Abortion: BOTH sides have good points. My attempt to interpret both sides[W:139, 451]

year2late said:

First of all, my decision was to maintain my pregnancy.

Most women who chose abortion believe they do not have either the social, physical, or financial ability to maintain pregnancy.

Many narrow-mindedly believe that it I just as simple as giving a baby up for adoption, In negates the real life issue that most women who chose abortion have substandard access to medical care (either no insurance or Medicaid)and have difficulty making ends meet, Being pregnant can mean losing shifts needed to make rent, pay for utilities and transportation.

I had the "luxury" of being able to make all my appointments and when severe complications set in,,,,,I was able to immediately take time off (even though I really didn't' feel too bad. Women who are pregnant and poor realize that keeping utilities and a safe living environment IS a health related issue.

I was off nearly 6 months and did "ok" since I had the ability to run up 10s of thousands in debt in order to maintain my place to live and keep my decent healthcare insurance.

I am curious, if you were pregnant and lost your insurance had had severe complications of pregnancy.....would you want to have Medicaid and be relegated to a clinic in a different city in an unsafe area with long waits?

Being without adequate resources and pregnant can be a very serious issue.

Only the woman pregnant can decide if she has the physical, social, and financial resources to maintain pregnancy.

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ksu_aviator said:

Even if we assume those statistics are single reason (no overlap) that is still only 1/4 of all abortions. Still not factually accurate to say abortion is primarily a health issue.


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Bucky said:

I strongly believe if we had a single payer system, fewer women would have an abortion. It's a damn shame in our country people have to gamble on if they should be covered or not be covered. That's a damn travesty.

Corporate America is extremely anti-women, it sickens me. For women to move up in the corporate ladder, they literally cannot afford to get pregnant or they will lose out on their promotion.

I don't want to rant however abortion rates are lowest in countries that provide health care as a right, not a luxury.

I was born and raised in a country where health care was guaranteed to me. When learning about the American health care system, not only was I confused and sickened.

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year2late said:

First of all, my decision was to maintain my pregnancy.

Most women who chose abortion believe they do not have either the social, physical, or financial ability to maintain pregnancy.

Many narrow-mindedly believe that it I just as simple as giving a baby up for adoption, In negates the real life issue that most women who chose abortion have substandard access to medical care (either no insurance or Medicaid)and have difficulty making ends meet, Being pregnant can mean losing shifts needed to make rent, pay for utilities and transportation.

I had the "luxury" of being able to make all my appointments and when severe complications set in,,,,,I was able to immediately take time off (even though I really didn't' feel too bad. Women who are pregnant and poor realize that keeping utilities and a safe living environment IS a health related issue.

I was off nearly 6 months and did "ok" since I had the ability to run up 10s of thousands in debt in order to maintain my place to live and keep my decent healthcare insurance.

I am curious, if you were pregnant and lost your insurance had had severe complications of pregnancy.....would you want to have Medicaid and be relegated to a clinic in a different city in an unsafe area with long waits?

Being without adequate resources and pregnant can be a very serious issue.

Only the woman pregnant can decide if she has the physical, social, and financial resources to maintain pregnancy.

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ModerationNow! said:

I've been on both sides of this issue. Ironically, I was on the pro-life side at the time that I was more likely to vote Democrat and oppose conservatism. But now that I see myself as a moderate conservative, I'm actually somewhat pro-choice, at least involving early term abortion.

It's often the case that partisans tend to come up with dishonest and inaccurate words and phrases to positively describe the name of their group or their political positions. But in the case of abortion, both sides have chosen terminology that accurately describes their positions. The pro-choice group are accurately supporting choice, and the pro-life side are genuinely defending human life.

But the fact that often seems to escape both sides, is that this issue isn't as cut and dry as they attempt to make it out to be. Example: If the argument was whether or not a parent should be allowed to 'abort' the life of their 15 year old kid, because of his/her rebellious mannerisms and bad grades, BOTH sides would be marching together to oppose that.

But it doesn't involve 'post-birth' people, it involves a pre-birth fetus or baby(depending upon your choice of terminology). But even though the person hasn't been born yet, it doesn't make them any less human to the pro-life side. Therefore to them, it's murder. Pro-lifers think that every person has a right to life. Many also support the death penalty, but that's a completely different circumstance involving the worst of society's murderous criminals, not innocent babies who have never even been granted the ability to live their life.

But to pro-choice folks, what's most important is a woman's ability to make decisions that directly involve her own body. For many women, mind and body are inextricably linked, probably more so than for men. So, regardless of the reason she became pregnant, and regardless of the fact that the fetus will eventually grow into a person, she may feel that being FORCED to take the pregnancy to term and birth, is going to be a major mental and physical event that cannot be minimized. If she isn't prepared to raise a kid, and she is worried about the negative mental and physical ramifications that may develop after birth. That can be an enormous burden, and the idea that she just isn't allowed to have any input on what happens inside her own body at that point, was probably a pretty difficult and frustrating reality. Granted, she could put the baby up for adoption, but that still means that she has to go through the incredibly 'inconvenient' 270 days of pregnancy. Its not as simple as just carrying around an extra item in your pocket for 9 months! There can be other mental and physical problems that arise after giving birth.

So obviously both sides are on solid moral ground here, it's just not a simple issue, and it shouldn't be trivialized by anyone.

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HowardBThiname said:

I'm with you. I was pro-life for a long time, but, as I understood more about what women face with unwanted pregnancies, I shifted toward a pro-choice in early pregnancy position.

We should not forget that a fetus is a POTENTIAL human being, however, and as a pregnancy proceeds, that fetus should become more valuable in terms of personhood. I don't think anyone here would support aborting a late-term baby a week before it was due to be born. That would be horrific, but in the first trimester, it's a bit different.

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Your due date is based on your last menstrual period, so that would put it about two weeks off from your conception date. While pregnancy is actually 9 1/2 months, doctors calculate it as 10 months because they add those two weeks in before conception.

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ksu_aviator said:

Women have plenty of resources to help with every situation. Some are charitable and some are government.

Texas Pregnancy Care Network | Home
https://www.babycenter.com/0_help-for-low-income-pregnant-women-and-families_10320594.bc
https://www.growingfamilybenefits.com/financial-assistance-while-pregnant/
https://anybabycan.org/community-resources/
Financial help for pregnant women or moms
https://www.benefits.gov/benefits/browse-by-category/category/28
http://www.pregnancyandchildren.com/pregnancy/pregnancy_financial_help.htm
http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/financial-help-pregnant-women
http://www.livestrong.com/article/36846-resources-single-pregnant-mothers/

I just see these unborn children as human lives that should be protected. I understand that there are concerns for the mother as well and I'm empathetic towards that. I just think the life should be more important than the inconveniences.


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HowardBThiname said:

I don't think anyone here would support aborting a late-term baby a week before it was due to be born.

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HowardBThiname said:

That would be horrific,

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HowardBThiname said:

but in the first trimester, it's a bit different.

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ksu_aviator said:

Single payer makes health care a privilege, not a right. Rights are not provided by the government.

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Bucky said:

Correct, however, the government administers rights and health care at this moment is not a right. Not everyone can afford health care which makes it a luxury for most today, even though it is a right.

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FutureIncoming said:

YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED. First, because even a week before a birth happens, an unborn human is still too different from an ordinary baby to ever be equated with an ordinary baby. Modern DNA tests have proved that much of the placenta is part of the overall unborn human entity. The placenta is a vital organ for the unborn human, as vital as the heart. But no ordinary baby either has or needs a placenta functioning as a vital organ. For thousands of years humans ignorantly thought that the placenta was part of the mother's body, and nowadays we know better (only part of it has the mother's DNA, and for her it is not a vital organ!). When talking about an unborn human, you can never exclude the attached placenta functioning as a vital organ! And that is what makes the unborn human very different from an ordinary baby, even minutes before birth.

FURTHERMORE, having a placenta means that for an unborn human, its "modus operandi" for survival is EXTREMELY different from the M.O. of an ordinary baby. The placenta is used to steal biological nutrients from another human's body. The placenta is used to dump toxic biowastes into another human's body. The placents is used to infuse addictive substances into another human's body (the withdrawal symptoms are partly responsible for post-partum depression when a pregnancy ends). And the placenta is used to infuse a mind-altering substance into another human's body (tends to cause a woman to change her mind about adopting-out her newborn). ALL THOSE THINGS ARE BEING DONE EVEN MINUTES BEFORE BIRTH. And any one of those things would be called "assault" if an adult did it to another adult (stealing nutrients is something fictional vampires do, remember? --and fictional vampires are fully-person-class entities that traditionally can be destroyed at any time in retribution for just that ONE type of assault!).

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THOSE FOUR ASSAULTS ARE HORRIFIC THE WHOLE TIME. But what is even more horrific is the notion of enslaving a woman to her pregnancy, which dehumanizes her, turning her into a toilet, a receptacle for toxic biowastes. And forcing her to experience assault for month after month. How would you like to be forced into something far less blatant in terms of assault, like Chinese Water Torture, for eight continuous months?


NOPE. NOT DIFFERENT. Assault is assault!

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ksu_aviator said:

Women have plenty of resources to help with every situation. Some are charitable and some are government.

Texas Pregnancy Care Network | Home
https://www.babycenter.com/0_help-for-low-income-pregnant-women-and-families_10320594.bc
https://www.growingfamilybenefits.com/financial-assistance-while-pregnant/
https://anybabycan.org/community-resources/
Financial help for pregnant women or moms
https://www.benefits.gov/benefits/browse-by-category/category/28
http://www.pregnancyandchildren.com/pregnancy/pregnancy_financial_help.htm
http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/financial-help-pregnant-women
http://www.livestrong.com/article/36846-resources-single-pregnant-mothers/

I just see these unborn children as human lives that should be protected. I understand that there are concerns for the mother as well and I'm empathetic towards that. I just think the life should be more important than the inconveniences.


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year2late said:

Which is one of the reasons women choose abortion. They know they have inadequate resources to prevent or treat things going bad during pregnancy. Certainly not a singular reason for most, but one in many reasons.

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Bucky said:

..............."Which is one of the reasons women choose abortion".....................

Key word being highlighted. Women choose an abortion, they choose to get pregnant. We are not talking about a pre-existing condition beyond the person's control or something they were born with. Being pregnant is the result of an action that is entirely voluntary.

Thus, a voluntary abortion shouldn't be covered through health care. It is not necessary to have an abortion. It doesn't save a life.

End of story.

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minnie616 said:

What about rape? What about coercion ?


Also...
When women use artifical birth control consistanly they are choosing not to become pregnant.
However , no form of artifical birth control currently is fail proof.

Over 60 percent of women in the US use artifical birth control consistently in the US and that percentage is not including the women who cannot get pregnant due to a medical condition or a medical procedure.

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Bucky said:

..............."Which is one of the reasons women choose abortion".....................

Key word being highlighted. Women choose an abortion, they choose to get pregnant. We are not talking about a pre-existing condition beyond the person's control or something they were born with. Being pregnant is the result of an action that is entirely voluntary.

Thus, a voluntary abortion shouldn't be covered through health care. It is not necessary to have an abortion. It doesn't save a life.

End of story.

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year2late said:

Federal funds are not used for abortion (except in the case of a Medicaid recipient who is a victim of rape or incest)

After all this time, you seem oddly unaware. Is someone here aggressively fighting for that?

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minnie616 said:

What about rape? What about coercion ?

Also...
When women use artifical birth control consistanly they are choosing not to become pregnant.
However , no form of artifical birth control currently is fail proof.

Over 60 percent of women in the US use artifical birth control consistently in the US and that percentage is not including the women who cannot get pregnant due to a medical condition or a medical procedure.

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Bucky said:

I am referring to abortion being covered via insurance.

That shouldn't be allowed.

Answer me this year2late:

If gastric surgery isn't covered under insurance, why is an abortion?

I'll patiently wait for your response.

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Bucky said:

1) Is there actual proof that women can get pregnant via rape?

2) Make the exception then. Abortion shall not be covered under insurance unless coercion or rape was involved. I am not including incest because incest IMO is a choice.

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Bucky said:

Correct, however, the government administers rights and health care at this moment is not a right. Not everyone can afford health care which makes it a luxury for most today, even though it is a right.

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year2late said:

Will these resources take away the health risks? I was very healthy and ended up with several major complications and C-section (unrelated to the complications)

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Removable Mind said:

Why?????????

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ksu_aviator said:

No. Governments do not administer rights. Governments administer privileges. Every country that has single payer has usurped the right to health care (subsequently the right to life) by forcing every citizen to seek permission from the government to seek treatment.


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ksu_aviator said:

Unless you were forced to have sex, you knew or should have known the possibility of becoming pregnant. If you engaged in the activity with a known risk, you assume the consequences of that activity. You shouldn't be able to end a life because the risk became reality.


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