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Why do some pro lifers hate it [W:295]

Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Slingshot Bob said:
Got to get me some of those zefs, need me some catfish bait, the river is up!
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So you deny that the gestational stages are zygote/embryo/fetus? (aka ZEF)? Or do you have an actual point to make?
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Peter King said:
Sure, I am bigoted just because you have a totally illogical view on the abortion issue, got it. It is of course utter nonsense but that has never stopped you before so why would it stop you know from making false statements about fellow posters.

And again, you say killed, I say aborted. Yours is an highly personal outrage view on the process of abortion, I use abortion because that is the medical procedure it is. Afterwards the aborted embryo or fetus will no longer be able to continue growing/gestating and will subsequently "be no longer alive".
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Sounds like a way to avoid the word killed to me.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Phys251 said:
I need to know what your personal definition of the word "extremist" is before I can answer that question. If it has to do simply with positions, then yes, such a person would be considered an extremist, simply because that's about as far as one can go on the pro-choice spectrum. But if it has to do with how one advocates for those positions, then no, simply holding said views would not be enough to qualify.
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Im asking YOU so my definition is meaningless. So when you are ready simply answer both questions yes or no.

Phys251 said:
And that, Layla, is where you and I disagree. What did we hear from the pro-life side when an abortion clinic was attacked in Colorado Springs a couple years ago? Deafening silence. There was some condemnation against it, but it felt forced, and it was not universal among the Right. Same goes with prior attacks against other abortion clinics in the past, and the many, many threats of death and violence that abortion caregivers receive all the time. That ****'s on your side, Layla. Not all of y'all do it--in fact I think a clear majority don't. But it's a thing, it is there, and to be perfectly frank, we cannot have civil conversations about abortion itself until the extremists tone down the rhetoric and the occasional violence. Only those of y'all who are civil pro-lifers can help, because they sure aren't going to listen to us.
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There you go again, interjecting things that aren't actually being discussed and have no barring. Among my community attacks against abortion clinics are condemned by the vast majority. Heck I have spoke about it at length, your feelings about it being forced is just that your feelings. You wanting something to happen (a certain type of speaking out) in no way translate to support or not condemning it. Same can be said for anything a women does or a black person does that is negative. Wheres all the outrage and condemnation (to some made up standard). Its silly really. Many people don't go out of their way to condemn things that have nothign to do with them. Most people will speak about something when asked and typically those wanting to be asked are usually representative of the group either. I can name countless things I haven't spoken against to anybody but friends or people who directly ask me. What does tha mean? 100% nothing. Civil conversation is EASY among CIVIL people. ANybody that uses the excuse you are trying to use is part of the problem. Look at our conversation, its going just fine because we both ignore the whack jobs. Civil pro lifers can not really help that much when it comes to extremists because they are extremists and the view our civility and honest just as poorly as they view you. They are beyond help. Now back to what I actually said "They are laughed at for the dishonest, uncivil, insanity they are." (referring to the posts of a certain person) are majorly treated that way. Post history here proves that, those posts for the most part are not respected as honest, truthful or civil by the majority of people here including the majority or pro-lifers. It was ice talking to you but I have to go and probably wont be back for a while. I look forward to your answer which is based solely on your personal opinion.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

year2late said:
I have received backlash as well for referring to a fetus as a fetus.

The bottom line is that there are a group of pro-lifers that only want you to refer to the zygote, embryo, or fetus as a baby.

I respect that they perceive the prenatal human....the ZEF....to be a baby. But many do not.
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Probably has something to do with the fact that the same people will refuse to ever say baby and also want to make sure that said "SEF" should be allowed to be legally killed has something to do with it.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Henrin said:
Wrong. Throughout our entire life we are a member of the human race and thus always a human being.
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No, we are biologically and genetically human, but the a human being is generally a born individual of the human race. You know a man, woman or a child. A zygote might be human but it does not mean it is a human being nor is it a person with personhood rights. Because that is the issue.

Henrin said:
Then you guys need to do a better job of presenting your argument because from where I sit all see from you guys is a constant attempt to declare that the unborn is lesser and not worthy of consideration. According to the argument you guys present is by all accounts nothing more and nothing less than what the woman considers it. If she values it then you stand besides her, and if she thinks it is filth that is just a "clump of cells" then you stand beside her. This is because your side doesn't really value anything but her opinion and what she thinks. The unborn doesn't really come into the equation because to your side it is nothing of value.

Also, I'm way past the point of desiring to want to deal with the absurd bull**** about how I have to support government welfare if I care about human life. I will not be addressing that point in any depth.
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This is about right, and while a zygote may not be unworthy of consideration, I do not have the right to determine that for someone else. That is the issue.

