below the age of 17 and from those without IDs when the FDA cleared it for over the counter sales


the disguised motives of those who are driven to punish women for their unapproved sexual behaviors by forcing women to bear children they do not want and cannot afford — this is institutional reproductive abuse
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https://www.debatepolitics.com/abor...me-article-post1068028883.html#post1068028883
 
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Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

trblmkr said:
https://www.denverpost.com/2017/09/...fter-trump-administration-cuts-federal-grant/
This is an example of what works. A 50% reduction in teen pregnancy. I see what the problem is.
Some of us want to see a reduction in teen pregnancy through education and birth control and therefore a reduction in abortion. This has been proven to be an achievable goal.
Others want to outlaw abortion, attempt to control teen sexual activity, access to birth control, but won't take any other actions to prevent teen pregnancy through education or what to do for the teen after the birth.
Which of these plans do you see working to achieve the goal of fewer unwanted pregnancies and fewer abortions?
If your goal is for people to not have have sex unless they want to have a baby, you need to find another post to respond to. This one is based in reality.
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Pragmatism is a good thing.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

LaylaWindu said:
Newsflash: You are the only one that should be embarrassed since he totally handed your posts their ass and proved you wrong. I learned that the US was a constitutional republic in 6th grade decades ago.
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I'm not even American and I know that!
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Bucky said:
I have already given my personal experience of feeling pain in the womb.
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AND NO ONE BELIEVES YOU. Because you describe something that is medically impossible. Therefore you are just blathering yet another Stupid Lie.

Bucky said:
As technology evolves, we are finding out how advanced and human-like these pre-borns are.
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NOT MORE ADVANCED THAN COWS. Here's a brain-weight table, which includes the brains of a bunch of animals, not just average humans and average human babies.

Bucky said:
Feeling pain is a natural human response.
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IT IS NATURAL FOR INSECTS, TOO. But it is impossible if the nervous system is not developed enough, such as an early-stage unborn human.

Bucky said:
To say a fetus does not feel pain is saying
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ACCURACY MATTERS. Not the Stupid Lies of abortion opponents!

Bucky said:
a fetus is un-human,
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STUPIDLY FALSE. At no point in its development from a zygote is an unborn human anything other than human. However, you might agree that a human zygote, a single cell, does not have a nervous system and so cannot feel pain....

Bucky said:
which is completely false.
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THE MAIN FALSE THING IS YOURS. The claim that a fetal brain can feel pain before its nervous system is developed and connected to the brain is, and always will be, totally false!
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Scrabaholic said:
I'm not even American and I know that!
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Anybody with a very basic middle school understanding of american does. :)
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Bucky said:
You are really embarrassing yourself in this thread. Just some advice, leave with whatever pride and dignity you have left.
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FACTS > than your severely uneducated ignorance
but Please keep reposting, its AWESOME!
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

AGENT J said:
FACTS > than your severely uneducated ignorance
but Please keep reposting, its AWESOME!
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Did you address vetplus40 who also said we live in a democracy?
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

Bucky said:
Did you address vetplus40 who also said we live in a democracy?
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So you are saying there are TWO people in this thread that are that severely uneducated about america that you both believe the same factually wrong thing, thats hilarious :lamo
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

AGENT J said:
So you are saying there are TWO people in this thread that are that severely uneducated about america that you both believe the same factually wrong thing, thats hilarious :lamo
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Vetplus40 said:
To lead, you have to be principled. Trump obviously isn't.
To lead, you have to be willing to accept criticism to support and defend what you believe is right. Trump recently "caved" on a bipartisan agreement after receiving criticism from Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham.

The bottom line is that Trump cannot handle criticism in any shape, fashion or form. He is a very insecure man who needs "love, praise and admiration". That rarely occurs in any Democracy or Democratic Republic.

Trump is not an ideologue by any stretch of the imagination and is now owned by his base. Not overly complicated to understand.
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I actually am no fan of this poster however he is correct. We live in a Democracy or a Democratic Republic.
 
Re: Pence: Trump is the most pro-life president in American history

AGENT J said:
So you are saying there are TWO people in this thread that are that severely uneducated about america that you both believe the same factually wrong thing, thats hilarious :lamo
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So you are calling an veteran in this country uneducated?

Nice to see you have little respect for your military.
 
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