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40 Days for Life campaign 9-27-11-5[W:9]***

nota bene said:
The bandwagon appeal--everybody's doing it--doesn't really work for me, nor does your "what civility demands." My having an opinion contrary to yours is not uncivil. I don't really have much interest in defending my position; I don't think it requires a defense. I just occasionally like to express my position.
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The funny thing is that if you weren't born in the US, you might be on the Muslim bandwagon or the Buddhist bandwagon. I know you don't care about the part that human rights plays in national civility because nearly everything that the christian right believes in is uncivil and divisive and that's the way they like it.

And speaking of what civility requires....

I've never mentioned Jesus. Why did you bring Him into our conversation? Have you not noticed that I haven't spoken of my faith at all (and don't intend to either)?
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I mention Jesus because he represents the dominant superstition of American magical thinkers.

I can certainly agree that your life is as sacred as is mine or someone’s who is on death row. “All human life” means exactly that--all, and human worth is not on a sliding scale. Either each one of us is valuable, or none of us is. And I think that all human life is valuable—sacred because each one of us was uniquely created. And being uniquely created, sir, is a biological fact, not a religious belief.
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If you believe what you just wrote, how can you undermine the inherent value of women's lives by demanding they risk them in unwanted pregnancy? It is a contradiction. Besides, the pro-lifers are concerned about abortion, not capital punishment so if you are against state executions, you are among the minority of pro-lifers.

You're virulently anti-religion, and I get that. But you are ignoring natural law.
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I have become anti-theist because I recognize that it is a conversation stopper. When the divine or any other superstition is employed in a debate, there is nowhere else to go. Conversations with believers inevitably reach the point where the phrase "that's where faith comes in" is used and where faith comes in, rational thinking goes away.

I also realize, though, that the ability or desire to use the abstract god to explain our existence is an evolved behavior that I could never argue out of a person. The frustration of recognizing the simultaneous pathology and immutability of faith is what stokes my resentment. We were not created but the observation that we are inherently bad is an ironic accident of evolution whereby our imaginations have become the enemy of our better senses.
 
nota bene said:
Being an atheist and pro-life makes sense to me: If you think this life is it, how much more so should you treasure all human life. And size doesn't matter; I can always hope that reason will prevail. :mrgreen:
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As long as the fetus threatens the lives of women, it doesn't deserve life. If it ultimately gets to have one, it is by the grace of some woman, not an invisible cloud man. Countries where atheism is dominant are pro-choice.

But thanks for the smile; I always love it when a man tries to school me on the various outcomes of pregnancy and how "even when not fatal, can harm them for life." :doh
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Then you understand that the risk of death and or injury are inherent in pregnancy? If so, how can you reconcile that fact with your prayer to end elective abortion? It's wrong.

No, D_NATURED, people standing in front of a clinic and praying are not enslaving women.
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No, they announce their intentions in prayer and then actually enslave women at the voting booth...like I already said.

Thank goodness each one of us has a vote. I’m glad you have yours and feel sorry for you that you begrudge me mine. I believe in democracy. I hope very much for more and more of my fellow citizens to grow to respect all human life because this would change the world. You wish to suppress my vote.
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To vote in faith is to rule by accident. If you respect life, spend your time caring for the already living and not trying to force new lives into existence at the expense of others.

I'm not a fanatic. I don't even need to call people with whose opinions I disagree "morons," "imbeciles," or other any of the other epithets and insults you yourself choose to use.
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Fanatics do their dirty work with a big **** eatin' grin on their faces. Have you ever seen a video of Osama Bin Laden, threatening the west? He can't stop smiling. I'm guessing he was against swearing too and, no doubt, opposed abortion. The greatest harms are too often done by people who believe their intentions are good. The worst way to determine the quality of your intentions is to measure them against dogma. In that case, you will fail more often than not, just like Osama did.

Thank you, though, for being willing to discuss this with me. That , more than anything you've written, gives me hope that we can come to agree on something. I apologize for insulting you but not those like you. I mean that sincerely.
 
D_NATURED said:
Is that really what you imagine happens when the pro-life mob descends upon those desperate young women? Again, your version of reality is askew. What they really do is not silently pray or silently protest. They abuse and insult and defame women and that's why there are volunteer escorts who accompany the women to and from the clinic.