And government protection of children is a huge issue, because if you only care about fetal rights as a society, it is a sad state of affairs IMHO. You can have your opinion on that but I am of the opinion that children have rights and it is up to the parents in conjunction with society and the government to make sure those rights are respected.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Slingshot Bob said:
My only point is to use sarcasm to illustrate how casual pro choice people treat life.
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I treat people with great respect and care, pro-choice people are very caring. To claim we treat life "casually" is nonsense.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Peter King said:
No, we are biologically and genetically human, but the a human being is generally a born individual of the human race. You know a man, woman or a child. A zygote might be human but it does not mean it is a human being nor is it a person with personhood rights. Because that is the issue.
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Cute, but wrong.

Human being - any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species.


This is about right, and while a zygote may not be unworthy of consideration, I do not have the right to determine that for someone else. That is the issue.
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And the reason you have the position you do is because you see it of no value. The two things are connected like I said.

And government protection of children is a huge issue, because if you only care about fetal rights as a society, it is a sad state of affairs IMHO. You can have your opinion on that but I am of the opinion that children have rights and it is up to the parents in conjunction with society and the government to make sure those rights are respected.
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Protection of children deals with rights, which has nothing to do with government welfare. I'm not against protecting the rights of children.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Henrin said:
Sounds like a way to avoid the word killed to me.
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Because it is not killed, it's food source is taken away and it has no way to sustain life so death in inevitable. That is a personal choice.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Peter King said:
Because it is not killed, it's food source is taken away and it has no way to sustain life so death in inevitable. That is a personal choice.
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Jesus ****ing Christ. If I actually gave that the correct response I would probably kill myself with how hard I would have to facedesk. Taking away the means in which something uses to survive will kill it.
 
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Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Peter King said:
I treat people with great respect and care, pro-choice people are very caring. To claim we treat life "casually" is nonsense.
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I kinda agree, I was at the river today, sitting down on the ground , I looked down and saw about (?) 80,000 ants moving away from rising waters, they were moving larvae.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Henrin said:
Cute, but wrong.

Human being - any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species.
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Actually I was right. A human being is a human man, woman or child. And as a child is defined as a born individual (according to dictionary I use, which is the English dictionary, Cambridge).

So we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one because I know I will not be able to convince you of the of my POV and you will also fail to convince of your POV.

Henrin said:
And the reason you have the position you do is because you see it of no value. The two things are connected like I said.
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I see value but I cannot dictate other people to have the same opinion as me. It is not me to determine the value of the unborn of other people.

Henrin said:
Protection of children deals with rights. I'm not against protecting the rights of children.
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And I am not against the protection of the unborn, but not in the first part of the pregnancy because at that stage the rights of the woman is paramount. I have no issue in putting the abortion limit at 16 weeks, but until that moment I think it is up to a woman to decide what she wants to do with that pregnancy. I hope that people keep it (if they have the ability to care for that child) but I do not want to dictate what they have to decide. That is between them and their conscience/beliefs/personal views.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Henrin said:
Jesus ****ing Christ. If I actually gave that the correct response I would probably kill myself with how hard I would have to facedesk. Taking away the means in which something uses to survive will kill it.
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What, I have to obey/follow how you describe abortion? It may be that I have gotten a bit tired of that word (killing) after the cavalcade of naming abortion "aggressive killing/murder/homicide/etc. etc. etc. (not your fault, I know)

Because whether you call it killing, or aborting, the result of an abortion is the same, it is the end of the embryo. Why is it so important that I use the word killing embryo's rather than aborting embryo's?

The disagreement stems from the whole issue why people have such differing opinions about abortion. Pro-lifers see it as killing a human being/person who has the right to live. Where as I from a pro-choice point of view think that a woman has an abortion in which a zygote (plan B), embryo or fetus is aborted because the woman has the right to make a medical decision about wanting to remain pregnant or not.

I understand that it angers you, but that is the disconnect between a pro-life point of view and a pro-choice point of view.

For example if someone who is pregnant gets kicked in the stomach and looses her embryo/fetus, than I have no problem saying that the fetus was killed by this guy. Nobody has the right to end a wanted pregnancy, there I have no problem saying killed (because there it is correct with how I as a Dutch person use that term, killing). Just call me a crazy Dutch person, but that is how we in Dutch use the word killing, it is usually always a violent and often illegal act.

