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An example of what happens when you make abortions hard to get.

AtlantaAdonis

AtlantaAdonis

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Arrest warrant: Mother put children in oven, turned it on | 11alive.com

Completely disgusting. It's really easy to be judgemental towards this woman but she was most likely feeling completely overwhelmed and unable to take care of her children. Now we can either get rid of these kids when they're a group of cells that can't feel pain or we can get more incidents like this.
 
AtlantaAdonis said:
Arrest warrant: Mother put children in oven, turned it on | 11alive.com

Completely disgusting. It's really easy to be judgemental towards this woman but she was most likely feeling completely overwhelmed and unable to take care of her children. Now we can either get rid of these kids when they're a group of cells that can't feel pain or we can get more incidents like this.
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This is not an abortion issue.

I have to wonder if she had existing mental health issues.
 
So it's abortion on demand or the oven? Really.... That is just Bat *hit crazy.
 
Initially from the title, I thought this might be a case related to post-partum depression.

But it's not. It seems to be about a low-life POS <word that I am not allowed to post> that wanted to get back at her baby daddy.
 
AtlantaAdonis said:
Arrest warrant: Mother put children in oven, turned it on | 11alive.com

Completely disgusting. It's really easy to be judgemental towards this woman but she was most likely feeling completely overwhelmed and unable to take care of her children. Now we can either get rid of these kids when they're a group of cells that can't feel pain or we can get more incidents like this.
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Overwhelmed and unable to take care of her children does not = bake the kids in the oven.
 
AtlantaAdonis said:
Arrest warrant: Mother put children in oven, turned it on | 11alive.com

Completely disgusting. It's really easy to be judgemental towards this woman but she was most likely feeling completely overwhelmed and unable to take care of her children. Now we can either get rid of these kids when they're a group of cells that can't feel pain or we can get more incidents like this.
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Are you saying making abortions illegal won't stop women from killing their children?
 
Is it bad that a small, dark part of me wants to make really crass German jokes?
 
AtlantaAdonis said:
Arrest warrant: Mother put children in oven, turned it on | 11alive.com

Completely disgusting. It's really easy to be judgemental towards this woman but she was most likely feeling completely overwhelmed and unable to take care of her children. Now we can either get rid of these kids when they're a group of cells that can't feel pain or we can get more incidents like this.
Click to expand...

What a stupid abortion argument to make.

Good honest normal people can "switch off" in a heartbeat depending on their circumstances.
 
year2late said:
This is not an abortion issue.

I have to wonder if she had existing mental health issues.
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Within quite functional ethical systems it would be little to a merely mild difference in the qualities of those deeds.
 
AtlantaAdonis said:
Arrest warrant: Mother put children in oven, turned it on | 11alive.com

Completely disgusting. It's really easy to be judgemental towards this woman but she was most likely feeling completely overwhelmed and unable to take care of her children. Now we can either get rid of these kids when they're a group of cells that can't feel pain or we can get more incidents like this.
Click to expand...

This is one of the most vile and disgusting things you've ever posted. Is your usual shtick not getting enough attention?
 
joG said:
Within quite functional ethical systems it would be little to a merely mild difference in the qualities of those deeds.
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To those with a grave misunderstanding of biology...and ethics...sure. Every society has its ethically unfit.

The coherent at least, can see the vast difference.
 
joG said:
Within quite functional ethical systems it would be little to a merely mild difference in the qualities of those deeds.
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Bull crap.

One is a born person, the other is not.

Since most abortions occur extremely early in pregnancy,,,there is a massive difference.

But thanks for the troll bait,
 
AtlantaAdonis said:
Arrest warrant: Mother put children in oven, turned it on | 11alive.com

Completely disgusting. It's really easy to be judgemental towards this woman but she was most likely feeling completely overwhelmed and unable to take care of her children. Now we can either get rid of these kids when they're a group of cells that can't feel pain or we can get more incidents like this.
Click to expand...

