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Abortion Debate Issue

DebateChallenge

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I've seen this issue come up in the abortion debate, I've particularly seen people in the pro choice crowd take this position. Although there might be people in the pro life crowd who take this position too I've yet to meet a pro lifer who does. This is the issue. Some people say that men should not be involved in the abortion debate at all, that its strictly a woman's debate and its something to be resolved entirely by women. It doesn't matter if a man is pro choice or pro life he should not be involved in the debate because men don't have children and men don't get pregnant. Therefore when it comes to men, the abortion debate is none of their business. As I said its primarily the pro choice crowd that takes this position, at least that's what I've observed. I've never heard of a pro lifer taking that position but that's not to say that there aren't pro lifers that do. Thoughts?
 
I've seen this issue come up in the abortion debate, I've particularly seen people in the pro choice crowd take this position. Although there might be people in the pro life crowd who take this position too I've yet to meet a pro lifer who does. This is the issue. Some people say that men should not be involved in the abortion debate at all, that its strictly a woman's debate and its something to be resolved entirely by women. It doesn't matter if a man is pro choice or pro life he should not be involved in the debate because men don't have children and men don't get pregnant. Therefore when it comes to men, the abortion debate is none of their business. As I said its primarily the pro choice crowd that takes this position, at least that's what I've observed. I've never heard of a pro lifer taking that position but that's not to say that there aren't pro lifers that do. Thoughts?

It is nobody else's business what a woman does with her body.
 
I've seen this issue come up in the abortion debate, I've particularly seen people in the pro choice crowd take this position. Although there might be people in the pro life crowd who take this position too I've yet to meet a pro lifer who does. This is the issue. Some people say that men should not be involved in the abortion debate at all, that its strictly a woman's debate and its something to be resolved entirely by women. It doesn't matter if a man is pro choice or pro life he should not be involved in the debate because men don't have children and men don't get pregnant. Therefore when it comes to men, the abortion debate is none of their business. As I said its primarily the pro choice crowd that takes this position, at least that's what I've observed. I've never heard of a pro lifer taking that position but that's not to say that there aren't pro lifers that do. Thoughts?
THAT WASN'T VERY CLEAR (at least in the first part of what you wrote). Is the Challenge to prove that men have some kind of right to be involved in the Overall Abortion Debate?

IF SO, then consider this: A Debate properly consists of Facts and Logic. Why should the sex (or even the species) of any Debate-participant matter, so long as they are presenting relevant Facts and Logic?
 
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THAT WASN'T VERY CLEAR (at least in the first part of what you wrote). Is the Challenge to prove that men have some kind of right to be involved in the Overall Abortion Debate?

IF SO, then consider this: A Debate properly consists of Facts and Logic. Why should the sex (or even the species) of any Debate-participant matter, so long as they are presenting relevant Facts and Logic?

The question is whether or not men should be involved in the abortion debate. As of right now I am taking a neutral position on that but I just want to see what other people have to say about it. You've made it clear that you think men should be able to be involved.
 
I've seen this issue come up in the abortion debate, I've particularly seen people in the pro choice crowd take this position. Although there might be people in the pro life crowd who take this position too I've yet to meet a pro lifer who does. This is the issue. Some people say that men should not be involved in the abortion debate at all, that its strictly a woman's debate and its something to be resolved entirely by women. It doesn't matter if a man is pro choice or pro life he should not be involved in the debate because men don't have children and men don't get pregnant. Therefore when it comes to men, the abortion debate is none of their business. As I said its primarily the pro choice crowd that takes this position, at least that's what I've observed. I've never heard of a pro lifer taking that position but that's not to say that there aren't pro lifers that do. Thoughts?

A Federal District court Judge appointed by Bush 1, in Texas stated the same thing. Citing he's tired of getting all these abortion bills on his desk that he is continually having to overturn. When asked why he thought he got so many. He stated because most Republican state legislators are men and they really have no business interferring into woman's issues.

Roe V Wade was passed over 45 years ago--and Niel Gorsuch--Trump's appointee to the U.S. Supreme court stated it is now precedent in the U.S. Constitution meaning it is now set in stone.
Gorsuch to Feinstein: Abortion ruling is 'precedent' | Fox News

Any Governor like now VP Mike Pense who puts the taxpayer's at risk for class action law suits over a state abortion bill, really has no business holding elected office.
Pence signs new abortion restrictions into law with a prayer
Judge halts Indiana's new abortion law

U.S supreme court issues belong no where on a political platform. They're great for killing elections. In fact it is the reason Mitt Romney lost in 2012.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/richar...ost-and-republicans-keep-losing/#3689f9e77022
Gender Gap in 2012 Vote Is Largest in Gallup's History | Gallup
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...-woman-problem-20150812-column.html#ifrndnloc

Women are tired of having their integrity & intelligence insulted by right wing extremists. They don't like to be treated as though they're 2nd class citizens.

170121211838-28-womens-march-dc-exlarge-169.jpg

That couldn't be more clear than the woman's march that was held the day after Trump was inaugurated. This was going on in every state in this country not just Washington D.C. For more pictures of the woman's march you can go to this link. They were in the millions.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/womans-march-pictures.565259/
 
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The question devolves into this dichotomy: It takes TWO to make the baby, a man and a woman; but only ONE, the woman, ultimately decides whether to keep it or not.

My opinion has always been on the side of the woman's right to choose, simply because the birthing process occurs wholly within their own body and I am a strong advocate of an individual's right to decide what to do with their own body. :yes:

The problem comes with the long-term effects of this choice on BOTH parties after the birth; with the male now facing the legal burdens imposed by society to accept equal responsibility for the woman's choice.

This means either marriage and/or long-term child support. THIS is the part I do not agree with. :no:

I support a woman's right to choose. I also support a man's right to not only refuse to accept any responsibility for this unilateral choice, but also to be protected from any legal obligation to support it thereafter.
 
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I've seen this issue come up in the abortion debate, I've particularly seen people in the pro choice crowd take this position. Although there might be people in the pro life crowd who take this position too I've yet to meet a pro lifer who does. This is the issue. Some people say that men should not be involved in the abortion debate at all, that its strictly a woman's debate and its something to be resolved entirely by women. It doesn't matter if a man is pro choice or pro life he should not be involved in the debate because men don't have children and men don't get pregnant. Therefore when it comes to men, the abortion debate is none of their business. As I said its primarily the pro choice crowd that takes this position, at least that's what I've observed. I've never heard of a pro lifer taking that position but that's not to say that there aren't pro lifers that do. Thoughts?

I'll do you one better: no one at all should have anything to say about anything, except any given pregnant woman who is making her own decision. The sole exception to that is qualified medical researchers who regulate the safety of our modern procedures and medications for such.

If a woman feels like imbuing a man with the privilege of an opinion on her pregnancy, lovely, it's always nice when things can be worked out mutually even when there is no obligation to do so. But otherwise, no, it's not his business, or her mother's, or her governor's, or anyone else's.
 
I've seen this issue come up in the abortion debate, I've particularly seen people in the pro choice crowd take this position. Although there might be people in the pro life crowd who take this position too I've yet to meet a pro lifer who does. This is the issue. Some people say that men should not be involved in the abortion debate at all, that its strictly a woman's debate and its something to be resolved entirely by women. It doesn't matter if a man is pro choice or pro life he should not be involved in the debate because men don't have children and men don't get pregnant. Therefore when it comes to men, the abortion debate is none of their business. As I said its primarily the pro choice crowd that takes this position, at least that's what I've observed. I've never heard of a pro lifer taking that position but that's not to say that there aren't pro lifers that do. Thoughts?

It isn't a question of who should determine the kill. ;)
 
It is nobody else's business what a woman does with her body.

She has already determined that. It is the little guy's fate that is at stake.

And worse, the precedent of a society determining groups of innocent humans that citizens may kill at will.
 
She has already determined that. It is the little guy's fate that is at stake.

And worse, the precedent of a society determining groups of innocent humans that citizens may kill at will.

This premise is based on an assumption.
 
I've seen this issue come up in the abortion debate, I've particularly seen people in the pro choice crowd take this position. Although there might be people in the pro life crowd who take this position too I've yet to meet a pro lifer who does. This is the issue. Some people say that men should not be involved in the abortion debate at all, that its strictly a woman's debate and its something to be resolved entirely by women. It doesn't matter if a man is pro choice or pro life he should not be involved in the debate because men don't have children and men don't get pregnant. Therefore when it comes to men, the abortion debate is none of their business. As I said its primarily the pro choice crowd that takes this position, at least that's what I've observed. I've never heard of a pro lifer taking that position but that's not to say that there aren't pro lifers that do. Thoughts?

the man does play a role because the baby takes 50% of his chromosomes just as it took 50% of the mothers chromosomes. the man should play a role because it is just as much his baby as it is her child.
 
the baby takes 50% off the man's chromosomes just as the baby takes 50% of the mother's chromosomes. the man should be able to play a role because it is just as much his baby as it is hers.
 
Part of the problem is that up until very recently in US history, 100% of the law makers and SCOTUS justices were men.
Another aspect is that up until recently in world history, all the religious leaders were men.

Further to that, until recently in world history, women had little to no say at all in what they could or couldn't do legally.
Medically. Politically. All of it.

Now, consider what a woman goes through from conception through birth.
If you're a male that's almost impossible to imagine even if you've been through the process with your spouse numerous times.

So, to the OP, how much of a "right" do men have when it comes to pregnancy and child birth choices?
They have some, but the lion's share obviously goes to the woman.

To suggest it is, or should be 50/50 is ludicrous.

As to how much of a voice men should have?
Again, it's not equal, but it's there. It just doesn't carry the same weight.

Along with that, women who are past menopause, their opinions carry less weight too.
A bunch of 70+ year old grandmother's don't have equal influence (on this subject) as a bunch of 20 and 30 year old ladies.
 
the baby takes 50% off the man's chromosomes just as the baby takes 50% of the mother's chromosomes. the man should be able to play a role because it is just as much his baby as it is hers.

And your perceived solution to this dilemma is?
 
As long as the fetus is using the woman's physiology.....the decisions are emphatically the woman's. I would hope she would be in a situation to consider the father's input.


If there is a baby born, that is another issue.
 
The question devolves into this dichotomy: It takes TWO to make the baby, a man and a woman; but only ONE, the woman, ultimately decides whether to keep it or not.

My opinion has always been on the side of the woman's right to choose, simply because the birthing process occurs wholly within their own body and I am a strong advocate of an individual's right to decide what to do with their own body. :yes:

The problem comes with the long-term effects of this choice on BOTH parties after the birth; with the male now facing the legal burdens imposed by society to accept equal responsibility for the woman's choice.

This means either marriage and/or long-term child support. THIS is the part I do not agree with. :no:

I support a woman's right to choose. I also support a man's right to not only refuse to accept any responsibility for this unilateral choice, but also to be protected from any legal obligation to support it thereafter.

I agree that there are inequalities in reproductive rights. But the inequalities are more complicated than many believe.

The usual positions that surround men's reproductive rights inequalities are predicated on women's Constitutional right to select "a legal option" to continue or terminate a pregnancy.

A primary underlying conflict is that while a lot of pro-choice women adamantly are for the right to choose, mainly because of so many potential complication variables, they personally won't get an abortion unless medically necessary. So in this respect the right to choose is fundamentally "legal options" vs "moral choice". This is evident by the fact that most conceptions are brought to full term. Even if the reason for giving birth is for moral reasons. Giving birth still a choice.

Another important aspect is that this issue isn't a two party situation. There are several players potentially involved.

1) bio mom
2) bio dad
3) prenatal stage of a human life (with no legal/Constitutional rights)
4) born child (with legal/Constitutional rights)
5) the State
6) the Taxpayers

(NOTE: The bio dad can't prevent a woman from having an abortion - nor can he force a woman to abort. These legal restraints on men fall under the category of a reproductive rights inequality. And where I note a reproductive inequality existing - it is not me claiming that I am in opposition to or support theses inequalities. I'm merely noting issues that Men's Rights Group have identified as inequalities.)

If the bio mom chooses not to terminate a pregnancy and maintain posesssion of the child, and is willing to not force the bio dad to pay support, the State is still Constitutionally bound to protect the taxpayers. If a situation arises where the bio mom applies for assistance from the State, despite any objections the woman might have, the State will meet its statutory obligations and involve the bio dad. (This issue is under the category of a reproductive rights inequality)

If a woman chooses to not terminate a pregnancy and asks the bio dad for support, the State is Constitutionally bound to protect the taxpayers and it will force the bio dad to pay support. (This issue is under the category of a reproductive rights inequality)

If a bio mom chooses to not terminate the pregnancy and encounters serious medical issues that would force her to abort, and she is eligible for Medicaid, the taxpayers will be forced to allow government payment for the abortion. (The reproductive inequality rights issue with men in this specific circumstance might be the inability to have any control over a woman's choosing to terminate or not terminate since men can't legally influence women to choose either way)

There's probably a number of inequality issues that I haven't included in this post, but I'll end my post by saying I am adamantly aware of reproductive inequalities between men and women, but unless the State and taxpayers are willing to recuse bio dads of any responsibilities to the welfare of unwanted born children, then I don't see any change in men being forced to pay child support...and be willing to assume the bio dad's financial role,
 
The question devolves into this dichotomy: It takes TWO to make the baby, a man and a woman; but only ONE, the woman, ultimately decides whether to keep it or not.

My opinion has always been on the side of the woman's right to choose, simply because the birthing process occurs wholly within their own body and I am a strong advocate of an individual's right to decide what to do with their own body. :yes:

The problem comes with the long-term effects of this choice on BOTH parties after the birth; with the male now facing the legal burdens imposed by society to accept equal responsibility for the woman's choice.

This means either marriage and/or long-term child support. THIS is the part I do not agree with. :no:

I support a woman's right to choose. I also support a man's right to not only refuse to accept any responsibility for this unilateral choice, but also to be protected from any legal obligation to support it thereafter.

Your narrow minded beliefs totally ignores the reason for the apparent dichotomy in the law. The well being of the child. Why do you not even consider that?
 
the baby takes 50% off the man's chromosomes just as the baby takes 50% of the mother's chromosomes. the man should be able to play a role because it is just as much his baby as it is hers.

What percentage of gestation and giving birth is done by the man?
 
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