Example, with the fire in London, a US paper/UK paper would write "79 killed in London fire". Whereas in the Netherlands that headline would be "79 people died in a London fire". We do not use kill that much. I don't know how to explain it. If a US paper says, a man was found and he was most likely killed, a Dutch newspaper would write "om het leven gebracht" which may mean killed, but if you translate it it says "his life may have been taken".
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Peter King said:
Also, there is a huge difference between being biologically human and being a human being/someone who has personhood rights.
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One is objective and scientific, the other is legal and subjective.

Subjectively, you want some human beings to be denied personhood. This stance is against human rights and against equality.

Phys251 said:
No no no no no. You don't get to shrug off your acceptance of some forms of racism
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I didn't assert any "acceptance of racism."

You, Jay, are in zero position to lecture others about right and wrong.
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I'm in a very good position to lecture others about exactly that, particularly people so amoral as to make arguments in favor of killing innocent human beings. :shrug:

Nobody should take you seriously when you tell such bald-faced lies.
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[citation needed]

Has never happened. You, on the other hand...

You deliberately and intentionally choose not to understand why our side believes what it believes.
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"Your side" continuously asserts nonsense completely at odds with science and reality; there can't be anything there to "understand" until your peer group decides to speak in English about events on planet Earth.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Peter King said:
1. there is no issue of politically incorrectness by using an acronym
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Naked bigotry like yours is not a matter for "political correctness." There's nothing subtle about it, it's direct and obvious and hateful and ugly.


Political correctness is about niceties and subtleties - it's an insipid encroachment on free speech to avoid offending those looking for something offensive and willing to make something up.

Political correctness is not about things like the casual use of slurs. There's nothing to make up there, there's no question to any reasonable person at that point.


2. we are not bigoted purely by using that acronym
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I mean your whole position is one in favor of bigotry and discrimination, so... There's so much more you and your peers do to demonstrate your hatred of the unborn, this slur is just one thing among many.

3. you pointing out how ugly and disgusting something is? :lamo Sorry, but that is the pot calling the kettle black, as the proverbial idiom goes
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I mean in this case, as in so many others, wrong. If you are a black kettle in this scenario, then I am the color of snow.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

JayDubya said:
One is objective and scientific, the other is legal and subjective.

Subjectively, you want some human beings to be denied personhood. This stance is against human rights and against equality.
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No, you want to subjectively give personhood rights to a ZEF that does not have them to being with. Your stance is an attack on women's rights.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

LaylaWindu said:
Really? So those (while few) that claim the believe that no stages of the ZEF are human adj or noun are not extremists? If they believe in and try to sell proven lies I'd say they are. What about those that support abortion in any situation AND any time frame. Meaning they support a women just deciding they want to abort because they changed their mind at 8months, 3 weeks and 6 days. Yes I know abortions like that don't generally happen but I am asking about people who support that. I'd call them extremists.
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Actually , I have never heard of an 8 month abortion for any reason.
It would have to be extremely ,extremely , rare and it would not be an elective abortion.

In fact abortions past 24 weeks gestation are extremely rare in the US. An abortion past 24 weeks is dangerous to the woman's life.
In Total 50 US states about 100 abortions past 24 weeks gestation take place.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

JayDubya said:
Naked bigotry like yours is not a matter for "political correctness." There's nothing subtle about it, it's direct and obvious and hateful and ugly.


Political correctness is about niceties and subtleties - it's an insipid encroachment on free speech to avoid offending those looking for something offensive and willing to make something up.

Political correctness is not about things like the casual use of slurs. There's nothing to make up there, there's no question to any reasonable person at that point.
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Your response again is typical of the utter utter utter nonsense you always post, your entire accusation that I am a bigot is just pathetic. And of course like always a pack of lies..

And that is all I have to say about your :bs

JayDubya said:
I mean your whole position is one in favor of bigotry and discrimination, so... There's so much more you and your peers do to demonstrate your hatred of the unborn, this slur is just one thing among many.
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and the :bs train continues.

Acronyms are not slurs, which is something any sensible person realizes.

JayDubya said:
I mean in this case, as in so many others, wrong. If you are a black kettle in this scenario, then I am the color of snow.
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The color or snow :lamo

223963-bigthumbnail.jpg

What a total and utter nonsensical statement, totally devoid of any sense of reality.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Slingshot Bob said:
Nahh, just an inconvineant late period, nothing more. Just a mess to scrape out as soon as conviniant.
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At some point the ZEF becomes a bit more than that. But early on, it certainly is little more than a late period, especially before it takes root.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that a fetus of about 20 weeks is in the beginning stages of developing rights. It still has fewer rights than its host, but some rights should be bestowed upon it once it becomes viable. This is especially true if it is healthy and normal.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

Slingshot Bob said:
My only point is to use sarcasm to illustrate how casual pro choice people treat life.
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I disagree. I am pro choice. I do not treat life casually.
During my marriage of over 40 years , I had 6 pregnancies, 2 miscarriages and my husband and I have 4 children , all whom are grown now with homes of their own. Three of our children married and my husband and I have 4 wonderful grandchildren.

