• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Abortion hurts women

PopeADope said:
The most comprehensive and largest study of the mental health risks associated with abortion,was published on September 1, 2011, in the prestigious British Journal of Psychiatry.The study was a meta-analysis that examined 22 other studies that had been published between 1995 and 2009.[1] The study involved 877,181 women – 163,831 of whom had abortions.
Click to expand...

Where is the link to this study?

Because it is completely different from the studies that have been posted here before, that the majority of women who have abortions do not suffer any mental consequences in the future and do not regret their decisions.
 
Bucky said:
What do you tell a woman that has an abortion and regrets it in the future?

That is something, you cannot reverse. The amount of guilt that woman must feel is overwhelming.
Click to expand...

We all have to make difficult decisions in life. It doesnt mean that it's the wrong decision.

And sometimes we do regret them... still doesnt mean they were wrong or that we still wouldnt make the same decision.
 
PopeADope said:
I don't take any pleasure in starting a thread like this. But I cannot remain silent about the murder of 50 million people legally every year. As I was texting this message many abortions happened.
Click to expand...

WHat people? There were no 50 million people. (obviously)

And can you please tell me what, if any, negative consequences this loss had on society?
 
Crovax said:
What about fundamental freedoms like living? There is a reason why the phrase is: “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”, life comes before liberty.
Click to expand...

It says "and." They are all equally valued.

And in real life, people give up their right to life all the time for their country, their religion, their principles, their families, etc.

So again, no one else has the right to make that choice for someone else OR 'guess' what the unborn might or might not 'want.'
 
I love you all in the sense that I want what's best for you. As a Christian we are supposed to have special love for our enemies. I hold you in my heart noble adversary.

I stick with the simple-minded belief that in God's eyes an unborn baby is a human being.

If you believed 50 million humans were slain legally, would you take a stand for life?

We all came from our mothers womb.

I cherish all the insults and correction from you. It makes me wiser and more mature.

But I must take a stand for the unborn child whose life is taken. Millions of aborted people would have been helping hands and good contributions to society.
 
PopeADope said:
I love you all in the sense that I want what's best for you. As a Christian we are supposed to have special love for our enemies. I hold you in my heart noble adversary.
Click to expand...

you have "enemies" here? wow so not only did your OP completley fail but your views are obvioulsy very extremist. Anyway good luck to you!
If you are american though sorry to tell you womens rights arent going anywhere. We are a first world county with rights and freedoms that protect us all. Banning abortion is a 3rd world country thing where they dont have dictatorships and little to no rights or freedoms etc.
 
PopeADope said:
I love you all in the sense that I want what's best for you. As a Christian we are supposed to have special love for our enemies. I hold you in my heart noble adversary.

I stick with the simple-minded belief that in God's eyes an unborn baby is a human being.
Click to expand...

I get it that you're answering from a religious perspective but can I ask you something?

Do you believe that humans can thwart the will of God? In other words, if God decrees that something must happen -- and a human comes along and decides that something else should happen -- who will win that test of wills?

Will God win? Or, will the human win?
 
PopeADope said:
I love you all in the sense that I want what's best for you. As a Christian we are supposed to have special love for our enemies. I hold you in my heart noble adversary.

I stick with the simple-minded belief that in God's eyes an unborn baby is a human being.

If you believed 50 million humans were slain legally, would you take a stand for life?

We all came from our mothers womb.

I cherish all the insults and correction from you. It makes me wiser and more mature.

But I must take a stand for the unborn child whose life is taken. Millions of aborted people would have been helping hands and good contributions to society.
Click to expand...

When it comes to being simple-minded, I'm pretty sure God does not appreciate us not using our brains to their best capacity.

Nor ignoring the majority of studies in order to pick one that confirms our beliefs.

minnie616 said:
About 14 times more women die due to childbirth complications than from a legal abortion.

From Reuters:

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Getting a legal abortion is much safer than giving birth, suggests a new U.S. study published Monday.

Researchers found that women were about 14 times more likely to die during or after giving birth to a live baby than to die from complications of an abortion.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...than-giving-birth-study-idUSTRE80M2BS20120123
Click to expand...


Your personal belief is yours to hold but *in real life* it really is no moral High Road and I doubt God would sacrifice women's lives for the unborn either.