What a rich imagination you have that not only proclaims fetuses to be actualized humans but, more astonishingly, imagines pro-life abortion protesters to be silent and prayerful. You are writing your posts on the planet Earth, right? Just checking.
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I stood on a sidewalk almost every Saturday morning in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic for 15 years. Sometimes I was alone; sometimes there were 5-10 others. I never spoke. I only very occasionally heard others speak.

So I am speaking here of my own extensive and first-hand experience participating in silent, prayerful protest. The 40 Days for Life org is an outgrowth of a group that became known nationally as a model for silent, respectful, prayerful protest. I have never seen a "mob" descend on a desperate young woman, and unlike you, I don't need to use my imagination because I was actually been there for weeks and years.

So in how many prayer vigils in front of an abortion clinic have you participated? Have you ever...even one time?
 
D_NATURED said:
Then you understand that the risk of death and or injury are inherent in pregnancy? If so, how can you reconcile that fact with your prayer to end elective abortion? It's wrong.
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The key word is "elective."

D_NATURED said:
To vote in faith is to rule by accident. If you respect life, spend your time caring for the already living and not trying to force new lives into existence at the expense of others.
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And look who's trying to tell another how to live her life....

D_NATURED said:
Thank you, though, for being willing to discuss this with me. That , more than anything you've written, gives me hope that we can come to agree on something. I apologize for insulting you but not those like you. I mean that sincerely.
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I ask you only to treat me and my point of view with the respect that I have given yours. In the course of my lifetime and for reasons of my own, I've done a 180 on the abortion issue. I know what the Pill meant for women, and I lived Roe v Wade. I've experienced the risks of pregnancy myself, some of them grave.

I rarely come into the Abortion forum anymore because my sense is that those who are pro-life are pretty much "not allowed." If you approach a discourse, whatever the topic, with the view that those who disagree with you are morons and imbeciles and fanatics, there isn't going to be a productive conversation.
 
nota bene said:
Being an atheist and pro-life makes sense to me: If you think this life is it, how much more so should you treasure all human life.
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When millions upon millions of people have been killed over the ages in the name of God, your assertion becomes meaningless. Human life is not anymore special than any other life. It is us humans, because we are superior to all other life by our own decision, that adds that value, but those who also possess rational thinking and accept the realities of life can distinguish between mere existence and significance of life. That is what gave us "women and children first" in emergencies, that is what allows us to defend ourselves and the societies we live in and guarantees our freedom.

I believe in democracy.
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And possibly in the travesty of imposing your will on others through it.

I'm not a fanatic.
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Standing in front of a clinic for 15 years would indicate differently.

I don't even need to call people with whose opinions I disagree "morons," "imbeciles," or other any of the other epithets and insults you yourself choose to use.
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But so often the descriptions ARE apt and reflect the truth. I'd rather be called something to my face than be stabbed in the back. It is just easier to defend.
 
D_NATURED said:
Is that really what you imagine happens when the pro-life mob descends upon those desperate young women? Again, your version of reality is askew. What they really do is not silently pray or silently protest. They abuse and insult and defame women and that's why there are volunteer escorts who accompany the women to and from the clinic.
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Yes, some protesters do that. Not all, though. The ones in the city I live near that protest a couple times a year at the hospital don't do that.
 
nota bene said:
I stood on a sidewalk almost every Saturday morning in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic for 15 years. Sometimes I was alone; sometimes there were 5-10 others. I never spoke. I only very occasionally heard others speak.
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Well, the experience I had was very different than you describe. Again, it is an interesting bit of denial to imagine that the faithful who are capable of silently protesting are not a very small minority upon a planet where faith demands so much bloodshed. Who do you think those volunteers are protecting the women from? Not imaginary fanatics, I assure you.

But, you admit you vote like the fanatics, unapologetically, and that's the real harm. You have authorized your opinion with or are reward by faith in the phony fetophilia of the "god's little angels" paradigm and I realize there is nothing I could say to sway you. Women die in childbirth must be your default assumption rather than women own themselves. I'm perplexed and discouraged by you, nota bene.

So I am speaking here of my own extensive and first-hand experience participating in silent, prayerful protest. The 40 Days for Life org is an outgrowth of a group that became known nationally as a model for silent, respectful, prayerful protest. I have never seen a "mob" descend on a desperate young woman, and unlike you, I don't need to use my imagination because I was actually been there for weeks and years.
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You're right, the mob didn't descend, they had to stay behind a line. What they did is lay in wait like jackals. If you wasted fifteen years praying for something that should never ever happen, well maybe god's not on your side. Furthermore, if you've voted repeatedly for candidates who legally impose death and harm upon women, I DON'T respect your opinion or, more importantly, your morality. I'm ashamed to have to explain what you should already know.