All of my pregnancies were high risk pregnancies.

During my first pregnancy I became very ill because of pregnancy complications. My kidneys were damaged and I became so anemic my doctor was afraid I might bleed to death during delivery.

He had the delivery room set up ready for a complete blood transfusion and when they wheeled me into delivery , I did not know if I would live to see the baby.

After my health issues during my pregnancies, I support the pregnant woman's choice to make her own health decisions regarding pregnancy.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

minnie616 said:
Actually , I have never heard of an 8 month abortion for any reason.
It would have to be extremely ,extremely , rare and it would not be an elective abortion.

In fact abortions past 24 weeks gestation are extremely rare in the US. An abortion past 24 weeks is dangerous to the woman's life.
In Total 50 US states about 100 abortions past 24 weeks gestation take place.
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To late to edit should read about 100 abortions a year occur past 24 weeks in the US.(the total US )
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

LaylaWindu said:
I'm a prolifer and like any group, single members even in numbers do not speak or represent the whole group. The majority of pro lifers I know have no problem with the acronym ZEF only extremist and radical types that typical aren't really even for the cause or educated about it. They mostly just want to fight.
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I don't want to fight. I also don't want to be branded as an extremist or a radical or a whack-job or dishonest or a snowflake, and you've used all of these terms in this thread.

Again, if a civil discourse is what's desired, not branding those with whom you disagree using terms such as the ones you've used would be a beginning.

If such a discourse is not what you want, then just keep branding those with whom you disagree as extremists and whack-jobs and allow the Abortion forum to mainly remain as a pro-choice echo chamber except for those foolish enough to dare to post an opinion that is contrary to yours.
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

LaylaWindu said:
Really? So those (while few) that claim the believe that no stages of the ZEF are human adj or noun are not extremists? If they believe in and try to sell proven lies I'd say they are. What about those that support abortion in any situation AND any time frame. Meaning they support a women just deciding they want to abort because they changed their mind at 8months, 3 weeks and 6 days. Yes I know abortions like that don't generally happen but I am asking about people who support that. I'd call them extremists.
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I do not know of any body (on either side) that believes that the zygote, embryo, or fetus are not human (adj). It would be interesting to hear their rationale.:shock: Or pehaps it was the cat typing on the computer.:lamo
 
Re: Why do some pro lifers hate it

nota bene said:
I don't want to fight. I also don't want to be branded as an extremist or a radical or a whack-job or dishonest or a snowflake, and you've used all of these terms in this thread.

Again, if a civil discourse is what's desired, not branding those with whom you disagree using terms such as the ones you've used would be a beginning.

If such a discourse is not what you want, then just keep branding those with whom you disagree as extremists and whack-jobs and allow the Abortion forum to mainly remain as a pro-choice echo chamber except for those foolish enough to dare to post an opinion that is contrary to yours.
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It is funny....don't you find it can just as easily be branded as a pro-life echo chamber? It is a matter of perspective.

Here is where you will get no trouble from me.

I usually am fine with prolifers calling a fetus a baby and I usually know what they mean. That the word has a different meaning for me, and do not expect me to use it.

If I am fine with prolifers using the term "baby"...I expect that the actual terms zygote, embryo, or fetus should be ok with your side- including the acronym. I do not expect you to use the terms.

It is a two way street.

Personally, I am against abortion. I think these arguments are tedious.

I wish that we could focus on the tried and true pragmatic ways to decrease abortion rates.

1) Making the most effective birth control (long term types) more accessible, available, and cheaper. Currently those most at risk for abortion are too rich for Medicaid, too poor for insurance. And just cannot afford the high cost.

2)Turning an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one. That is a tougher get because most women who choose abortion are socioeconomically disadvantaged and are already struggling to care for children at home.

What is not pragmatic? Slutshaming and finger wagging.

Adoption has possibilities, but in general women clearly and emphatically do not consider adoption a choice...not sure how that can be turned around. And frankly, even being pregnant can put an already disadvantaged person into even a worse situation - she may not be able to get enough shifts while pregnant to pay rent, etc. On top of that her access to health care may be poor due to needing to access Medicaid rather than more substantial insurance.
 
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