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Is Abortion a Moral Right?

Please do not delude yourself. The only thing if anything that your posts can point to is uneducated, primitive, belligerent thinking that has and always will leave you among the lunatic fringe.

LOL and once again you utterly fail to even TRY to defend your stupid talking point, which once again is dismissed as the utter trash it was already known to be.

Leaving the rest of your words to just become white noise. :lol: Whenever you again talk about the Constitution, it is important to remember how badly you failed here.
 
If a human child will always be feral without interference, how did we get to where we are?
SEE BELOW; there is an extremely logical answer

The statement and reality contradicts.
ONLY TO SOMEONE WHO LACKS ALL THE RELEVANT DATA. See below.

Someone had to learn it to teach it.
PERSONHOOD IS NOT LEARNED. It is a side-effect of learning other things, as explained below.

That means somewhere down the road we as humans learned something without being taught it.
NOPE. Because personhood is a mental status, not a learned thing, as I'm about to explain (wanted to get through that other stuff above first).

The first relevant Fact is, most animals have some built-in adaptability, allowing them to better-handle the environments in which they find themselves. For example if a boy is raised at high altitude, he will have a greater lung capacity and a higher red-blood-cell count than if he had been raised at sea level. "Genetic drift" tends to happen when some group, originally adapted for one environment, moves to and stays in the another somewhat different environment for a long time. Think of the skin-color of humans, for example, very much lighter in the Northern temperate zone, than in the tropics where humans first evolved. But here only adaptability matters, not genetic drift. For a specific example of human adaptability, see the story of Tori Allen.

The next relevant Fact is, many animals can learn some "abstract" things, like when we give them names, they can learn to respond to those names. With our large brains, humans can learn many more abstract things than most other animals, but that doesn't mean they are severely restricted. See the part of this video about a dog's ability.

The next relevant Fact is, the paleontological record clearly shows that humans have been discovering and inventing stuff for literally millions of year (from crude stone tools to fire to basket weaving and more). The KEY fact is that the total knowledge of every human tribe tended to **accumulate** as the centuries went by. This means later generations had to learn more stuff than early generations. That "stuff" would include relevant abstractions, like names for things. Now recall the Eskimos, famous for having a lot of words to describe different types of snow --do you think early tribespeople would fail to invent names for the many hundreds of types of plants and animals (including bugs) in their tropical environment? LOGICALLY (and eventually), the total amount of stuff a child needed to learn became problematic....

EXCEPT for that first fact mentioned above, about animal adaptability. Under the stress of being inundated with abstractions, the brain adapts by literally growing some extra processing power. It is **that** extra brainpower that essentially defines the difference between a feral human and a human person. That's the brainpower that let us invent true language and all the arts roughly 50,000-70,000 years ago; with that brainpower we can manipulate abstractions like almost no other animal on Earth (except maybe dolphins, which also Nurture their young quite thoroughly).

Humanity basically bootstrapped itself from clever-animal status to personhood status, with its abstraction-manipulating capability, **accidentally**. And all cultures since have so-routinely inundated their offspring with abstractions that (1) it is very rare for a child to "escape the system" and end up feral, and (2) most folks think that what we consider "normal" human mental development happens automatically, when actually it doesn't. I should point out that the potential for this extra brainpower (as a consequence of adaptability) has existed for literally megayears; see the stories of Koko the Gorilla and Chantek the Orangutan.
 
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What is so important about life, or even human life for that matter?

I can't stand hearing the mantra... but it is human. Explain why that matters?

In the state of Texas the human life of the mothers to be does not seems to matter at all . See below.

Study: Texas has highest maternal mortality rate in developed world | abc13.com


AUSTIN, Texas -- Lawmakers in Texas largely failed to take any significant action to address the state's skyrocketing rate of pregnancy-related deaths just months after researchers found it to be the highest in not only the U.S., but the developed world.

Legislators introduced proposals to address the issue after a University of Maryland-led study found that the state's maternal mortality rate doubled between 2010 and 2012. But several key measures didn't even make it to a vote, falling victim to Republican infighting over other issues.

"We had a chance to move the needle and we really failed to do so," said state Sen. Lois Kolkhorst, a Republican from the town of Brenham, west of Houston. "Certainly, as we develop in medicine, we can do better to take care of women in today's society versus past societies. I'm very disappointed."

Because this year's session has ended, lawmakers will have to wait until they reconvene in 2019 to address the issue.

Kolkhorst introduced a measure with wide support that would have extended the life of Texas' maternal mortality task force to 2023 from its current 2019 end date, allowing the committee of doctors and behavioral specialists to analyze more closely the specific causes of pregnancy-related deaths.

The task force formed in 2013 to study and combat what state lawmakers already perceived as a rising maternal mortality rate. Then last summer, the University of Maryland study found that Texas had the highest maternal mortality rate in the U.S. The study also found that the U.S. rate was higher than all other Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development countries reporting maternal mortality data, except for Mexico. That study offered no explanation for the reason.

Further research would help understand, "is it hemorrhaging, is it post-partum depression, is it aftercare?" said Kolkhorst. "Are there things we could do pre-birth that would help with post-birth?"

The extension of the task force is "vital for us to be able to understand the causes and preventive measures" of so many Texas mothers' fatalities, said Lisa Hollier, the task force's chairwoman.
 
Yes, no matter what, a human is a human, no matter how small. Human life begins at the moment of conception, according to doctors. I'm all for birth control and condoms, but abortion should be federally outlawed, because it is blatant murder.
 
I've been reading and listening to a lot of different things lately that really invoke some thinking. The question "Is abortion a moral right?" really stands out.

But to really get into that, I think the you have to ask the question, is the fetus inside a woman, no matter how far along, a life?