So in how many prayer vigils in front of an abortion clinic have you participated?
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No prayer vigils, I was on the other side.

Have you ever...even one time?
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Nope, I'd rather march with NAZIs than the pro-lifers. At least the NAZIs acknowledge their sickness, they don't shroud their tyranny in fake piety or take their human duty and moral responsibility to think and toss it on the magical winds of faith, they just hate openly. What you are doing is silent murder. Punish the whores is what echoes in their graves.

God dammit step back from your moral microscope and see the big picture. God will forgive you.
 
D_NATURED said:
Nope, I'd rather march with NAZIs than the pro-lifers. At least the NAZIs acknowledge their sickness, they don't shroud their tyranny in fake piety or take their human duty and moral responsibility to think and toss it on the magical winds of faith, they just hate openly. What you are doing is silent murder. Punish the whores is what echoes in their graves.

God dammit step back from your moral microscope and see the big picture. God will forgive you.
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Now you’re simply ranting and being abusive, so we’re done here. But I don’t regard the 15 years as wasted. That PP clinic no longer exists.:mrgreen:
 
Re: 40 Days for Life campaign 9-27-11-5

Dragonfly said:
What if there are more people praying to keep abortion legal, than praying to make it illegal?
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Very well could be.

The RCRC is also actively and peacefully trying to keep contraception and Roe v Wade the law of the land. We believe that access to contraception and elective abortion before viability is a part of our religious liberty here in the US.

Many Jewish leaders and Mainline Protestant religious leaders had a meeting in 1973 , shortly after Roe v Wade passed to form a Colation to keep elective abortion and prevent the Catholics and others from overturning Roe v Wade.

From the following 2015 article :

The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice is a grassroots organization that is “Pro-Faith. Pro-Family. Pro-Choice.” The RCRC’s stated mission is “to be the leading religious voice for reproductive justice in the country.”

The RCRC was established in 1973 by Jewish and Protestant leaders in reaction to the Roman Catholic Church’s opposition to the Roe v. Wade decision. The United Methodist Church is the primary founding member, maintaining its support for the organization throughout its history.
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nota bene said:
Now you’re simply ranting and being abusive, so we’re done here. But I don’t regard the 15 years as wasted. That PP clinic no longer exists.:mrgreen:
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I was not abusive, I was brutally honest. If you can't handle it, I'm not surprised. In their defense of the unborn, the faithful have declared themselves to be the great moral army of god, vanquishing liberal baby killers, and no amount of contradictory evidence can satisfy them that they are wrong. Now, you brag that your prayers have manifest as the closing doors of an affordable healthcare option for women. You must be very proud.

I hope you realize how classist your agenda is. When you prayed a Planned Parenthood out of existence, you only harmed poor women. Those with resources can still travel to where abortions are available or hire a private physician to perform the procedure. Congratulations.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Yes, some protesters do that. Not all, though. The ones in the city I live near that protest a couple times a year at the hospital don't do that.
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From the perspective of the women, the "some" who do that are merely spokespersons for the larger crowd with with they are affiliated. It is naive to think they aren't received that way. Regardless of what is said at any given location, the idea of having a crowd of morons praying for you to be a prisoner of your reproductive system and judging you for not wanting to be one is both sad and telling of the level of rudeness that religion authorizes.
 
D_NATURED said:
I was not abusive, I was brutally honest. If you can't handle it, I'm not surprised. In their defense of the unborn, the faithful have declared themselves to be the great moral army of god, vanquishing liberal baby killers, and no amount of contradictory evidence can satisfy them that they are wrong. Now, you brag that your prayers have manifest as the closing doors of an affordable healthcare option for women. You must be very proud.

I hope you realize how classist your agenda is. When you prayed a Planned Parenthood out of existence, you only harmed poor women. Those with resources can still travel to where abortions are available or hire a private physician to perform the procedure. Congratulations.
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You have no idea of who the clients of this particular PP clinic were and nothing of the demographics of my community. I do; I live here. And I am thrilled by the repurposing of this clinic.

