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Republicans prove they are not pro life...

You're perpetuating a massive untruth here -- just as is the author of the OP article.

Adopting kids from foster care doesn't cost a lot -- it actually pays. That tax credit only applies to adoptions of newborns, not foster kids. It doesn't cost much, if anything, to adopt older foster kids. You're whining about a tax credit that goes mostly to wealth white families who insist on having newborns.

Talk about a big old nothingburger.



Financing an Adoption | National Adoption Center

You are mistaken. The tax credit applies to foster children. Also, you are insane if you think it "pays" to adopt kids. You also quoted an article that literally lists the adoption tax credit as one of the reasons that the costs are manageable.
 
It is sad to see people make broad generalizations about situations with real human costs.

So you think this statement is untrue? "If you cant afford to adopt a kid, you cant afford a kid"
 
So...when a special needs child is adopted and they act out and end up on probation or a residential treatment program, that is super cheap?

Btw, my parents did, twice. I have 2 (now adult) adopted sisters. My mother was an ob/gyn nurse and was qualified as a foster parent for special needs babies. My parents ended p adopting 2.

But even raising kids that dont have special needs is expensive as Hell.
 
So you think this statement is untrue? "If you cant afford to adopt a kid, you cant afford a kid"

What is important is that you can afford to provide for the child, not that you can afford the costs of an adoption. It seems you are conflating the two. If I created so much red tape that it took tens of thousands of dollars to adopt a dog, I doubt you would be arguing that those who find those costs prohibitive in choosing to adopt a dog lack the financial means or ability to care for one.
 
What is important is that you can afford to provide for the child, not that you can afford the costs of an adoption. It seems you are conflating the two. If I created so much red tape that it took tens of thousands of dollars to adopt a dog, I doubt you would be arguing that those who find those costs prohibitive in choosing to adopt a dog lack the financial means or ability to care for one.

You are still wrong. I have 2 rescued dogs, I have horses. Horses are the perfect example: buying the horse is by far the cheapest part of owning a horse. BY FAR. Same with adopting a dog altho the costs for keeping a dog as a pet isnt as high.

Some tax relief offered for adoption should have zero bearing on a person's choice to adopt. BUT, if that savings makes a real financial difference for that person or couple...they cannot afford to provide for that child.

I have idea what additional points you are trying to make here.
 
Btw, my parents did, twice. I have 2 (now adult) adopted sisters. My mother was an ob/gyn nurse and was qualified as a foster parent for special needs babies. My parents ended p adopting 2.

But even raising kids that dont have special needs is expensive as Hell.

Your parents have my respect. Anyone who has been through this process knows it has very little to do with money. Children are not exactly an investment. However, lowering the initial financial burden reduces the stress, and I am sure your parents can tell you, adoption is stressful enough that underlying financial concerns do not need to be a factor.
 
Your parents have my respect. Anyone who has been through this process knows it has very little to do with money. Children are not exactly an investment. However, lowering the initial financial burden reduces the stress, and I am sure your parents can tell you, adoption is stressful enough that underlying financial concerns do not need to be a factor.

Wow, totally not buying that. And no, my experience does not bear that out with my parents either.

Nor is a "reduction in stress" justify a tax credit, reducing the overall tax burden on everyone.
 
Wow, totally not buying that. And no, my experience does not bear that out with my parents either.

Nor is a "reduction in stress" justify a tax credit, reducing the overall tax burden on everyone.

Let me give you one example. I am adopting a sibling pair. Up until a few months ago one lived in a foster home 3 hours away in the central part of the state and the other lived in a program 3 hours away in the eastern part of the state. Over a period of about seven months we had alternating weekly visitation with each which means we put over 40,000 miles on a car and paid for gas for those trips. All of that comes out of our pocket. Are you saying those types of costs don't exist?
 
Let me give you one example. I am adopting a sibling pair. Up until a few months ago one lived in a foster home 3 hours away in the central part of the state and the other lived in a program 3 hours away in the eastern part of the state. Over a period of about seven months we had alternating weekly visitation with each which means we put over 40,000 miles on a car and paid for gas for those trips. All of that comes out of our pocket. Are you saying those types of costs don't exist?

What???? Dont be dishonest, never even implied the bold.

I have friends and relatives that went to China and Guatamala to adopt. THAT cost $$$$$$$$. I still stand completely by: if you cant afford to adopt a kid, you cant afford to raise one.

You chose your path to adoption. Now it sounds like you are looking for a hand out. (I dont believe that, but that is exactly how your post read)
 
What???? Dont be dishonest, never even implied the bold.

