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Thread: Banning abortion after 20 weeks passed by the House

  1. #481
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    Re: Banning abortion after 20 weeks passed by the House

    Quote Originally Posted by eman623 View Post
    The Constitution doesn't explicitly state the unborn are not persons so it could have gone either way.
    NEVERTHELESS, THERE IS ANOTHER FACTOR. See what the Constitution (and the 14th Amendment) have to say about the Census. Basically, every 10 years all persons must be counted (except for Indians not taxed). The Founding Fathers were right there in 1790 to specify the details of counting persons in the very first Census. You can see for yourself, here, the questions they asked, and all other formal Census questions since. Unborn humans have never been counted as persons in any Census --which constitutes a Legal Precedent far exceeding the Roe v Wade decision.

    STILL WAITING for you to support the Positive Claim that unborn humans somehow qualify (or should qualify) as persons....
    Stupidly Prejudiced Master Race Idiocy was supposedly stomped into irrelevance by WW2; insisting "human=person" fails to Be Prepared for any future with non-human persons in it. So: Define "person" to accurately distinguish one, regardless of how exists, from a mere animal, universally. Why should Stupid Prejudice let our unborn qualify?

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    Re: Banning abortion after 20 weeks passed by the House

    Quote Originally Posted by eman623 View Post
    Which is find with me. As I've noted before, I'd draw the line at personhood, which is an equally murky definition with no basis in the Constitution. Probably works out to the same thing more or less.
    "So, if only a person can be murdered, when does the fetus attain personhood? When its face becomes distinctly human, near the end of the first trimester? When the fetus becomes responsive to stimuli--again, at the end of the first trimester? When it becomes active enough to be felt as quickening, typically in the middle of the second trimester? When the lungs have reached a stage of development sufficient that the fetus might, just conceivably, be able to breathe on its own in the outside air?

    The trouble with these particular developmental milestones is not just that they're arbitrary. More troubling is the fact that none of them involves uniquely human characteristics--apart from the superficial matter of facial appearance. All animals respond to stimuli and move of their own volition. Large numbers are able to breathe. But that doesn't stop us from slaughtering them by the billions. Reflexes and motion are not what make us human.

    Other animals have advantages over us--in speed, strength, endurance, climbing or burrowing skills, camouflage, sight or smell or hearing, mastery of the air or water. Our one great advantage, the secret of our success, is thought--characteristically human thought. We are able to think things through, imagine events yet to occur, figure things out. That's how we invented agriculture and civilization. Thought is our blessing and our curse, and it makes us who we are.

    Thinking occurs, of course, in the brain--principally in the top layers of the convoluted "gray matter" called the cerebral cortex. The roughly 100 billion neurons in the brain constitute the material basis of thought. The neurons are connected to each other, and their linkups play a major role in what we experience as thinking. But large-scale linking up of neurons doesn't begin until the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy--the sixth month.

    By placing harmless electrodes on a subject's head, scientists can measure the electrical activity produced by the network of neurons inside the skull. Different kinds of mental activity show different kinds of brain waves. But brain waves with regular patterns typical of adult human brains do not appear in the fetus until about the 30th week of pregnancy--near the beginning of the third trimester. Fetuses younger than this--however alive and active they may be--lack the necessary brain architecture. They cannot yet think.

    Acquiescing in the killing of any living creature, especially one that might later become a baby, is troublesome and painful. But we've rejected the extremes of "always" and "never," and this puts us--like it or not--on the slippery slope. If we are forced to choose a developmental criterion, then this is where we draw the line: when the beginning of characteristically human thinking becomes barely possible.

    It is, in fact, a very conservative definition: Regular brain waves are rarely found in fetuses. More research would help… If we wanted to make the criterion still more stringent, to allow for occasional precocious fetal brain development, we might draw the line at six months. This, it so happens, is where the Supreme Court drew it in 1973--although for completely different reasons. "

    Science and abortion
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  3. #483
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    Re: Banning abortion after 20 weeks passed by the House

    Quote Originally Posted by eman623 View Post
    Scott Peterson was tried and convicted of double homicide. Not one homicide and one feticide.
    From the Keeler vs Superior Court Case.



