Mary Wagner jailed again after entering abortion center

cpwill said:

Those who harm the helpless are often angry at those who remind them of what they are doing. Bless this woman indeed.

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Pregnant women arent helpless but certainly not deserving of such disrespect (being treated like children who dont know what an abortion is or as if they didnt really know what was best for their lives) and blatant efforts to harm *them* by strangers.

cpwill said:

Those who abuse others have always maintained the angriest reaction for those who point out those abuses to them, and don't let them look away. No one likes to be reminded of the uglier side of that which they justify. So I'm also not surprised at the vitriol against this woman, or those who expose PP.

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So your premise is based on abortion being 'abuse?' How so?

More than 97% of all abortions are the painless flushing of a pea-sized embryo or fetus from the womb. Painless for the unborn, I should qualify that.

It's not an 'excuse' to just make it easier to justify. Not if one believes that women should be able to make the best decisions for their own lives and those of their families, current and future...why would this even be questioned?

Ignoring the real life, long term affects on a woman's health and future potential is just as "abusive" by your use of the term.

cpwill said:

If the State is going to throw people in jail for opposing the murder of innocents :shrug: then prison is where we should belong. Good on this individual.

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"Innocents?"

The unborn arent capable of thought or behavior or even intent. They are 'innocent' only in the same way a flower or a fern is innocent...empty, a vacuum.

There's zero value in that 'innocence' IMO.

cpwill said:

But I like how, in this thread, you attempt to conflate "law" with "rights", and then give a nice list of incidents in history when those two things have not overlapped at all.

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Rights are a man-made concept, just like laws.

And as such, generally subjective.

joG said:

If one decides to create a human, one has had one's choice. Thereafter it is killing the human one made.

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So odd that you feel people only have one choice about things. On this issue, women have a few choices. I thought you knew that by now, and that abortion can certainly be a responsible choice.

Quote...
" She has no right to harass the women in the clinics. "
I've done it a few times myself...no biggie(not the late rapper).
Quote...
" to persuade women to choose life for their unborn babies. "
There was a "secret" clinic on the highway nearby and I joined the protest. I did it once and stopped four young women. Three colored girls and their families walked by me but what do ya expect.
Haven't done it for a while(sighing) due to time which you got to make it.
The struggle to save lives will continue which includes up there in mooseland where mrmacq(ahem) lives...
I'm done.
(walks away)

Lursa said:

Rights are a man-made concept, just like laws.

And as such, generally subjective.

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That is a far out theory of the history of law.

Lursa said:

So odd that you feel people only have one choice about things. On this issue, women have a few choices. I thought you knew that by now, and that abortion can certainly be a responsible choice.

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Oh. I didn't say anything to indicate that. It has more to do with bearing responsibility for the effect your behavior has on others, in this case the creation of another. One can often find oneself in situations of one's own making that one could escape by killing someone. But that is a poor argument.

PTF said:

Quote...
" She has no right to harass the women in the clinics. "
I've done it a few times myself...no biggie(not the late rapper).
Quote...
" to persuade women to choose life for their unborn babies. "
There was a "secret" clinic on the highway nearby and I joined the protest. I did it once and stopped four young women. Three colored girls and their families walked by me but what do ya expect.
Haven't done it for a while(sighing) due to time which you got to make it.
The struggle to save lives will continue which includes up there in mooseland where mrmacq(ahem) lives...
I'm done.
(walks away)

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Oh for a dislike button!

Sweden said:

Oh for a dislike button!

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Hold on Mr. Saab I have to go...
The clinic will be opening at 7:00 AM my time. I have to make a few "stops".

PTF said:

Quote...
" She has no right to harass the women in the clinics. "
I've done it a few times myself...no biggie(not the late rapper).
Quote...
" to persuade women to choose life for their unborn babies. "
There was a "secret" clinic on the highway nearby and I joined the protest. I did it once and stopped four young women. Three colored girls and their families walked by me but what do ya expect.
Haven't done it for a while(sighing) due to time which you got to make it.
The struggle to save lives will continue which includes up there in mooseland where mrmacq(ahem) lives...
I'm done.
(walks away)

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Yed, please walk away.

Secret clinics and colored girls? Seriously?

joG said:

That is a far out theory of the history of law.

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Feel free to explain how the concept of rights & laws is not man-made.

PTF said:

Quote...
" She has no right to harass the women in the clinics. "
I've done it a few times myself...no biggie(not the late rapper).
Quote...
" to persuade women to choose life for their unborn babies. "
There was a "secret" clinic on the highway nearby and I joined the protest. I did it once and stopped four young women. Three colored girls and their families walked by me but what do ya expect.
Haven't done it for a while(sighing) due to time which you got to make it.
The struggle to save lives will continue which includes up there in mooseland where mrmacq(ahem) lives...
I'm done.
(walks away)

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Jeebus. I think that sainthood has been premature. :notlook:

joG said:

Oh. I didn't say anything to indicate that. It has more to do with bearing responsibility for the effect your behavior has on others, in this case the creation of another. One can often find oneself in situations of one's own making that one could escape by killing someone. But that is a poor argument.

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Everyone of these things listed has affects on others. That's kind of the point. I'm sure you've seen this before:

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you cant afford and expecting tax payers to take up that burden with public assistance.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you arent emotionally prepared to have and may abuse or neglect.

--There's nothing responsible about remaining pregnant and dropping out of high school or college or missing work and not fulfilling your potential in society.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid and giving it up for adoption when there are already over 100,000 kids in America waiting to be adopted. It means one less waiting will find a home.

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The point is, you believe that placing the unborn above not just the woman but of society as well as more important. There's no 'someone' being killed, altho we all know that a woman can die during childbirth or pregnancy...should the govt be held responsible for that if they force her to remain pregnant when she has a safer option in abortion?

Sometimes it really does surprise me how the big picture escapes people...or is ignored.

Lursa said:

They should give her jail time at home, one of those ankle bracelets, so that she costs your taxpayers less.

And cut off her Internet. It would be a huge favor to her. She probably wallows in those awful, sad late term abortion pictures that are medically necessary and uncommon. I've never understood strangers dwelling on the unborn of others, self-indulgently personifying them, visualizing them, working themselves up over something to the extent that it enables them to completely disregard the woman carrying it...like she's some container with no life of her own that matters. As if the life of the unborn is more important?

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If Mary Wagner is breaking the province or municipality's law, then she needs to "rend unto Caesar."

And she's clearly willing to do this; all told, she's spent four and a half years in jail. This is civil disobedience, and it has consequences. Martin Sheen has been jailed over 60 times for his.

But why this malicious, judgmental speculation on how she spends her days "wallowing" and on what she thinks? Why this projection and contempt?

nota bene said:

If Mary Wagner is breaking the province or municipality's law, then she needs to "rend unto Caesar."

And she's clearly willing to do this; all told, she's spent four and a half years in jail. This is civil disobedience, and it has consequences. Martin Sheen has been jailed over 60 times for his.

But why this malicious, judgmental speculation on how she spends her days "wallowing" and on what she thinks? Why this projection and contempt?

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Because she is a habitual offender?

My issue with protesters is that they are also affecting people going in for all reasons. Cancer screenings and precancer treatments, birth control, infection treatment, etc. Anybody entering the clinic is looked upon as a person having an abortion - and judged.

Case in point. The clinic in question did not just do abortions. Women entering the clinic to PREVENT abortion through birth control were judged as well.

nota bene said:

If Mary Wagner is breaking the province or municipality's law, then she needs to "rend unto Caesar."

And she's clearly willing to do this; all told, she's spent four and a half years in jail. This is civil disobedience, and it has consequences. Martin Sheen has been jailed over 60 times for his.

But why this malicious, judgmental speculation on how she spends her days "wallowing" and on what she thinks? Why this projection and contempt?

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Oh not just her. I provided that as my generalized perspective on the people that make it their mission to interfere with women's lives, using emotional blackmail, taking advantage during a difficult period in a woman's life, because it must take quite a bit of disturbing & committed imagining to motivate some people (men or women) to be able to justify to themselves the harm and potential harm they are trying to accomplish.

Lursa said:

Oh not just her. I provided that as my generalized perspective on the people that make it their mission to interfere with women's lives, using emotional blackmail, taking advantage during a difficult period in a woman's life, because it must take quite a bit of disturbing & committed imagining to motivate some people (men or women) to be able to justify to themselves the harm and potential harm they are trying to accomplish.

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I guess it all depends on your perspective. Mary Wagner apparently believes she is saving lives. And others do too. I'd never even heard of her until this thread, but I've done some Googling. She's admired by the Polish people.

Back in Prison, Mary Wagner Inspires Pro-Lifers World-Wide – Catholic World Report

Mary Wagner, Convicted Anti-Abortion Activist, Gets Diamond Jubilee Medal From Tory MP Maurice Vellacott

year2late said:

Because she is a habitual offender?

My issue with protesters is that they are also affecting people going in for all reasons. Cancer screenings and precancer treatments, birth control, infection treatment, etc. Anybody entering the clinic is looked upon as a person having an abortion - and judged.

Case in point. The clinic in question did not just do abortions. Women entering the clinic to PREVENT abortion through birth control were judged as well.

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How do you know that Wagner or anybody else is judging women?

nota bene said:

How do you know that Wagner or anybody else is judging women?

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How are the women using the clinic supposed to feel?

Of course they feel judged,

nota bene said:

How do you know that Wagner or anybody else is judging women?

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You're missing the point, these women like Wagner should mind their own business and stay out of other peoples lives.

How would you like it if I showed up at your work or residence and started telling you how you should live your life?? My guess is you wouldnt tolerate it, and rightly so

nota bene said:

The OP's link identifies Mary Wagner as a practicing Catholic

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Just as judgemental and self-righteous as evangelical Christians

Scrabaholic said:

TORONTO, December 11, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) — Canadian pro-life rescuer Mary Wagner remains in jail after her arrest Friday at a Toronto abortion center where she and another woman were attempting to persuade women to choose life for their unborn babies.

snip

Wagner, 43, is charged with one count of mischief and two counts of breach of probation.

snip

Wagner has spent four years and eight months in jail to date for her peaceful efforts to save women and unborn children from the violence of abortion.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/c...ed-again-after-rescue-attempt-at-abortion-cen

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I couldn't find anything on other media, so had to use LifeSite.

People like her need to do serious prison time if they insist on continually breaking the law and violating probation. Like it or not, abortion is legal. She has no right to harass the women in the clinics.

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Good. What an asshole. That is none of her damn business.

year2late said:

How are the women using the clinic supposed to feel?

Of course they feel judged,

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You don't know how they feel, much less whether Wagner is actually judging them.

I realize mine is just one experience and one opinion, but it is based lengthy experience. I've never heard anybody condemn or judge women seeking abortions, only express sadness, concern and empathy for their situations. Abortion is cause for sorrow, not judgment.

From Feminists for Life:

Abortion is a reflection that we have failed women—and women have settled for less.

“When a man steals to satisfy hunger, we may safely conclude that there is something wrong in society—so when a woman destroys the life of her unborn child, it is an evidence that either by education or circumstances she has been greatly wronged.”—Mattie Brinkerhoff, The Revolution, 4(9):138-9 September 2, 1869

We insist on a world in which women have access to all nonviolent options. Think about the consequences of such a world for the workplace, schools, and society. We encourage woman-centered and parenting-friendly policies including distance learning, which allows a new mom to be with her child while continuing her education and saving on child-care costs; affordable family housing near campus; campus and workplace child care; health care plans for students and employees that include maternity coverage; telecommuting and job sharing; a living wage; and child support when one parent is absent. We have to approach this holistically.

Pro-life feminists demand that society support the unique life-giving capacity of women, so that no woman feels driven to abortion. Women deserve better.
Can you really be a feminist and pro-life? | Feminists for Life

From the Secular Pro-Life org:

Anti-abortion is not anti-woman.

It makes as much sense to say that the pro-life position is inherently anti-woman as it does to say that the pro-choice position is inherently anti-child. If you hate women you’ll want them to have fewer options; if you hate children you’ll want them destroyed before they’re born. But what does that have to do with the feelings and intentions of average pro-lifers and pro-choicers? Nothing.

Pro-lifers fight abortion, not because we want to limit women, but because we want to increase respect and protection for fetal life. secularprolife

Desert Storm said:

You're missing the point, these women like Wagner should mind their own business and stay out of other peoples lives.

How would you like it if I showed up at your work or residence and started telling you how you should live your life?? My guess is you wouldnt tolerate it, and rightly so

Just as judgemental and self-righteous as evangelical Christians

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The irony, of course, is that you yourself are being judgmental and self-righteous.

nota bene said:

You don't know how they feel, much less whether Wagner is actually judging them.

I realize mine is just one experience and one opinion, but it is based lengthy experience. I've never heard anybody condemn or judge women seeking abortions, only express sadness, concern and empathy for their situations. Abortion is cause for sorrow, not judgment....

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When you hear pro-lifers on this board calling people "murderers" clearly that is massively judgmental.Do you ever read those posts?