There are very fine hospitals here should there be a medical need for an abortion. But I suppose it's terribly inconvenient to have to travel. If you don't have a car or even a single friend with wheels, you might have to ride a bus. It won't kill you, only the life you wish to extinguish.
 
nota bene said:
You have no idea of who the clients of this particular PP clinic were and nothing of the demographics of my community. I do; I live here. And I am thrilled by the repurposing of this clinic.

There are very fine hospitals here should there be a medical need for an abortion. But I suppose it's terribly inconvenient to have to travel. If you don't have a car or even a single friend with wheels, you might have to ride a bus. It won't kill you, only the life you wish to extinguish.
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All I hear from you is more ways of saying you don't give a ****. Somewhere along the way you decided it was better to be apathetic to other women's lives. I'm sure that whatever god rewards the ironically oblivious is smiling down upon your band of holy busibodies. What a great sacrifice to faith is your human compassion but what a loss to everyone else.
 
nota bene said:
Right...because creating a thread about the upcoming 40 Days for Life Campaign is exactly like standing publicly in front of an abortion clinic and silently and prayerfully protesting. :roll:
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From the IRCRC

UNACKNOWLEDGED SUFFERING

the spiritual abuse of the woman seeking abortion committed by unwanted “sidewalk counseling” of Christian extremists
the bodily violation, the emotional violation, the risk and burden of forcing a woman to bear a child against her will
the grief of the woman forced by circumstances into abortion because she has insufficient resources to sustain and nurture a child
unmet needs of existing children whose mother is unable to secure the resources for the abortion she desperately needs
exceedingly high rate of unintended pregnancy, abortion, unwanted children and childhood poverty due to lack of public support for contraception and health care
the failure to affirm the blessing of abortion in pre-empting maternal and newborn suffering and mortality in cases of severe congenital abnormality and co-existing disease
the tragedy that a woman who seeks abortion will risk her life to get it when abortion is not safe, legal, affordable, and accessible
minimization of the vulnerability of the pregnant woman and newborn by people who regard the fetus with idolatry
the invalidation of the moral agency of the pregnant woman in the assertion that every fetus must be brought to life, regardless of the resources to sustain it and the well-being of the pregnant woman and her family
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COMPASSION | IRCRC
 
minnie616 said:
From the IRCRC



COMPASSION | IRCRC
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I think we're at a point where the pro-life contingent has been pretty clear that they don't give a **** about the consequences of their actions, only about those of pregnant women (see whores who deserve whatever they get). Being defenders of the "innocent" entitles them to shrug off all of the demonstrably negative effects of pregnancy and of their own fanaticism.

I'm as guilty as the next person of attempting to reason with the faithful whose defense of fetuses is defined as much by what they ignore as what they don't. I have reminded them many times of the ability of pregnancy to unpredictably kill or harm women and it slides right off of them like water off of a duck's ass. They brag about praying and voting away the rights of women to their own existence and physical bodies. I was capable of engaging them civilly, when I started having these conversations a few years ago. Now, I find myself very quickly resolving myself to the futility of the fact that they will not even consider my points and, admittedly willingly, slip into a less civil exchange.

That is why Sam Harris described faith as a conversation stopper and, presumably, a violence starter. When one side of the discussion employs magic, there is nowhere to go but to violence. History shows that here, in the middle east and wherever faith steers politics, that's the case. I'm not proud of how I allow my frustration with these nincompoops to manifest as outward hostility but it sure feels better in the moment.
 
D_NATURED said:
I think we're at a point where the pro-life contingent has been pretty clear that they don't give a **** about the consequences of their actions, only about those of pregnant women (see whores who deserve whatever they get). Being defenders of the "innocent" entitles them to shrug off all of the demonstrably negative effects of pregnancy and of their own fanaticism.

I'm as guilty as the next person of attempting to reason with the faithful whose defense of fetuses is defined as much by what they ignore as what they don't. I have reminded them many times of the ability of pregnancy to unpredictably kill or harm women and it slides right off of them like water off of a duck's ass. They brag about praying and voting away the rights of women to their own existence and physical bodies. I was capable of engaging them civilly, when I started having these conversations a few years ago. Now, I find myself very quickly resolving myself to the futility of the fact that they will not even consider my points and, admittedly willingly, slip into a less civil exchange.

That is why Sam Harris described faith as a conversation stopper and, presumably, a violence starter. When one side of the discussion employs magic, there is nowhere to go but to violence. History shows that here, in the middle east and wherever faith steers politics, that's the case. I'm not proud of how I allow my frustration with these nincompoops to manifest as outward hostility but it sure feels better in the moment.
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I am among the faithful but my faith teaches me the woman is a moral agent and she can follow her own conscience if she chooses to become a parent or she wishes to become a parent again. We believe that access to birth control and legal abortions ( within the parameters of Roe v Wade ) is a part of reproductive religious liberty.

We believe in compassion for the woman and her life's reproductive choices.

There are many of faith who are pro faith , pro family, and pro choice .
 
D_NATURED said:
That is why Sam Harris described faith as a conversation stopper and, presumably, a violence starter. When one side of the discussion employs magic, there is nowhere to go but to violence.
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Wow. I can't even imagine thinking like this, much less letting anybody know that you think like this.
 
I support this if people want to do it, but my critique is the fasting part. 40 days is a long time to fast if you've never done it. Fasting can also be intensely spiritual if you stick to it. It opens up your heart and soul like nothing else, and shows you your own inner true nature. I'm not sure that I would want to dedicate a fast to the topic of abortion. So much other stuff comes up for me during fasting - like emotional baggage, my relationship with food, my relationship to life and to God - that it would almost be inappropriate to make it political.

But that's me. If a group of Christians want to get together and fast for 40 days while sort of holding each other to the primary topic, then I guess that's their choice. I just feel that it's a misuse of the fast and having done spiritual fasts a lot in the past I just can't fathom constraining the experience to something so specifically political. It almost reminds me of people who just fast to lose weight or something. It's kind of superficial.
 
Northern Light said:
I support this if people want to do it, but my critique is the fasting part. 40 days is a long time to fast if you've never done it. Fasting can also be intensely spiritual if you stick to it. It opens up your heart and soul like nothing else, and shows you your own inner true nature. I'm not sure that I would want to dedicate a fast to the topic of abortion. So much other stuff comes up for me during fasting - like emotional baggage, my relationship with food, my relationship to life and to God - that it would almost be inappropriate to make it political.

But that's me. If a group of Christians want to get together and fast for 40 days while sort of holding each other to the primary topic, then I guess that's their choice. I just feel that it's a misuse of the fast and having done spiritual fasts a lot in the past I just can't fathom constraining the experience to something so specifically political. It almost reminds me of people who just fast to lose weight or something. It's kind of superficial.
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But you're assuming that it's political. It's not and never has been for me.
 
nota bene said:
But you're assuming that it's political. It's not and never has been for me.
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of course its political you dont need to beg a god to do what you say it wants to do any way

the purpose of this is to gather people whoa are against abortion together so that they themselves can try and fight abortion in their community's

deep in your hearts you know that is the only way to effect change
 
blarg said:
of course its political you dont need to beg a god to do what you say it wants to do any way
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You’re entitled to your opinion, however mistaken you are, but you have no idea what I or anybody else needs.

blarg said:
the purpose of this is to gather people whoa are against abortion together so that they themselves can try and fight abortion in their community's
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You apparently haven’t been active in civic or political affairs. When people gather to organize, they have meetings in which they speak. “Stand and pray” is generally silent.

blarg said:
deep in your hearts you know that is the only way to effect change
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You couldn’t be more mistaken...or more presumptuous.

You do not know my heart. Don’t try to tell me what I know or have experienced or feel or believe.

And already I have seen change effected in my own community. I've seen what was once just a few people on one sidewalk in one town become a worldwide campaign. I believe in the power of prayer to change minds and hearts, and I hope the 40 Days for Life campaign that begins on the 27th will be immensely successful.

https://40daysforlife.com/browse-campaigns/
 
nota bene said:
You’re entitled to your opinion, however mistaken you are, but you have no idea what I or anybody else needs.



You apparently haven’t been active in civic or political affairs. When people gather to organize, they have meetings in which they speak. “Stand and pray” is generally silent.



You couldn’t be more mistaken...or more presumptuous.

You do not know my heart. Don’t try to tell me what I know or have experienced or feel or believe.

And already I have seen change effected in my own community. I've seen what was once just a few people on one sidewalk in one town become a worldwide campaign. I believe in the power of prayer to change minds and hearts, and I hope the 40 Days for Life campaign that begins on the 27th will be immensely successful.

https://40daysforlife.com/browse-campaigns/
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i know the only change is what you people make the gods are just an excuse
 
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