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Our Own Auschwiz[W:602]

People like you, who are willing to have a relaxed and intelligent discussion (without the "hate"), are worth responding to.

I appreciate this.

Altho I try to avoid it, I know that sometimes I get sarcastic but it's generally a product of frustration.
 
I appreciate this.

Altho I try to avoid it, I know that sometimes I get sarcastic but it's generally a product of frustration.

I sometimes let situations get the best of me too, it's all part of the human condition... =)
 
I understand where you're coming from, and realize that if you need verifiable earthly evidence, I can't think of a way to provide that to you,
OBVIOUSLY, THERE ISN'T ANY. At least about things called "godly" or "ungodly". It might be possible to point to other evidence associated with God's existence, but none of that has anything to do with human claims about "godly" or "ungodly". Not even the most devout religionist claims God literally sat down somewhere and wrote the Bible. Humans wrote it, and it is well-known that humans are capable of lying for their own benefit. They even bragged about it in Deuteronomy 17:9-12 --the Bible exists to support the socio-political power of those who wrote it.

but I still find it sad that you and others can't "see" that abortion is no different than taking away the life of you, me, and any other person outside the womb.
WE DON'T SEE IT BECAUSE IT IS EXTREMELY DIFFERENT. Human life is not what makes us superior to other life-forms on Earth. Human life has absolutely nothing to do with personhood, and it is persons that you are talking about when you say "taking away the life of you, me, and any other person outside the womb". You even KNOW what a person truly is, and can prove it to yourself by Answering this simple Question: "If you were visiting a modern well-equipped medical laboratory, and some madman with a machete cut your head off in an attempt to murder you, but rescuers arrived in time, would you want them to save your headless human body, or your severed head, to save YOU-THE-PERSON?" (And we most certainly do have the medical technology to save your choice, else "head transplants" would not have been in the news recently.)

The Fact Is, persons are made, not born. We even have proof of that, which you can see right here, thanks to abortion opponents who had all the political power you could wish for. Relevant paraphrase of a quote: "It is not what you don't know that hurts you so much as what you do know that ain't so." --Mark Twain So get yourself educated, and stop opposing the abortions of unwanted mindless parasitic animals, the same as you don't oppose the killing of rats.
 
OBVIOUSLY, THERE ISN'T ANY. At least about things called "godly" or "ungodly". It might be possible to point to other evidence associated with God's existence, but none of that has anything to do with human claims about "godly" or "ungodly". Not even the most devout religionist claims God literally sat down somewhere and wrote the Bible. Humans wrote it, and it is well-known that humans are capable of lying for their own benefit. They even bragged about it in Deuteronomy 17:9-12 --the Bible exists to support the socio-political power of those who wrote it.


WE DON'T SEE IT BECAUSE IT IS EXTREMELY DIFFERENT. Human life is not what makes us superior to other life-forms on Earth. Human life has absolutely nothing to do with personhood, and it is persons that you are talking about when you say "taking away the life of you, me, and any other person outside the womb". You even KNOW what a person truly is, and can prove it to yourself by Answering this simple Question: "If you were visiting a modern well-equipped medical laboratory, and some madman with a machete cut your head off in an attempt to murder you, but rescuers arrived in time, would you want them to save your headless human body, or your severed head, to save YOU-THE-PERSON?" (And we most certainly do have the medical technology to save your choice, else "head transplants" would not have been in the news recently.)

The Fact Is, persons are made, not born. We even have proof of that, which you can see right here, thanks to abortion opponents who had all the political power you could wish for. Relevant paraphrase of a quote: "It is not what you don't know that hurts you so much as what you do know that ain't so." --Mark Twain So get yourself educated, and stop opposing the abortions of unwanted mindless parasitic animals, the same as you don't oppose the killing of rats.
Adolf Hitler would be so proud of you right now. How dare you call the most innocent among us parasites. There is no greater gift this side of heaven than a new person conceived.
 
Adolf Hitler would be so proud of you right now. How dare you call the most innocent among us parasites. There is no greater gift this side of heaven than a new person conceived.

Not everyone considers a pregnancy a "great gift".
 
Adolf Hitler would be so proud of you right now.
FALSE. Hitler was an abortion opponent, and therefore expressed the same idiocy as all the other abortion opponents out there.

