Page 96 of 96 FirstFirst ... 4686949596
Results 951 to 960 of 960

Thread: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

  1. #951
    Sage



    Join Date
    May 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    11,880

    Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. This is my attempt to interpret both sides

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    1.3 percent @ 21 weeks is NOT fully developed. And more importantly, the report fails to describe the circumstances for the 21 week plus abortions. How many were still-born, severely deformed with very small chance of surviving, or the welfare of the woman was in jeopardy?

    For an authority of any kind to make a report on late term abortions there are probably valid, legal reasons for those abortions.

    Considering the source the article might as well have come from LifeNew.com.
    Thank you for addressing gestational age.

    If 21 weeks was fully developed......why are premature infants admitted to neonatal intensive care units (35-37 weeks and below) routinely?

  2. #952
    Dorset Patriot
    Wessexman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sydney, Australia(but my heart is back in Dorset.)
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    8,468

    Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Even more fundamental is defining what "person" is in a way that is universally accepted and I do not think hat there is a good chance of that.

    Again that entirely depends on the definition of person and you are not offering one.

    It is only extremism to you, but there are arguments for that position that are as valid as your not offered arguments in your earlier assertion in this post.
    You seem very defensive.

    I agree the divergence of views on personhood is itself important, as is what that means for us ethically and socially.

    I'm not sure what your second point means. Are you arguing there are good philosophical arguments for personhood beginning, say, at birth? Or do you disagree there can be good arguments for it beginning at conception or early in pregnancy? My point was very catholic - I admitted there are good philosophical arguments for mainstream pro-life and mainstream pro-choice positions.

    If you wish to formulate an argument that it is okay to abort a fetus (without some sort of extraordinary circumstances) when it is as much a person as you or I, then go ahead. It seems like an implausible position to me, and one likely to put off even mainstream pro-choicers. Such an ethical position would have to put overwhelming emphasis on personal autonomy, and have next to know role for social obligation, interpersonal bonds, and so on.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 10-13-17 at 10:32 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #953
    Dorset Patriot
    Wessexman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sydney, Australia(but my heart is back in Dorset.)
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    8,468

    Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    And you think personhood happens between conception and third trimester.

    My mainline Protestant religion teaches me that life/ensoulment begins at birth with the breath of life.
    Roe agrees that personhood begins at birth.

    Most Jewish sects and Mainline Protestant Religions also believe that spiritual life ( ensoulment/ living soul) does not occur until birth.
    They believe that life begins with the breath of life.



    In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, about the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

    “God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: 'If a man kills any human life he will be put to death' (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.”


    Roe did address this in part IX of Roe vs Wade.




    Quote from Roe part IX
    Why do you keep quoting Roe vs Wade at me? It isn't directly relevant, and I'm not even an America. SCOTUS and its rulings mean little to me.

    Can I start quoting British law to you? Here is the Abortion Act 1967:

    Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -

    (a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or

    (b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or

    (c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated

    (d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.


    Amazingly, it isn't directly relevant to the discussion, but it is as relevant to me, or more so, than Roe.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 10-13-17 at 10:22 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  4. #954
    Sage
    minnie616's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    14,808

    Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Why do you keep quoting Roe vs Wade at me? It isn't directly relevant, and I'm not even an America. SCOTUS and its rulings mean little to me.

    Can I start quoting British law to you? Here is the Abortion Act 1967:

    Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -

    (a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or

    (b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or

    (c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated

    (d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.


    Amazingly, it isn't directly relevant to the discussion, but it is as relevant to me, or more so, than Roe.
    Thank you for sharing the British law Abortion Act of 1967

    I am curious what percent of BritIsh abortions occur in the first trimester?
    Last edited by minnie616; 10-14-17 at 02:37 AM.
    Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    Matthew 7:1 KJV

  5. #955
    Sage
    minnie616's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    14,808

    Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Why do you keep quoting Roe vs Wade at me? It isn't directly relevant, and I'm not even an America. SCOTUS and its rulings mean little to me.

    Can I start quoting British law to you? Here is the Abortion Act 1967:

    Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -

    (a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or

    (b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or

    (c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated

    (d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.


    Amazingly, it isn't directly relevant to the discussion, but it is as relevant to me, or more so, than Roe.


    While I could not find any stats about the percentage of British abortions that took place during the first trimester (in the US it over 91 percent ) I did find stats for the

    Percentage of Pregnancies Aborted by Country
    (countries listed by percentage)

    compiled by Wm. Robert Johnston
    last updated 13 September 2015

    It lists that 2014 the United Kingdom had 20.2 percent pregnancies aborted
    And in the US the year before (2013) the United States had 20.2 percent pregnancies aborted.


    Interestingly our abortion laws are very similar including the health concerns regarding abortions.

    Except in the US our states are able to add some of their rules such as having waiting periods , ultrasounds paid the woman and yes , in US abortions are not paid for the federal government except for Medicaid patients who were raped, incest , or whose life is seriously at risk from the pregnacy.
    Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    Matthew 7:1 KJV

  6. #956
    Sage
    minnie616's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    14,808

    Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

    Sorry I forgot to post link for the Johnston percentage of pregnancies aborted by country



    Percentage of Pregnancies Aborted by Country
    (countries listed by percentage)

    compiled by Wm. Robert Johnston
    last updated 13 September 2015

    It lists that 2014 the United Kingdom had 20.2 percent pregnancies aborted
    And in the US the year before (2013) the United States had 20.2 percent pregnancies aborted.


    Percentage of pregnancies aborted by country (listed by percentage)
    Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    Matthew 7:1 KJV

  7. #957
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Over the edge...
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    13,715

    Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You seem very defensive.
    You got that wrong too. I just pointed out the lacking in your arguments.

    I'm not sure what your second point means. Are you arguing there are good philosophical arguments for personhood beginning, say, at birth?
    Yes and none for before.

    Or do you disagree there can be good arguments for it beginning at conception or early in pregnancy?
    See above.

    My point was very catholic
    Since the entire world is not, it renders it irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Of course the third world dregs are breeding like rabbits.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    ...these people have no responsibility for their own actions. [like third world dregs]

  8. #958
    Guru
    Celebrity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    VT, USA
    Last Seen
    10-15-17 @ 11:57 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,937

    Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    My point was very catholic
    Since the entire world is not, it renders it irrelevant.
    By that logic, since the entire world does not consist of women, then an argument constructed in the interest of women is irrelevant.

    Nice virtue signaling, champ. Maybe you'll get a participation trophy.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Then, you can't complain about this.
    That's the thing about living in a free country, you don't get to pick and choose the rights you want protected. Either they're all protected, or none of them are.

  9. #959
    Sage
    Lursa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Outside Seattle
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    27,424

    Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You make some good points. I think the fundamental issue is whether or not the fetus is a person, and from what point. There are good philosophical arguments for it becoming a person at multiple points from conception to third trimester. There are pro-choice extremists (a few here) who think it doesn't matter whether the fetus is a person - the woman's right to her trumps its right to life even in that situation. But even most pro-choicers would balk at that, so the key issue is when it becomes a person. A lot of the reason people talk past each other in these debates is because people have different beliefs on this issue. For example, it is one thing to say it is an invasion of a woman's right to privacy to say she can't abort what is not yet a human person inside of her, it is something else to say her privacy means she can kill a full human being, as much a person as you or I, in her womb.
    When is a human being complete to become a "full human being?"

    When should it become a 'person?' Your opinion, please. And then how you weight that against this: Death during the pregnancy/childbirth process can happen to EITHER unborn or woman. Unpredicted, unplanned. Who has the authority to judge that the value of the unborn's life is higher? Or the woman's? Right now, it is the woman's. But it can never be equal for both.

    Here is what I base my opinion on it. While I value the unborn, I value women (any born person) more because:

    After birth is when someone's rights can be upheld without violating the rights of someone else (without due process). Before birth, the unborn has no rights that can be separated from the mother (physically, legally, ethically, practically). It's a dependency that truly demonstrates that it is not equal.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  10. #960
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Over the edge...
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    13,715

    Re: Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    By that logic, since the entire world does not consist of women, then an argument constructed in the interest of women is irrelevant.

    Nice virtue signaling, champ. Maybe you'll get a participation trophy.
    Certainly you will for bringing this drivel into the discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Of course the third world dregs are breeding like rabbits.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    ...these people have no responsibility for their own actions. [like third world dregs]

Page 96 of 96 FirstFirst ... 4686949596

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •