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Should the fathers of the unborn have a say in the process?

year2late said:
Well any person who gets pregnant can have the same choices and any other person that gets pregnant.
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Sure can. That in no way contradicts what I said.
 
Lursa said:
Well this is current law...if men felt that way, you'd think they'd stop having sex without more careful consideration. Or maybe they are just men that will take responsibility for their actions.

But somehow, I dont think every sexual encounter ends up that way. Does it? But again...if you dont like that possibility...why you would still have sex? And if you did...knowing the risks...how would you be able to complain? You have 100% choice to avoid unwanted fatherhood...why is that unacceptable?
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I could say the same about women who get abortions. Ever hear of the slippery slope fallacy? You're riding it, fast.
 
Lursa said:
So men can decide to abort their pregnancies? To have a baby?

Wow, then I guess it is equal.

But..are women entitled to sex with the same choices as men? Let's see: women can choose not to get pregnant from sex. Oops. Nope. We're stuck with the same risks in birth control as men are, but *we* can get pregnant, whether we choose to or not.

So, that argument doesnt hold water.
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Unlike men, you can CHOOSE not to stay pregnant. A choice men should never have. Or anyone.
 
year2late said:
So you think a woman who has 100 percent of the physical burden of the pregnancy has as much say in what happens to her body as the man who impregnated her?

Seriously?

As a person who should have had an "easy" pregnancy and ended up have several life threatening complications and surgery to boot.....I say....that is a messed up way of thinking.

Would you think it was equal if the woman you impregnated had the ability to make your medical decisions?
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As opposed to my financial ones?


How bout this....instead of paying child support, the father buys **** the kid needs, and the mom never sees a dime. Sound fair?
 
KevinKohler said:
I could say the same about women who get abortions. Ever hear of the slippery slope fallacy? You're riding it, fast.
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It applies perfectly and I've said so.

I expect it of women, why not expect it of men? I believe both should accept the consequences if there's a pregnancy.
 
KevinKohler said:
Unlike men, you can CHOOSE not to stay pregnant. A choice men should never have. Or anyone.
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Unlike women, men can never get pregnant...a choice that sexually active women never have.

THat's biology, and as I have also continually written, that is why it's ridiculous to expect this issue to ever be fair or equal. It's not possible.

But since both men and women are aware of their consequences, if they choose to have sex, they need to accept the consequences when things dont go as planned.
 
KevinKohler said:
As opposed to my financial ones?


How bout this....instead of paying child support, the father buys **** the kid needs, and the mom never sees a dime. Sound fair?
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Is that what this is about? Accusing women of using their kids to make $?

It would be way easier to have a 2nd job...at least then when you came home your time would be your own.
 
CLAX1911 said:
how have I ignored that please explain?

You think there can be equality, when biologically, there cannot be.

what on Earth are you talking about?


Every single discussion ever get in with a leftist always comes down to a straw man.

I am not a leftist. I am an asshole. And I know other assholes when I see them.

Why in the hell is a strawman so incredibly necessary for your argument?
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You said something about a woman cannot know what it is like to be a father. The thing is. You have no idea if the child you are being a father to is your child or some other man's child. You are being a father. Good for you as a superior male member of the species.
However, the mother, always knows she is the mother. It is her child, will always be her child. And no matter how loud you scream, how hard you try, you will never be her. You will never have that experience. You will never suffer the same pain of a loss. The same joy of the birth. Because you and I are men. Not strawmen, just men. And in this one very important way, we are lesser beings to women.
 
Lursa said:
Is that what this is about? Accusing women of using their kids to make $?

It would be way easier to have a 2nd job...at least then when you came home your time would be your own.
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No, I'm saying that you're trying to make men financially responsible for something which they have no options or control over. Think, taxation without representation. You want me to pay? Then I get a say.

But you know what? Women don't want that. They want their cake and eat it too. And, like you, they're perfectly willing to hide behind the fact that men can't get pregnant to achieve those ends. Sorry I can't get pregnant. How should I pay for that crime?
 
KevinKohler said:
As opposed to my financial ones?


How bout this....instead of paying child support, the father buys **** the kid needs, and the mom never sees a dime. Sound fair?
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Whatever the court decides...if that is it...I am ok with it. There are alot of changes that should occur....but there are so many men that think they should not be responsible at all....that becomes the issue. More creative issues become less likely.

If the two parties in question stop acting like assholes, many creative situations abound.

I personally took no child support. We had an understanding that somedays (not often) I would run late and slack would be cut. He also agreed to help out with some household repairs. By him being flexible, our child care costs plummeted. I was a renter, so the repairs he did just kept me in good with our landlords and there were rare rent hikes because of it.

But it required that we both act like adults and we stop the ongoing litigation of what was wrong with us as a couple and whose fault what was.

Now, if the woman applies for financial support from the government...the government is gonna want cash to be part of the mix.

Probably would be easiest for each party not ready to be a parent use birth control. But usually (and stupidly) it is one or the other.
 
minnie616 said:
Women are also held accountable for paying their share of the child support if a child is born.

If the unborn is/was miscarried, or aborted...the man owes no child support.

Also if a woman choose to raise the child with her funds , the biodad does not owe any child support.

The biodad pays child support only if the woman goes to court to ask for help supporting a born child.

BTW:
Over 50 percent of single moms do not ask for child support.
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Under...

52% get child support.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Totally. 100% her choice... as it should be. That said the man should get a post conception right to opt out just like she does. Equal rights.
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I agree, when the man is pregnant he should have equal rights to choose what is right for him.
Has a man ever been denied the right to choose to have an abortion or not when he is pregnant? Nope.