I have friends and relatives that went to China and Guatamala to adopt. THAT cost $$$$$$$$. I still stand completely by: if you cant afford to adopt a kid, you cant afford to raise one.

You chose your path to adoption. Now it sounds like you are looking for a hand out. (I dont believe that, but that is exactly how your post read)

Chances are we get the adoption credit. I don't think Trump and Co will succeed in making their bill retroactive. Even if they did it does not influence my decision one way or the other. So "handout" or not, it would be nice to have but is not necessary to our financial situation or anything I would have banked on. That being said, it is getting more expensive to adopt, not less. A lot of the reason people are choosing foriegn adoptions is because they are cheaper and quicker than domestic. It has taken us a year and a half and we have still not finalized our adoption. But meh, as complex and emotional an issue this is, there will be no resolution in an online debate. Part of it you have to live to understand. We will see what happens to the number of kids who are adopted. According to you, if kids are not adopted due to these policy changes then they are better off staying in the system because their parents would have been ill equipped to raise them.
 
Chances are we get the adoption credit. I don't think Trump and Co will succeed in making their bill retroactive. Even if they did it does not influence my decision one way or the other. So "handout" or not, it would be nice to have but is not necessary to our financial situation or anything I would have banked on. That being said, it is getting more expensive to adopt, not less. A lot of the reason people are choosing foriegn adoptions is because they are cheaper and quicker than domestic. It has taken us a year and a half and we have still not finalized our adoption. But meh, as complex and emotional an issue this is, there will be no resolution in an online debate. Part of it you have to live to understand. We will see what happens to the number of kids who are adopted. According to you, if kids are not adopted due to these policy changes then they are better off staying in the system because their parents would have been ill equipped to raise them.

Going to China was expensive as heck for my cousin and the 2 co-workers I know that did it.

As I wrote, it depends on the path to adoption you choose. THere are many older, white and non-white kids available for adoption. They are part of county and state jurisdictions and the costs to adopt are in the few thousand. You made your choice.

And having seen the foster care system ALSO up close, it's not nearly as bad as people make out. There are many many great foster homes.
 
Going to China was expensive as heck for my cousin and the 2 co-workers I know that did it.

As I wrote, it depends on the path to adoption you choose. THere are many older, white and non-white kids available for adoption. They are part of county and state jurisdictions and the costs to adopt are in the few thousand. You made your choice.

And having seen the foster care system ALSO up close, it's not nearly as bad as people make out. There are many many great foster homes.

I imagine things may be a bit different near Seattle Washington than they are in northern Florida. But hey, it sounds like you have it figured out. I wonder what your parents would think about it if you asked them. I guess we will never know.
 
I imagine things may be a bit different near Seattle Washington than they are in northern Florida. But hey, it sounds like you have it figured out. I wonder what your parents would think about it if you asked them. I guess we will never know.

It comes down to this, it has from the start: if you cant afford to adopt, you cant afford to raise a kid.

Sure, let's see if there's ever any change if they remove the tax credit. We've had it for how long now and there are still more than 100,000 kids available for adoption in the US.
 
You are mistaken. The tax credit applies to foster children. Also, you are insane if you think it "pays" to adopt kids. You also quoted an article that literally lists the adoption tax credit as one of the reasons that the costs are manageable.

I posted the national adoption site that explained how adopting kids in foster care cost very, very little, if anything. The tax credit cannot exceed the amount of money the parents spend to adopt so the only ones befitting from the credit are the wealthier ones who can adopt newborns via private agencies.

This credit has absolutely nothing to do with abortion and you know it. You just want to protect a credit for those who adopt newborns. If they can't afford to do so without a credit, they shouldn't be adopting a newborn at all. The cost of a private adoption is around 30-35K -- the cost of a new mid-range car. Once the adoption goes through the parents will have the same deductions all other parents get on their taxes.

This is one tax credit that never should have existed in the first place.
 
I imagine things may be a bit different near Seattle Washington than they are in northern Florida. But hey, it sounds like you have it figured out. I wonder what your parents would think about it if you asked them. I guess we will never know.

Well then, let's talk about adopting from the Foster system in Florida. It's very inexpensive and the adopted kid also gets free tuition to Florida schools.

If adopting a newborn is too expensive, childless parents need to consider adopting a foster kid -- of course, some just want newborns and won't give foster kids a second glance. I don't want to help fund that kind of discrimination with my tax dollars.