I don't see that this has anything to do with abortion. There is no indication that she didn't want the children prior to this day. If she was feeling overwhelmed, she could have called for help, even if she put them in foster care.
 
AtlantaAdonis said:
Arrest warrant: Mother put children in oven, turned it on | 11alive.com

Completely disgusting. It's really easy to be judgemental towards this woman but she was most likely feeling completely overwhelmed and unable to take care of her children. Now we can either get rid of these kids when they're a group of cells that can't feel pain or we can get more incidents like this.
Click to expand...

I agree, let's get rid of them when they're still just cells. You'll fit more in the oven that way.
 
APB212 said:
I agree, let's get rid of them when they're still just cells. You'll fit more in the oven that way.
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Abortion and killing of born children have absolutely nothing in common. From one perspective, pregnancy and childbirth are nothing but an extension of the sex act, more intimate, deeper penetrations of the woman's body by the man which many women want to say no to, just as others say no to vaginal penetration without a condom or, for that matter, vaginal penetration at all.

The embryo puts the man's chromosomes into the woman's bloodstream by leaking them across the placenta, along with its own cells, which have a different genetic code than the woman's. Does anyone born or unborn have the right to leak such things into someone else's bloodstream without prior permission?

The embryo that implants without prior permission is committing physical assault on the woman, and when it implants in a sex organ, as it usually does, that assault is arguably rape. The embryo is not guilty in exactly the same way that a fully adult male rapist is not guilty of the rape he is committing when he is an escapee from an asylum for the incurably insane without legal sanity - that does not nullify the right of the woman or a third party to use lethal force if needed to stop the act that is rape even though he can't be held guilty.

In contrast, those born children were already detached from the woman's body. She could have gotten rid of them just by standing in the street and making a ruckus until people carted her away for government psychological care. No chemical or surgical means were needed because they were just external entities like all other actual persons.
 
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AtlantaAdonis said:
Arrest warrant: Mother put children in oven, turned it on | 11alive.com

Completely disgusting. It's really easy to be judgemental towards this woman but she was most likely feeling completely overwhelmed and unable to take care of her children. Now we can either get rid of these kids when they're a group of cells that can't feel pain or we can get more incidents like this.
Click to expand...

You are so off the mark it's not even funny.

Lots of people who wanted children are abusive or insane.

Lots of people who didn't want children but wound up having them are perfectly good parents.

We do not need abortion legality because women are terrible monsters who will murder their children if they don't get one, as you imply here. We need abortion legality because women are people, as likely to be sane and kind as their male counterparts, who deserve human rights and a recognition of their ability to make their own choices.

Step off with the horrible and insulting bull****.
 
choiceone said:
Abortion and killing of born children have absolutely nothing in common. From one perspective, pregnancy and childbirth are nothing but an extension of the sex act, more intimate, deeper penetrations of the woman's body by the man which many women want to say no to, just as others say no to vaginal penetration without a condom or, for that matter, vaginal penetration at all.

The embryo puts the man's chromosomes into the woman's bloodstream by leaking them across the placenta, along with its own cells, which have a different genetic code than the woman's. Does anyone born or unborn have the right to leak such things into someone else's bloodstream without prior permission?

The embryo that implants without prior permission is committing physical assault on the woman, and when it implants in a sex organ, as it usually does, that assault is arguably rape. The embryo is not guilty in exactly the same way that a fully adult male rapist is not guilty of the rape he is committing when he is an escapee from an asylum for the incurably insane without legal sanity - that does not nullify the right of the woman or a third party to use lethal force if needed to stop the act that is rape even though he can't be held guilty.

In contrast, those born children were already detached from the woman's body. She could have gotten rid of them just by standing in the street and making a ruckus until people carted her away for government psychological care. No chemical or surgical means were needed because they were just external entities like all other actual persons.
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And people wonder why third-wave feminism isn't taken seriously.
 
choiceone said:
Abortion and killing of born children have absolutely nothing in common.
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A glaringly obvious commonality is that in both cases a life is being terminated... The age or location of the victim doesn't change that fact that they are still being murdered by someone.
 