How dare you call the most innocent among us parasites.
I MOST CERTAINLY DARE WHEN IT IS OBJECTIVELY MEASURABLE TRUTH. Unborn humans are 100% guilty of performing actions very equivalent to those of parasites. And worse. If an adult human did any one of those things that I linked, he or she could be arrested and successfully prosecuted for assault. But there is no way to stop the assaults of an unborn human RIGHT NOW (equivalent to "arrest") without killing it.


There is no greater gift this side of heaven than a new person conceived.
FOUR STUPID LIES. Overpopulation is a curse, not a gift, and only idiots dare promote making it worse. Second, persons are not conceived, they are made, and that statement can be totally proved true --see the link in my message that you quoted. Third, heaven has nothing to do with human reproductive biology in almost all cases (only three claimed exceptions in Biblical history); only idiot religionists would claim that their perfect God is responsible for the horrible genetic defects that cause about 1/6 of all confirmed pregnancies to miscarry. And fourth, it is totally impossible for unborn humans to qualify as persons. Just answer the question in red text that you quoted from my other message, and see for yourself.
 
And they are the selfish ones. No heart whatsoever.

Please name some non-selfish reasons that people have kids (besides accidenally)? Because no one has them to contribute to society or to help population growth...that would be total BS.
 
How dare you call the most innocent among us parasites.
NECESSARY EDIT: I SPECIFICALLY DID NOT DO THAT. I called the unborn "unwanted mindless parasitic animals", which is technically different from "parasites". The word "parasitic" describes actions, and there is absolutely no doubt that the actions of unborn humans qualify as "parasitic". True parasites, however, are always members of a species different from the host-species, and so it is impossible for unborn humans to actually qualify as "parasites". But "parasitic"? Absolutely! That Is Most Certainly Objectively Measurable Truth!
 
Nobody 'likes' abortion. As written earlier, life is full of many harsh decisions. Doesnt mean those decisions are wrong.

Forcing a woman to have a child against her will is about as ugly and unethical as I can think of. Even if you are not an American, considering what that would take, legally, is utterly demeaning and possibly deadly.

The only ones, where force would be involved are the cases of rape. In the other ones, the girl made her decisions and then squeaks "force".
 
A STUPIDLY PREJUDICED LIE. Simply because "mass murder of humans" is not automatically also the same thing as "mass murder of persons", and in fact is a non-sequitur (because the word "murder" only applies to killing persons, not non-persons that happen to be human, like, say, hydatidiform moles). Perhaps I should somewhat reiterate something I challenged you to do in Msg#864: Prove that when a manicurist trims cuticles, hundreds of human lives are NOT ended!


AND ETHICS IS MOSTLY ABOUT INTERACTIONS BETWEEN PERSONS. There is no major reason to be ethical toward an entity that acts worse than a parasite.

At least you got that right. Persons are a subclass of human. That would in honest company require human rights to apply to persons, if human rights are to be, what they are said to be.
 
At least you got that right. Persons are a subclass of human.
A STUPIDLY PREJUDICED LIE. PLUS, IT IS IS PERSONS THAT HAVE RIGHTS, NOT HUMANS. When will you offer the slightest bit of a valid rationale that human entities should have rights just because they are human?

That would in honest company require human rights to apply
TO NON-HUMAN PERSONS??? You know, like dolphins. Or perhaps Koko the Gorilla? Or maybe Chantek the Orangutan? And what about intelligent extraterrestrial aliens we haven't met yet? Do you think describing them in terms of human characteristics will be something they will approve-of? You can blather about the Stupidly Prejudiced Master Race Idiocy of "human rights" endlessly, and I will still remind you that the U.S. Constitution-plus-Amendments is about person rights, not human rights. And there is nothing you can do which will ever cause the phrase "human rights" to sound ethically superior to the phrase "person rights" --especially when not even you would grant rights to the human entities linked in my first paragraph of this msg.
 
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AND YET IS IS PERSONS THAT HAVE RIGHTS, NOT HUMANS. When will you offer the slightest bit of a valid rationale that human entities should have rights just because they are human?


TO NON-HUMAN PERSONS??? You know, like dolphins. Or perhaps Koko the Gorilla? Or maybe Chantek the Orangutan? And what about intelligent extraterrestrial aliens we haven't met yet? Do you think describing them in terms of human characteristics will be something they will approve-of? You can blather about the Stupidly Prejudiced Master Race Idiocy of "human rights" endlessly, and I will still remind you that the U.S. Constitution-plus-Amendments is about person rights, not human rights. And there is nothing you can do which will ever cause the phrase "human rights" to sound ethically superior to the phrase "person rights" --especially when not even you would grant rights to the human entities linked in my first paragraph of this msg.

Nope. You got it iffy. Human rights apply to humans and therefore to persons not vice versa.
 
Nope. You got it iffy. Human rights apply to humans and therefore to persons not vice versa.
WHICH MAKES YOUR SIDE THE ONE BLATHERING IDIOCY. Simply because the word "human" in "human rights" includes hydatiform moles and cancer and cuticle cells and more. And there is no way you or any other abortion opponent will grant those human entities rights, which makes the phrase "human rights" NOT applicable to all things human, and proves the idiocy you are blathering. While "person rights" would apply to all persons no matter how unhuman they might be. Considering the size of the Universe and the probable total population of non-human persons, preferring "person rights" to "human rights" means a vastly greater number of entities would have rights, than what your Stupidly Prejudices Master Race Idiocy would allow.
 
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The only ones, where force would be involved are the cases of rape. In the other ones, the girl made her decisions and then squeaks "force".

And how would you make her remain pregnant without force? No more pseudo-intellectual bobbing and weaving, tell us how it's not force to make her do something against her will.

And how, such force could possibly be ethical? Direct answers, please. Feel free to demonstrate that you place the life of the unborn above that of women.

If you believe the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women.
 
Nope. You got it iffy. Human rights apply to humans and therefore to persons not vice versa.

What codified/statutory human rights do you believe exists?
 
The only ones, where force would be involved are the cases of rape. In the other ones, the girl made her decisions and then squeaks "force".

Oh, btw, why is it ok to kill the unborn in cases of rape?

Please explain this in direct terms as an indication that you understand the depth of the subject.

And remember, if it's ok to kill the unborn in cases of rape, it's hard to think of any other reason it's NOT ok to do so due to a woman's choice, except to punish her for behavior you dont approve of.
 
Not the American Constitution apparently, not when it comes to women.

Hypothetically speaking, if there was (is) a Constitutional language, which includes all stages of human life having common or equal rights, there would have to be a language that clearly and concisely adds a “right to life” clause.

It is impossible for either constructs to exist in our Constitution, or even to be legislated, without imposing a number of serious conflicting judicial issues related to reproduction, and not to mention the taking away and giving Constitutional rights every time a conception occurred. The last point alone is reason enough for women to go underground to maintain any control over their reproductive roles.
 
Nope. You got it iffy. Human rights apply to humans and therefore to persons not vice versa.

How can you apply human rights to say aliens when they are not humans?
 
How can you apply human rights to say aliens when they are not humans?

There seems to be a literature on just that question. It started with a focus on animals and branched to the SF community. Recently there is a discussion about the rights of AI.

But in the above case the meta classification is not intelligence, feeling etc. It is humanity of which person is a subgroup. If you grant humans a fundamental right, say to life, it seems quaint to argue that you may kill another subgroup of humans, because they do not belong to the subgroup person that you have arbitrarily defined by law. You could as easily define slaves as not belonging to the subgroup person. Now, that would not be nice. Do you think?
 
There seems to be a literature on just that question. It started with a focus on animals and branched to the SF community. Recently there is a discussion about the rights of AI.
LIKELY RELATED TO A DEFINITION OF "HUMAN" THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HUMAN BIOLOGY.

Example: "human: adjective -- relating to or characteristic of people or human beings"

NOTE the phrase "human beings" is used as a synonym for "people", even though we all know that entities don't have to have the slightest bit of biological human-ness to qualify as people (True Artificial and/or extratraterrestrial alien intelligences, for example). That definition gives rise to other related words like "humane" or even "humanity" (as famously used when the Hindenberg burned/crashed) --but neither one needs to have anything to do with human biology.

But in the above case the meta classification is not intelligence, feeling etc. It is humanity of which person is a subgroup.
AND AGAIN, NOT ASSOCIATED WITH HUMAN BIOLOGY. Only the idiocy of blathering abortion opponents wants folks to conflate definitions, putting human biology in places where it does not belong.