Affordability

While private forms of adoption can cost upwards of $30,000, adopting one of Florida's children from foster care costs little or nothing. The required adoptive parent training class and home study are provided free of charge, and even court costs and fees can be paid by the agency if the family cannot afford them.
College Tuition

Florida's children adopted from care are eligible for free tuition at any Florida state university, community college or vocational school in Florida up until age 28. Additionally, some Florida private institutions of higher learning will provide free tuition for children who have been adopted from foster care. This is a great benefit for those considering adopting an older child who is closer to college age.
Florida Department of Children and Families, Explore Adoption
 
Are you being facetious or do you really think that is the argument I am making?

I really thought that was the argument you are making. You said:

Y
ou are basically arguing that rather than increasing the potential pool of families that could adopt by allowing them to keep more of their taxable earnings, we should let kids rot in a more expensive and ineffective system.

I think it's a reasonable conclusion to make that you are saying that the potential pool of families will not increase because the tax break is gone. Which means, they won't adopt because they won't get a tax break.
 
Thank you Republicans for dropping the charade with your tax bill. We can see your true colors now. Abolishing the adoption tax credit? Really? The National Review said it best...



Adoption Tax Credit: A Pro-Life Policy Republicans Must Save | National Review

But what is important here is you could build one air craft carrier with the revenue that eliminating this credit will generate for the Feds in 10 years. Tens of thousands of vulnerable children may now be priced out of a forever family because Republicans think the estate tax is such an unethical financial burden on families worth nearly $6 million. Priorities, right?

If a young person's life is so important to society, than why are we profiting from adoption to begin with?

Adoption agencies are a 13 billion dollar industry while the government does 90% of the leg work to begin with.
 
Well then, let's talk about adopting from the Foster system in Florida. It's very inexpensive and the adopted kid also gets free tuition to Florida schools.

Good point. My parents are in N. NJ, and received foster kids from Patterson, NJ. A very socio-economically and ethnically mixed area.
 
I posted the national adoption site that explained how adopting kids in foster care cost very, very little, if anything. .

And there are plenty of those kids available for adoption. But...most are not perfect, white infants.

As I wrote, people choose different paths for adoption and some cost more than others. But it is a choice.
 
And there are plenty of those kids available for adoption. But...most are not perfect, white infants.

As I wrote, people choose different paths for adoption and some cost more than others. But it is a choice.

True. I, personally, have a hard time with taxpayers funding the adoption of lily white newborns, via tax credits, when so many other children are looking for homes. I'm sorry that some couples have trouble conceiving -- that must be heartbreaking -- and I fully support their desire to find a white newborn if that's what they really want, but, because lots of older and mixed-race children are available, I don't think we need to focus financial help on the adoption of newborns. And that's mostly what this tax credit is, because it's refund based on the money the adoptive parents spend. If they don't spend any money, or very little -- like the parents who adopt foster children -- they don't receive much of a credit. Only if they spend the money for a private adoption does it cost upward of 30K.

You're right, it is a choice. But, I disagree with the OP that the ending of the tax credit will affect abortion or the number of kids adopted from foster care.
 
True. I, personally, have a hard time with taxpayers funding the adoption of lily white newborns,

I dont really. Every child should have a loving home. But one problem is, perfectly healthy white infants are not the majority of those available for adoption and so instead of adopting other children that need homes, couples that do have $$ will contract with women as surrogates or already pregnant mothers (of their chosen ethnicity or race) and pay more to ensure they get what they want.

I am not judging that. Truly. As I wrote, everyone's path to adoption is different. But it does, just like the proposed solution in this thread, not help the children already awaiting adoption.
 
What I do not support is emotional appeals via labeling developing zygotes "human life" as if this is the equivalent of "human being."
You have to support appeals to emotion because emotions are what enable us to distinguish right from wrong. What you don't want to support are appeals to irrational beliefs that trigger emotions. Beliefs such as the separation of mind and body, the soul or spirit, life after death, and deities. You should support the facts and the fact is that a zygote is a human being, with a unique genome. It's level of maturity is irrelevant in the context of abortion.

The issue of abortion is entirely a matter of consent. Everyone has a right to consent as well as an obligation to obtain consent.
The way consent works is:
1. It must be explicitly given; it cannot be assumed.
2. It only applies to the person it's given to; it does not automatically transfer to other persons.
3. It can be withdrawn at any time for any reason or no reason at all.

As a human being, an embryo has the same rights and obligations as everyone else. That includes a right to life and an obligation to obtain consent. Without it's mother's consent, the embryo's impregnation of it's mother is an assault. The right to consent necessitates a right to self defense; with lethal force as a last resort. In the case of a non-consensual pregnancy, abortion is the only resort.