The fortunate thing is that in the US, just like your personal belief, each woman is allowed to act on her personal beliefs when it comes to abortion.
 
PopeADope said:
I love you all in the sense that I want what's best for you. As a Christian we are supposed to have special love for our enemies. I hold you in my heart noble adversary.

I stick with the simple-minded belief that in God's eyes an unborn baby is a human being.

If you believed 50 million humans were slain legally, would you take a stand for life?

We all came from our mothers womb.

I cherish all the insults and correction from you. It makes me wiser and more mature.

But I must take a stand for the unborn child whose life is taken. Millions of aborted people would have been helping hands and good contributions to society.
Click to expand...

There are many Christians, Jews, Buddhists and other people of faith who are pro choice and who have come together to support reproductive justice.

Pro Faith. Pro Family. Pro Choice.

The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC) is a broad-based, national, interfaith movement that brings the moral force of religion to protect and advance reproductive health, choice, rights and justice through education, prophetic witness, pastoral presence and advocacy.

RCRC values and promotes religious liberty which upholds the human and constitutional rights of all people to exercise their conscience to make their own reproductive health decisions without shame and stigma.

RCRC challenges systems of oppression and seeks to remove the multiple barriers that impede individuals, especially those in marginalized communities, in accessing comprehensive reproductive health care with respect and dignity.
Click to expand...

Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

The Supreme Court recognized that we consider the pregnant woman as a moral agent in part IX of Roe v Wade.

From Part IX Roe v Wade

There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live' birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. [Footnote 56] It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. [Footnote 57] It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family. [Footnote 58]
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
year2late said:
Abortions (unless performed for severe maternal distress or severe fetal medical issues) are performed when a fetus lacks the ability to perceive pain.
Click to expand...

That's not what I meant. Abortions hurt a fetuses ability to exist. 100% of aborted fetuses don't go on to live normal lives...

And no, the inability to feel pain does not make it ok. By that logic, you could justify killing quadriplegics, and people in comas because they don't feel pain either.

It's just a lame excuse.
 
Last edited:
beancounter said:
That's not what I meant. Abortions hurt a fetuses ability to exist. 100% of aborted fetuses don't go on to live normal lives...
Click to expand...

except of course for the fetuses that were already dead and the fetus that live :shrug:
so not 100%, not that it matters one bit to the debate just pointing out your statment is factually wrong.
Also normal is subjective i could easily say women treated as lessers and forced against their will to risk their health and lives also wont live normal lives :shrug:

Women arent going to lose their rights :shrug:
 
AGENT J said:
except of course for the fetuses that were already dead and the fetus that live :shrug:
so not 100%, not that it matters one bit to the debate just pointing out your statment is factually wrong.
Also normal is subjective i could easily say women treated as lessers and forced against their will to risk their health and lives also wont live normal lives :shrug:

Women arent going to lose their rights :shrug:
Click to expand...

The fact that some may be stillborn doesn't change the issue for the majority. Further, I wasn't arguing law. I'm arguing ethics.

In other words, just because something is legal, doesn't necessarily make it ethical.
 
beancounter said:
1.)The fact that some may be stillborn doesn't change the issue for the majority. Further, I wasn't arguing law. I'm arguing ethics.
2.)In other words, just because something is legal, doesn't necessarily make it ethical.
Click to expand...

1.) nothign you said here changes the fact your statment was factually wrong, it actually doesnt even make sense.
2.) more subjective feelings that again dont change anything, nor did i mention it

Seems you are arguing meaningless talking points in your head, like I said your statment was simply factually wrong :shrug:
 
beancounter said:
That's not what I meant. Abortions hurt a fetuses ability to exist. 100% of aborted fetuses don't go on to live normal lives...
Click to expand...
beancounter said:
The fact that some may be stillborn doesn't change the issue for the majority. Further, I wasn't arguing law. I'm arguing ethics.

In other words, just because something is legal, doesn't necessarily make it ethical.
Click to expand...

In terms of ethics, how do you justify taking away the potential life and future of the woman in order to give the same things to the unborn? Is the unborn more deserving?

A life is more than just breathing (existing).

Here's a couple more thoughts to consider when discussing ethics:

If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women. (you did not say you valued one more than the other, but I'm pointing out that they cannot be treated equally, legally or ethically)


minnie616 said:
About 14 times more women die due to childbirth complications than from a legal abortion.

From Reuters:

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Getting a legal abortion is much safer than giving birth, suggests a new U.S. study published Monday.

Researchers found that women were about 14 times more likely to die during or after giving birth to a live baby than to die from complications of an abortion.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...than-giving-birth-study-idUSTRE80M2BS20120123
Click to expand...
 
AGENT J said:
1.) nothign you said here changes the fact your statment was factually wrong, it actually doesnt even make sense.
2.) more subjective feelings that again dont change anything, nor did i mention it

Seems you are arguing meaningless talking points in your head, like I said your statment was simply factually wrong :shrug:
Click to expand...

Explain how my statement that 100% of aborted fetuses don't live normal lives is factually wrong? Are you suggesting they live as ghost or faeries?
 
beancounter said:
Explain how my statement that 100% of aborted fetuses don't live normal lives is factually wrong? Are you suggesting they live as ghost or faeries?
Click to expand...

Easy

1.) some fetuses are already dead when aborted so the abortion has nothign to do with any normalcy of life, so that takes percentages away form your claims of 100%
2.) some fetuses live after abortion, hence why we have laws to protect them in that case, so again that too takes percentages away from your claims of 100%

So there you have it, the percentage (even though its just based on your subjective feelings and meanignless) will never be 100% and your statment is factually wrong based on basic math :shrug:
Let me know if theres any other mistakes I can help you with, you're welcome!
 
Lursa said:
In terms of ethics, how do you justify taking away the potential life and future of the woman in order to give the same things to the unborn? Is the unborn more deserving?
Click to expand...

There are usually safety nets available. It is unlikely to take away the potential life and future of the women. Also, a poorly executed procedure could put a women's life at risk.

Lursa said:
A life is more than just breathing (existing).
Click to expand...

True, but it is the starting point. Without it, you can't go further.


Lursa said:
If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women. (you did not say you valued one more than the other, but I'm pointing out that they cannot be treated equally, legally or ethically)
Click to expand...

I value education and personal responsibility. This includes the father too, who all too often walk away scot-free

Rape and incest are a whole other kettle of fish, and change the dynamics entirely.
 
AGENT J said:
Easy

1.) some fetuses are already dead when aborted so the abortion has nothign to do with any normalcy of life, so that takes percentages away form your claims of 100%
2.) some fetuses live after abortion, hence why we have laws to protect them in that case, so again that too takes percentages away from your claims of 100%
Click to expand...

Again, just because there are a few exceptions (the rare case of a viable aborted fetus) doesn't change the fate of the vast majority, and does not completely invalidate my statement...

How about if I say 98%..would that be better? :doh
 
PopeADope said:
A nation which legalizes homicide and kills it's innocent children is a nation without hope!
Click to expand...

Then please, go live where you can have "hope".
There's only a few places on this Earth left for you, but they are out there.

Look into Chile.
 
beancounter said:
1.) Again, just because there are a few exceptions (the rare case of a viable aborted fetus) doesn't change the fate of the vast majority, and does not completely invalidate my statement...
2.)How about if I say 98%..would that be better? :doh
Click to expand...

1.) actually it does, thats just how facts and English works
2.) No that wouldnt be better because its still based on you subjective feelings and you havent provided any proof/facts thats an accurate number. It could be (based of your subjective feelings) but we dont know
So at best it would be your unsupported OPINION and still lack validity :shrug:
 
beancounter said:
There are usually safety nets available. It is unlikely to take away the potential life and future of the women. Also, a poorly executed procedure could put a women's life at risk.
Click to expand...

And they dont always work and her potential future is still altered, period. Why does the unborn deserve it more? I see from your other responses below that it's likely that you 'blame' the woman for getting pregnant (irresponsible even tho many use birth control) and 'deserve' the consequences of having sex? As if the child is a punishment?


True, but it is the starting point. Without it, you can't go further.
Click to expand...

So you value quantity over quality of life? That is a common view for pro-life people. More boots on the ground, and their lives afterwards are of much less concern. Hence more than 100,000 kids that are available for adoption in the US I guess. And the overall push by conservatives to reduce that safety net of public assistance that you mentioned.

Not to mention that 86,700 in the US die or suffer severe health damage (stroke, kidney failure, aneurysm, etc) every year and it is not predictable or preventable (or it would have been, obviously)...so only a woman confronted with those risks should be the one to decide, no one else should have the right to demand that she take those risks and the govt recognizes that. This is a pretty clear ethical issue.