If you grant humans a fundamental right, say to life,
THEN YOU ARE GUILTY OF IDIOTICALLY CONFLATING DEFINITIONS. Especially when you know full well that there are plenty of human entities that neither you nor anyone else will consider granting right-to-life, such as hydatidiform moles, cancer cells, and cuticle cells.

it seems quaint to argue that you may kill another subgroup of humans,
IT IS NOT "QUAINT" --it is purest idiocy. Because not even abortion opponents are stupid enough to claim: "Oh! Cancer cells are human entities! They deserve right-to-life! All research into killing them must be banned!"

because they do not belong to the subgroup person that you have arbitrarily defined by law.
YET THE CONCEPT OF "PERSON" IS NOT SO ARBITRARY. It can be as simple as any entity that meets these three conditions:
1. It is able to understand the concept of "rights".
2. It is able to claim rights for self.
3. It is able to accept and respect claims of equivalent rights made by others for themselves.

You could as easily define slaves as not belonging to the subgroup person.
SEE YOUR NEAREST ROBOT --of today's technological level, that is. Future robots, of course, are likely to be sophisticated enough to qualify as persons per the description above.

Now, that would not be nice. Do you think?
WHAT'S WORSE IS THE IDIOCY OF CONFLATING DEFINITIONS. The Stupidly Prejudiced Master Race Idiocy that you blather will in no sense allow you to grant rights to non-humans, simply because you fundamentally base your idiocy on human biology.
 
LIKELY RELATED TO A DEFINITION OF "HUMAN" THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HUMAN BIOLOGY.

Example: "human: adjective -- relating to or characteristic of people or human beings"

NOTE the phrase "human beings" is used as a synonym for "people", even though we all know that entities don't have to have the slightest bit of biological human-ness to qualify as people (True Artificial and/or extratraterrestrial alien intelligences, for example). That definition gives rise to other related words like "humane" or even "humanity" (as famously used when the Hindenberg burned/crashed) --but neither one needs to have anything to do with human biology.


AND AGAIN, NOT ASSOCIATED WITH HUMAN BIOLOGY. Only the idiocy of blathering abortion opponents wants folks to conflate definitions, putting human biology in places where it does not belong.


THEN YOU ARE GUILTY OF IDIOTICALLY CONFLATING DEFINITIONS. Especially when you know full well that there are plenty of human entities that neither you nor anyone else will consider granting right-to-life, such as hydatidiform moles, cancer cells, and cuticle cells.


IT IS NOT "QUAINT" --it is purest idiocy. Because not even abortion opponents are stupid enough to claim: "Oh! Cancer cells are human entities! They deserve right-to-life! All research into killing them must be banned!"


YET THE CONCEPT OF "PERSON" IS NOT SO ARBITRARY. It can be as simple as any entity that meets these three conditions:
1. It is able to understand the concept of "rights".
2. It is able to claim rights for self.
3. It is able to accept and respect claims of equivalent rights made by others for themselves.


SEE YOUR NEAREST ROBOT --of today's technological level, that is. Future robots, of course, are likely to be sophisticated enough to qualify as persons per the description above.


WHAT'S WORSE IS THE IDIOCY OF CONFLATING DEFINITIONS. The Stupidly Prejudiced Master Race Idiocy that you blather will in no sense allow you to grant rights to non-humans, simply because you fundamentally base your idiocy on human biology.

That's a sad charade and doesn't address the underlying issue with any more convincing an argument than "I believe human has nothing to do with biology. Oh well.
 
That's a sad charade
BRAGGING ABOUT YOURSELF, AGAIN? Did you ever read "The Naked Ape", by Desmond Morris, to see just how many behaviors called "human" are performed by other species?

and doesn't address the underlying issue
A STUPID LIE --since the underlying issue is the definition-conflation of abortion opponents, caused by Stupidly Prejudiced Master Race Idiocy.

with any more convincing an argument than "I believe human has nothing to do with biology.
LYING ABOUT WHAT I WROTE GETS YOU NOWHERE. I was talking about a particular definition of "human", not all definitions of "human".

FURTHERMORE, FACTS ARE FACTS. Belief has nothing to do with the validity of facts, regarding numerous species exhibiting various behaviors called "human". Fact-Denial, though --that's something abortion opponents are experts at.

IS THAT YOUR LATEST WAY OF SAYING YOU REFUSE TO LEARN FACTS? Tsk, tsk!
 
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