    In this proceeding for writ of prohibition we are called upon to decide whether an unborn but viable fetus is a "human being" within the meaning of the California statute defining murder (Pen. Code, 187). We conclude that the Legislature did not intend such a meaning, and that for us to construe the statute to the contrary and apply it to this petitioner would exceed our judicial power and deny petitioner due process of law.
    https://law.justia.com/cases/califor.../3d/2/619.html
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

  4. #484
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    Re: Banning abortion after 20 weeks passed by the House

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    CHERRY-PICKED DATA IS OFTEN INADEQUATE. It is well-documented how various ordinary animals have more brain activity and brain-power than newborn humans (and thus also have more than any less-developed unborn human). Logically, anyone insisting that unborn humans qualify as persons because of brain-activity should be even-more-willing to insist that various ordinary animals also be declared persons. However, since persons tend to claim they are superior to ordinary animals, it even-more-logically follows that humans can, per the scientific data, only qualify as persons when their brainpower exceeds that of ordinary animals. Here is some data about that.

    I NOW NOTE that the Law about assigning personhood at birth is rather arbitrary, and the original form of that Law was written long before there was any scientific data at all about personhood-in-general. Therefore anyone talking about personhood needs to make a distinction between the available scientific data and what the Law specifies (never confuse/conflate the two!). As it happens, it is known that some folks want the Law to be changed so that it becomes synchronized with the scientific data (thus legalizing infanticide) --and of course others want the Law to be made even-more-out-of-sync with the scientific data (thus banning abortion), like Fact-Denying Idiots. Due to such things as the existence and widespread acceptance of "grandfather clauses", I personally am quite fine with leaving the Law right where it is (at least regarding human persons).
    Stupidly Prejudiced Master Race Idiocy was supposedly stomped into irrelevance by WW2; insisting "human=person" fails to Be Prepared for any future with non-human persons in it. So: Define "person" to accurately distinguish one, regardless of how exists, from a mere animal, universally. Why should Stupid Prejudice let our unborn qualify?

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    Re: Banning abortion after 20 weeks passed by the House

    Quote Originally Posted by eman623 View Post
    Scott Peterson was tried and convicted of double homicide. Not one homicide and one feticide.
    There are 2 counts because of California's fetal homicide statute, any fetus -- meaning eight weeks of development and onward -- is considered an equal victim.

    https://www.cnn.com/2013/10/15/us/sc...cts/index.html
    THe unborn was considered a victim, not a person. And CA was able to use judicial discretion...even called 'special circumstances...for that charge.

    At no time was the unborn considered a person nor having any rights.

    And still no answers to this?

    What legal basis would you offer SCOTUS to recognize rights for the unborn and thus reduce women back to 2nd class citizens? And how would you justify that treatment of women, violating our rights in order to give the exact same things: self-determination and a future to the unborn instead?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Wan View Post
    Point to the tax codes, of any kind, that say the actual passage:"abortion is not murder".
    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Banning abortion after 20 weeks passed by the House

    Quote Originally Posted by eman623 View Post
    The law is mixed. There have been cases where pregnant women got off driving alone in a carpool lane.
    Sooo....off on a tangent then?

    We have pretty much given you plenty of proof that the unborn are not persons and never considered persons legally. You have offered an "opinion" that you disagree. You have not supported that opinion with any workable or practical legal solutions that could be considered under the Constitution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wan View Post
    Point to the tax codes, of any kind, that say the actual passage:"abortion is not murder".
    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Banning abortion after 20 weeks passed by the House

    Quote Originally Posted by eman623 View Post
    Asked and answered, counselor.
    Not in my Court it hasn't...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I'm sexist and hypocritical, lol:

  8. #488
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    Re: Banning abortion after 20 weeks passed by the House

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    From the Keeler vs Superior Court Case.



    https://law.justia.com/cases/califor.../3d/2/619.html
    And yet Scott was convicted of not 1 but 2 murders.
    "You are free and that is why you are lost." - Franz Kafka

  9. #489
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    Re: Banning abortion after 20 weeks passed by the House

    Quote Originally Posted by eman623 View Post
    And yet Scott was convicted of not 1 but 2 murders.
    No. He was convicted of first degree murder for Laci and second degree fetal homicide for the unborn.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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