I value education and personal responsibility.
Click to expand...

So do I.

Rape and incest are a whole other kettle of fish, and change the dynamics entirely.
Click to expand...

ONly because you choose to judge the behavior of the woman and decide whether or not she is to blame or not.

This position (that you just wrote) uses the unborn as a consequence...punishment...for behavior. It really doesnt respect the unborn, because you do not treat it equally...you choose the circumstances where it matters and where it doesnt.

I just had this discussion with BlackJack. And that's his belief: that you should pay the consequences of having sex because you were irresponsible (no matter if you used birth control or not) and the "innocent" unborn doesnt deserve to die. But apparently it's ok if there's a rape or incest.

He also didnt like it when I pointed out that that innocence is no more than emptiness, a vacuum, since the unborn is not capable of thinking or acting or forming intent. So I questioned why he valued that.
 
PopeADope said:
II stick with the simple-minded belief that in God's eyes an unborn [human animal that acts worse than a parasite] is a human being.
Click to expand...
WHY ARE YOU PUTTING YOUR WORDS INTO GOD'S MOUTH? You cannot find anything in the Bible claiming that an unborn human is equal to a "being", a person (which can include, say, angels and other non-human intelligences). In Fact, the most relevant Biblical verse is probably Exodus 20:21, in which an arbitrary penalty, including zero, can be assessed for killing an unborn human.

PopeADope said:
If you believed 50 million humans were slain legally, would you take a stand for life?
Click to expand...
I DON"T TELL STUPID LIES, trying to equate human persons with soul-less unborn human animal bodies.

PopeADope said:
We all came from our mothers womb.
Click to expand...
IRRELEVANT. The concepts of "human" and "person" are totally unrelated to each other. We know this simply because we know of 100% living human entities ("hydatidiform moles") that not even the most vehement of abortion opponent would claim are persons. AND we know it because we are quite accepting of the possibility that the Universe is plenty big enough for oodles of non-human intelligent beings, quite equivalent to human persons, to exist Out There.

PopeADope said:
But I must take a stand for the unborn child whose life is taken.
Click to expand...
ACTUALLY, YOU NEED NOT DO ANY SUCH THING. Instead, you should stop lying to yourself, and stop claiming that an unborn human animal, which acts worse than a parasite, is in any sense equal to an ordinary child.

PopeADope said:
Millions of aborted people would have been helping hands and good contributions to society.
Click to expand...
AND MILLIONS HAVE BEEN BULLIES AND THIEVES AND RAPISTS AND MURDERERS AND WORSE. You cannot predict what a given unborn human will ultimately do with its life. You most certainly cannot assume that only things good for others will be chosen.
 
The moving finger writes ...

PopeADope said:
Problem is, I believe in God's eyes you were a human being in your mother's womb with an immortal soul. We abort 50 million babies a year worldwide. That's a lot of people legally Slaughtered.

I'm sorry liberals... I'm sorry I'm this way... but I have to stick up for millions of defenseless human beings slain legally.
Click to expand...

Apparently there was considerable controversy over the original article. The BJP promised to publish a summary of all the letters & articles that poured in as a result, & the BJP seemed to feel that there was more to say on the subject. See, for example, https://www.dwca.org/flawed-conclusions-on-abortion-and-mental-health-bjpsych/

"We have serious concerns about the methodology of the quantitative synthesis published in the September 2011 issue of this journal (The British Journal of Psychiatry (2011) 199: 180-186 P. K. Coleman, ‘Abortion and mental health: quantitative synthesis and analysis of research published 1995-2009’) and want to highlight these to prevent readers and policy makers drawing erroneous conclusions, in particular the incorrect statement that “nearly 10% of the incidence of mental health problems was shown to be attributable to abortion”."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

What was the conclusion of all that? & why do we only have the opening salvo in this thread?
 
PopeADope said:
Problem is, I believe in God's eyes you were a human being in your mother's womb with an immortal soul. We abort 50 million babies a year worldwide. That's a lot of people legally Slaughtered.

I'm sorry liberals... I'm sorry I'm this way... but I have to stick up for millions of defenseless human beings slain legally.
Click to expand...

Abortion is always bad or are there cases where it's needed?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom