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Pregnancy Complications Are The Leading Killer Of ​​Females Aged 15-19

spud_meister said:
Do you notice it's developed nations with legal abortions? Could that possibly be because legalising abortions prior to having the necessary infrastructural and cultural changes in place is pointless?
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There are lots of factors working together. I suspect that the fact that we no longer rely on having many children for sustenance in old age at the personal level is a driving force. At the societal one I think it probably is that it became unnecessary for women to have 6 or 7 kids to maintain reproduction.
 
spud_meister said:
That's making the assumption the legal abortion won't be performed with a coat hanger, which is not a guarantee in many impoverished nations. Simply making abortions legal does not ensure they are safe or accessible.
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From the following:

Banning Abortion Doesn't Actually Reduce Abortion Rates at All

A report from the Lancet, a medical journal, shows that the abortion rate in countries that have banned the practice is actually higher than in countries where women have access to abortion.

...

[Figures from 2012]

Western Europe has the world's lowest termination rate: 12 a year for every 1,000 women of reproductive age. North America aborts 19 foetuses for every 1,000 women. In South America, where (when the figures were collected) the practice was banned everywhere, the rate was 32. In eastern Africa, it was 38.
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Read more:

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/artic...n-rates-at-all
 
spud_meister said:
Do you notice it's developed nations with legal abortions? Could that possibly be because legalising abortions prior to having the necessary infrastructural and cultural changes in place is pointless?
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Abortions before quickening were legal in the early colonial days.
 
spud_meister said:
Do you genuinely believe that legalising abortions in nations where they don't have basic sanitation or access to proper healthcare, where young women would face consequences ranging from being shunned to being murdered, is the better option, than ensuring proper sanitation, access to healthcare, education and economic improvement so that women aren't forced by circumstances to have large amounts of children?

Legalising abortion is way, way, way down on the list of things that would improve healthcare outcomes for women in impoverished nations. So far down in fact, that insinuating the legalisation or prohibition of abortion is somehow related to the statistics cited in the OP is just ****ing laughable.
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Yes, I think that human rights for women, including abortion are every bit, if not more important, than a modern sewer system. I think many women would agree. And, in the places where abortion is most stigmatized, rape is more common and women, in general, are treated as cattle.

I don't understand how you can believe that rights for women must be preceeded by sanitation upgrades. I don't think they would share your priorities. I also find it insulting to women to suggest that their rights should be mitigated by the relative ignorance of the local men. That's like saying that the human rights of women must always be a function of the level of religiosity among the male population. I agree that it often seems to be the reality but that reality was established and maintained through violence.

Might makes right, as a philosophy, is not going to serve women or create civil society. It creates a slave/master paradigm that fits in far too well with the religions that were bequeathed to us by our misogynist, moronic ancestors. We can and must be better than that. Taking away their rights to protect them from the judgments of morons is to accept their condition as inevitable.

We could put more political pressure on those places if so much similar dogma didn’t corrupt our own nation and the minds of conservatives here.
 
D_NATURED said:
Yes, I think that human rights for women, including abortion are every bit, if not more important, than a modern sewer system. I think many women would agree. And, in the places where abortion is most stigmatized, rape is more common and women, in general, are treated as cattle.

I don't understand how you can believe that rights for women must be preceeded by sanitation upgrades. I don't think they would share your priorities. I also find it insulting to women to suggest that their rights should be mitigated by the relative ignorance of the local men. That's like saying that the human rights of women must always be a function of the level of religiosity among the male population. I agree that it often seems to be the reality but that reality was established and maintained through violence.

Might makes right, as a philosophy, is not going to serve women or create civil society. It creates a slave/master paradigm that fits in far too well with the religions that were bequeathed to us by our misogynist, moronic ancestors. We can and must be better than that. Taking away their rights to protect them from the judgments of morons is to accept their condition as inevitable.

We could put more political pressure on those places if so much similar dogma didn’t corrupt our own nation and the minds of conservatives here.
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Holy strawman Batman!

My point is that just legalising abortion would not improve healthcare outcomes. Legalisation does not magically summon healthcare practitioners to rural areas. It does not magically make ultrasounds or amniocentesis readily available. It does not educate women. It does not change the attitudes of others. It does not stop people using unsafe methods to perform abortions in the absence of a magically summoned healthcare provider.

Until things like those are changed, legalising abortion will not improve healthcare outcomes in poor communities. Again, because it seems people in this sub-forum have trouble reading, legalising abortion will not improve healthcare outcomes. That's all I'm saying. Nothing more.
 
D_NATURED said:
Yes, I think that human rights for women, including abortion are every bit, if not more important, than a modern sewer system. I think many women would agree. And, in the places where abortion is most stigmatized, rape is more common and women, in general, are treated as cattle.
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What's their favorite cut of woman? I bet it's prime rib.
 
Henrin said:
What's their favorite cut of woman? I bet it's prime rib.
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When we are talking meat...I think the tips should be discarded.
 
spud_meister said:
Holy strawman Batman!

My point is that just legalising abortion would not improve healthcare outcomes. Legalisation does not magically summon healthcare practitioners to rural areas. It does not magically make ultrasounds or amniocentesis readily available. It does not educate women. It does not change the attitudes of others. It does not stop people using unsafe methods to perform abortions in the absence of a magically summoned healthcare provider.

Until things like those are changed, legalising abortion will not improve healthcare outcomes in poor communities. Again, because it seems people in this sub-forum have trouble reading, legalising abortion will not improve healthcare outcomes. That's all I'm saying. Nothing more.
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Well, that's still like saying that there is a good excuse for women not having rights in many places. Before women can be free, men must accept that they are not our property. I would prefer that a fundamental shift in male attitudes existed where it, apparently, does not but I'll take simple legalization if I have to. At least if the law is on the sides of women, when local men are not, their stupidity will be conspicuously wrong and they won't be able to use the law as justification for their oppression. Of course religious law still exists and THAT, more than anything, is what holds women down and treats them like whores, both here and abroad.

The whole argument about abortion not improving healthcare outcomes is also wrong. When women are empowered, they don't over-procreate and that is better for EVERYONE in their community. I say we start with equal rights and fight bigotry and misogyny where it rears its ugly head and not kid ourselves into thinking that women's rights can only exist as part of a slow, deliberate process of social change.
 
D_NATURED said:
Well, that's still like saying that there is a good excuse for women not having rights in many places.
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No, it's not. It's the refutation of the idea that changing the legal status of abortion is a panacea.

The whole argument about abortion not improving healthcare outcomes is also wrong.
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No, it's not. As Minnie showed, women in poorer nations are more likely to get abortions, and the OP showed they're more likely to die from them. Legalising abortion wouldn't change that statistic, only ensuring abortions are safe and accessible would.

When women are empowered, they don't over-procreate and that is better for EVERYONE in their community.
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When women are educated, they don't over-procreate. When infant mortality is reduced, they don't over-procreate. When women are able to participate in the economy, they don't over-procreate. I'd love for you to show me a proven causal link specifically between legalised abortion in impoverished nations and improvements for "EVERYONE" in a community.
 
spud_meister said:
No, it's not. It's the refutation of the idea that changing the legal status of abortion is a panacea.



No, it's not. As Minnie showed, women in poorer nations are more likely to get abortions, and the OP showed they're more likely to die from them. Legalising abortion wouldn't change that statistic, only ensuring abortions are safe and accessible would.



When women are educated, they don't over-procreate. When infant mortality is reduced, they don't over-procreate. When women are able to participate in the economy, they don't over-procreate. I'd love for you to show me a proven causal link specifically between legalised abortion in impoverished nations and improvements for "EVERYONE" in a community.
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Legalizaling abortions will make them safer.
There are many doctors across boarders that will help make them safer.

There are UN organizations that will help the teens get safe abortions and will help bring the numbers of unsafe abortions down by making them safe for the woman.
 
minnie616 said:
Legalizaling abortions will make them safer.
There are many doctors across boarders that will help make them safer.

There are UN organizations that will help the teens get safe abortions and will help bring the numbers of unsafe abortions down by making them safe for the woman.
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Wow, so what makes abortions safer is access to trained medical staff and proper methods. Gee, what a shock.
 
spud_meister said:
Wow, so what makes abortions safer is access to trained medical staff and proper methods. Gee, what a shock.
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Even Peru has hospitals and doctors but abortions are illegal.

Many teens could be saved if abortions were legal in many of South American countries.

The maternal death rate in Peru has decreased but is still very high.

In 2010, the lifetime risk of maternal death in Peru was 1 in 570

In 1990 the estimate was 1 in 120.
 
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spud_meister said:
Wow, so what makes abortions safer is access to trained medical staff and proper methods.
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Which is something you ONLY get with LEGAL abortions. If you recall, when abortions were illegal here in the states, women commonly died from them because the law forced them into unsanitary and dangerous procedures. There is no place on this planet where the right money can't get you good quality medical care but there's a lot of places where religious men prevent women having access to it. Legal abortion isn't a panacea, it's one of a hundred things that women deserve in a civil society. I think you start with the right to birth control, though, because it's about the fundamental right to one's own body and life. That is a foundational component of human rights.

There is no one right that women can earn that would magically change things but, in terms of actually improving their lives, GIVING them their lives is a start.
 
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