Men have equal rights, they just don't have equal ability to get pregnant.
 
wolfsgirl said:
I agree, when the man is pregnant he should have equal rights to choose what is right for him.
Has a man ever been denied the right to choose to have an abortion or not when he is pregnant? Nope.

Men have equal rights, they just don't have equal ability to get pregnant.
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Likewise, I fully support your right to grow a beard. ;)
 
wolfsgirl said:
I agree, when the man is pregnant he should have equal rights to choose what is right for him.
Has a man ever been denied the right to choose to have an abortion or not when he is pregnant? Nope.

Men have equal rights, they just don't have equal ability to get pregnant.
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This attempt at logic always leaves me wondering why people that post it thinks it works... i mean... it is stupid beyond belief but people keep posting it.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
Likewise, I fully support your right to grow a beard. ;)
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I've seen some women that could give some men a run for their money in the facial hair race.
 
minnie616 said:
According to the state some were sterilized by Choice.

From the article:



I dont see the US returning to sterilization as incentive to receive welfare again.
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I can see where doing it "without consent" would be awful, but I think a lot of people would like to be able to afford either hormonal birth control (for women) and I bet men wouldn't mind being sterilized if they didnt' have to raise a kid they didn't want.

Maybe not -- I dont agree with forcing anyone, but everyone's always saying that we should make contraception free.

I think they ought to reconsider. It would help a lot of people who can't afford to buy birth control or get fixed.
 
trblmkr said:
You said something about a woman cannot know what it is like to be a father. The thing is. You have no idea if the child you are being a father to is your child or some other man's child.
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It isn't that hard to find out.

You are being a father. Good for you as a superior male member of the species.
However, the mother, always knows she is the mother. It is her child, will always be her child.
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So?

And no matter how loud you scream, how hard you try, you will never be her. You will never have that experience. You will never suffer the same pain of a loss. The same joy of the birth. Because you and I are men. Not strawmen, just men. And in this one very important way, we are lesser beings to women.
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I agree.
 
KevinKohler said:
No, I'm saying that you're trying to make men financially responsible for something which they have no options or control over. Think, taxation without representation. You want me to pay? Then I get a say.

But you know what? Women don't want that. They want their cake and eat it too. And, like you, they're perfectly willing to hide behind the fact that men can't get pregnant to achieve those ends. Sorry I can't get pregnant. How should I pay for that crime?
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They do have an option, they do have control, why do you deny that? THe only reason I can think of is that you believe men are entitled to sex without consequences.

That's not equal, not at all. Women are not entitled to sex without consequences.

And I'd trade in a heartbeat the option not to get pregnant. Unless women are ready for kids, the possibility of pregnancy is a HUGE burden. So huge that obviously you dont understand it.

Biology determines that men and women have different options after a pregnancy. But not before. Again: why is it unacceptable for men (or women) to protect themselves from unwanted parenthood BEFORE having sex? And if they choose to take the risk, then they take the consequences.

Women already do. Why wont men? Come on, let's see a real man give a real answer here.

Otherwise, it's back to: men believe they are entitled to sex without consequences.

Women arent and never have been. So....not remotely equal.
 
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HowardBThiname said:
I can see where doing it "without consent" would be awful, but I think a lot of people would like to be able to afford either hormonal birth control (for women) and I bet men wouldn't mind being sterilized if they didnt' have to raise a kid they didn't want.

Maybe not -- I dont agree with forcing anyone, but everyone's always saying that we should make contraception free.

I think they ought to reconsider. It would help a lot of people who can't afford to buy birth control or get fixed.
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I agree prescription birth control should be available free of charge. It would save our taxpayers.

Stats say for every dollar spent on family planning ,taxpayers save $7.

The ACA allowed women to obtain prescription birth control with no co pay but it seems the new administration is trying to do away with that program.
 
KevinKohler said:
But you know what? Women don't want that. They want their cake and eat it too. And, like you, they're perfectly willing to hide behind the fact that men can't get pregnant to achieve those ends. Sorry I can't get pregnant. How should I pay for that crime?
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What exactly are women getting out if it? If they have the kid, that's important to them. It's easier to get an abortion. It's not all about getting at men, Good Lord! How paranoid are you?

But, what do you recommend that can 'make it equal', legally? What law that will still be in the best interests of the child and not place the needless (when the parents are available) burden on the taxpayer? How do you justify that? We didnt produce the kid, yet both parties that did KNEW going in it could happen and knew their choices.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
Likewise, I fully support your right to grow a beard. ;)
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Some women can. Either artificially or unfortunately, by ancient genetic reshuffling.
 
HowardBThiname said:
I can see where doing it "without consent" would be awful, but I think a lot of people would like to be able to afford either hormonal birth control (for women) and I bet men wouldn't mind being sterilized if they didnt' have to raise a kid they didn't want.

Maybe not -- I dont agree with forcing anyone, but everyone's always saying that we should make contraception free.

I think they ought to reconsider. It would help a lot of people who can't afford to buy birth control or get fixed.
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What is wrong with you? She showed you the sources, she showed you it was referred to as coercion, she showed you it was found to be illegal.

Give it up already.
 
Lursa said:
Some women can. Either artificially or unfortunately, by ancient genetic reshuffling.
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True. Reminds me of a Friends episode.

Monica: Name one job a man can do that a woman can’t.
Joey: Penis model.

:)
 
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