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gfm7175 said:
A glaringly obvious commonality is that in both cases a life is being terminated... The age or location of the victim doesn't change that fact that they are still being murdered by someone.
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Incorrect. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the ILLEGAL killing of a person by a person. 1. the zef isn't a person and even if it was, 2. legal abortion CANNOT be murder.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Incorrect. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the ILLEGAL killing of a person by a person. 1. the zef isn't a person and even if it was, 2. legal abortion CANNOT be murder.
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I understand the definition of murder, and that, as determined by society, abortion technically isn't murder.

But my problem with that is that if society immediately deems abortion to be illegal, would you then immediately change your view on the topic and say that abortion is now murder when just a moment ago, it wasn't?

Objective morals would not exist without God creating them. If that's not the case, then all morals would be subjectively rooted and change with the political winds, such as this case where society has deemed abortions to be legal and morally acceptable. I root my morals in the objective nature of God, so no matter what society deems, abortion will always be murder in my mind. I don't abide by society's morals if they directly contradict with God's objective morals.

To address each of your points directly...

1. He/she is a person from the time that he/she is conceived. From conception, the "lump of cells" is life, and is changing appearance from a "lump of cells" into the baby that we see when he/she is born. In the same way, the baby changes appearance into a young adult, and into an older adult, and etc. Our appearance changes during our whole lives, from the very moment of conception. I don't understand why it is acceptable to kill a person a day or a week after conception, but not okay to kill a person who is a day or a week after birth. I don't understand why it is okay to murder someone at a certain age, but not at another age...

2. But illegal abortion IS murder, so which one is it? Is aborting a baby murder or is it not? And what is your objective ground for that belief? Or is it a subjective belief for you?
 
gfm7175 said:
1. He/she is a person from the time that he/she is conceived.
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Incorrect. Personhood is bestowed upon live birth.


2. But illegal abortion IS murder, so which one is it? Is aborting a baby murder or is it not? And what is your objective ground for that belief? Or is it a subjective belief for you?
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Illegal abortion is murder only if it is codified as such in law. That has never happened in my country.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Incorrect. Personhood is bestowed upon live birth.
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Bestowed by who? Who is this objective (not subjective) arbiter that has decided for every single person who was, is, and is to be born that personhood begins at live birth?

And you're saying that you need to see the child come out of the womb before you consider the child to be a person? At 8 months pregnant, you don't consider the child inside the womb to be a person?


Scrabaholic said:
Illegal abortion is murder only if it is codified as such in law. That has never happened in my country.
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Which again leads to my question that you conveniently didn't answer... If abortion instantly became illegal, would you then instantly change your view on the topic and consider abortion to be murder, even though a moment ago it wasn't murder?

Also, do you form your worldview around every single Canadian law that gets passed? You have no objective personal beliefs which differ from Canadian law? Seems rather odd to me...

Obviously you and I have opposing worldviews and morals.
 
gfm7175 said:
Bestowed by who? Who is this objective (not subjective) arbiter that has decided for every single person who was, is, and is to be born that personhood begins at live birth?

And you're saying that you need to see the child come out of the womb before you consider the child to be a person? At 8 months pregnant, you don't consider the child inside the womb to be a person?



Which again leads to my question that you conveniently didn't answer... If abortion instantly became illegal, would you then instantly change your view on the topic and consider abortion to be murder, even though a moment ago it wasn't murder?

Also, do you form your worldview around every single Canadian law that gets passed? You have no objective personal beliefs which differ from Canadian law? Seems rather odd to me...

Obviously you and I have opposing worldviews and morals.
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Bestowed by society. If abortion was illegal it would be declared murder and I would work to change that law
 
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