Now it's important to be clear that the one-and-only purpose of abortion is to end a non-consensual pregnancy. It is NOT a right, permit, license to murder the unborn or to murder already born children. The unborn still have a right to life so every effort must be made to save them while performing abortions. Deliberately killing a baby, especially after it's been removed from it's mother, is straight up murder.

Unborn babies have the highest chance of survival in the late term so, rather than banning all late-term abortions, we should ban the use of cruel and lethal abortion methods.
 
As a human being, an embryo has the same rights and obligations as everyone else.

That is your opinion, legally it is false.

U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8
(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.

(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.

It is also impossible to treat the unborn and born equally under the law (and IMO, ethically also not possible).


I see you have not posted much on the DP forum....welcome.
 
You have to support appeals to emotion because emotions are what enable us to distinguish right from wrong. What you don't want to support are appeals to irrational beliefs that trigger emotions. Beliefs such as the separation of mind and body, the soul or spirit, life after death, and deities. You should support the facts and the fact is that a zygote is a human being, with a unique genome. It's level of maturity is irrelevant in the context of abortion.

Not quite. :no:

In fact, it is emotions that often lead to actions we consider wrong. For example, Murder is the killing of another human being. Yet we don't consider it "murder" when done in the line of police and military duty, or accident; only during the commission of a crime either of passion, greed, or revenge.

The issue of abortion is entirely a matter of consent. Everyone has a right to consent as well as an obligation to obtain consent.

Not according to our current law. The male has no say in the process, the female has the final decision because it is her body and her nine month burden.

Nor is the male freed from subsequent obligations, for example the female can sue (and typically win) child support from the male for the next 18 years.

Neither of those require any consent from him.

The way consent works is:
1. It must be explicitly given; it cannot be assumed.
2. It only applies to the person it's given to; it does not automatically transfer to other persons.
3. It can be withdrawn at any time for any reason or no reason at all.

In order to give consent, you must not only be a participant, but capable of giving informed consent. Otherwise, as either a juvenile or determined to be incompetent, the only consent required is that of the parent or legal guardian.

Zygotes can't give or withdraw consent. Embryos' can't give or withdraw consent. Fetuses can't give or withdraw consent. Thus, even were we to accept your argument, per the above the mother has the power to do so.

As a human being, an embryo has the same rights and obligations as everyone else. That includes a right to life and an obligation to obtain consent. Without it's mother's consent, the embryo's impregnation of it's mother is an assault. The right to consent necessitates a right to self defense; with lethal force as a last resort. In the case of a non-consensual pregnancy, abortion is the only resort.

Here you assume the developing cells are a "human being" from inception, and therein lies the rub...because you are equating developing cells (human life) with a Human Being, which is a much more complicated thing.

For example; while every single cell in your body is a human cell, and each is a living entity...consuming, growing, replicating...it is not a Human Being.

Now it's important to be clear that the one-and-only purpose of abortion is to end a non-consensual pregnancy. It is NOT a right, permit, license to murder the unborn or to murder already born children. The unborn still have a right to life so every effort must be made to save them while performing abortions. Deliberately killing a baby, especially after it's been removed from it's mother, is straight up murder.

Unborn babies have the highest chance of survival in the late term so, rather than banning all late-term abortions, we should ban the use of cruel and lethal abortion methods.

Here you go down the rabbit hole of emotional appeals, comparing a fully developed and born "child" with a zygote (first trimester), an embryo (first and second trimester), and fetus (third trimester).

Unlike your emotional appeal, the law is based on a rational understanding of the differences occurring in each phase of development...which is why abortions are limited depending on the stage of development, and not treated like a "Child" from inception.

Soooo.. it seems that you are presenting an emotional appeal rather than a rational argument and "feelings" do not trump another individual's rights when it comes to what they can or cannot do with their own bodies.
 
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Unborn babies have the highest chance of survival in the late term so, rather than banning all late-term abortions, we should ban the use of cruel and lethal abortion methods.

You have false information if you believe this is necessary.

For one thing, of course abortion is lethal but there's no cruelty. The unborn is completely unaware of what's happening and is given anesthetic before or as part of the lethal injection.

So the emotional appeal there is not valid.

And in general not a concern, because "elective" late term abortions dont occur. Medically necessary ones do, unfortunately. This can apply to the mother, the unborn, or both.

So perhaps you will not be disturbed about these particular points in the future.
 
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