Yes, no matter what, a human is a human, no matter how small. Human life begins at the moment of conception, according to doctors. I'm all for birth control and condoms, but abortion should be federally outlawed, because it is blatant murder.
 
YES IT CAN. What is not right is Stupid Prejudice!


TOTALLY TRUE OF ABORTION. The problem is the Stupid Lie of claiming an unborn human is more than a mere-animal entity, like a rat is a mere-animal entity, and every 100% human cell in a hydatidiform mole is a mere-animal entity. Neither the rat nor the unborn human nor the hydatidiform mole qualifies as an "anyone else".


TRUE.


FALSE. The woman has rights, including the right to abort an unwanted pregnancy.

You don't understand the difference between a right and a privilege. And you don't understand it in CAPITAL LETTERS.
 
You don't understand the difference between a right and a privilege.
FALSE. Everyone has the right to do things to their own bodies. See tattoos and piercings for just two types of ways to exercise that right. If a human becomes infested with one or more parasites, not only does that human have the right to rid self of the infestation, it is generally expected that that person will rid self of the infestation. And since The Fact Is, an unborn human ACTS worse than any typical parasite, It Logically Follows that a pregnant woman has the RIGHT, not just a privilege, to rid herself of it, if that is what she wants to do.
 
Yes, no matter what, a human is a human, no matter how small. Human life begins at the moment of conception, according to doctors. I'm all for birth control and condoms, but abortion should be federally outlawed, because it is blatant murder.

Thank all you are not in charge.
 
Yes, no matter what, a human is a human, no matter how small.
ABSOLUTELY TRUE, AND ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS. I wrote this specifically to help educate those who don't understand what "human life" really is, and don't realize how idiotic are the arguments that are based on that lack of understanding.

Human life begins at the moment of conception, according to doctors.
AND THE SCIENTISTS, TOO. But that Fact doesn't make human life better than, say, rat life (which also begins at conception).

I'm all for birth control and condoms,
OKAY!

but abortion should be federally outlawed, because it is blatant murder.
IGNORANTLY FALSE. "Murder" is a word that only applies to killing persons. The **concepts** of "human" and "person" are **provably** totally separate and distinct concepts, having nothing to do with each other. For example, a "hydatidiform mole" is a 100% human entity that originates with a conception-event, just like an ordinary human fetus, but not even the most vehement of abortion opponents will claim a hydatidiform mole is a person. THEREFORE, just because something is human, that doesn't automatically mean it is a person. MEANWHILE, human history is chock-full of imaginings of non-human person-class entities, from angels to elves to Chinese dragons to Arabian djinns to extraterrestrial alien beings, and even including modern data about dolphins. THEREFORE, just because some entity might qualify as a person, that doesn't mean it has to be human.

The very best thing about the US Constitution is that it uses the word "person" throughout, and doesn't use the word "human" even once. That means the document is ready to accommodate interstellar immigrants, should any happen to arrive.
 
FALSE. Everyone has the right to do things to their own bodies. See tattoos and piercings for just two types of ways to exercise that right. If a human becomes infested with one or more parasites, not only does that human have the right to rid self of the infestation, it is generally expected that that person will rid self of the infestation. And since The Fact Is, an unborn human ACTS worse than any typical parasite, It Logically Follows that a pregnant woman has the RIGHT, not just a privilege, to rid herself of it, if that is what she wants to do.

You refer to an unborn "human." You'd better clear that up. Killing a human is illegal and that makes killing one legally a privilege. You would do better to call a fetus a parasite. Then your concept would be accurate and you could claim a right.
 
You refer to an unborn "human."
IT IS TRUTH. It also doesn't matter. If you don't fully understand what "human life" is, then read this.

You'd better clear that up.
I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING. A lot of anti-abortion arguments are fundamentally based on Stupid Prejudice about the word "human", and that Stupid Prejudice needs to be exposed as widely as possible, to shame the abortion opponents who spout those totally worthless arguments.

Killing a human is illegal
UTTERLY FALSE, SINCE ABORTION IS LEGAL. Plus manicures/pedicures are even more widely legal, and routinely kill human life. Plus, the killing of 100% human hydatidiform moles (which originate in conception events just like ordinary human fetuses) is not only legal everywhere, it is expected to be done.

and that makes killing one legally a privilege.
FALSE. See above. What is illegal is the killing of a human **being**, a human person. But not every entity that is human qualifies as a "being". While JayDubya in particular is fond of calling unborn humans "human beings", every time I ask him (or any other abortion opponent) to prove that an unborn human qualifies as a "being", a person, such that it might deserve the label "human being", the abortion opponent always fails to do that simple thing. Therefore they are simply LYING, when they call unborn human NON-beings "human beings".

You would do better to call a fetus a parasite.
FALSE. Parasites have at least one specific characteristic that distinguishes them from other types of mere-animal entities. They are always a different species than their victims. However, that aspect of the definition of the word cannot prevent some entity from ACTING like a parasite acts --a thing unborn humans do quite horribly, even worse than ordinary parasites (ordinary parasites don't infuse addictive and mind-altering substances into the bodies of their victims).

Then your concept would be accurate and you could claim a right.
FALSE, as explained in detail in both this message and my prior message to you.
 
LOL and once again you utterly fail to even TRY to defend your stupid talking point
In order for me to defend anything it has to be challenged by something rational and intelligent. Your ignorant uneducated rant does not qualify for that.
 
In order for me to defend anything it has to be challenged by something rational and intelligent. Your ignorant uneducated rant does not qualify for that.

It was very rational.

You made a claim that abortion must be legal because it is not mentioned in the Constitution. Rape is not mentioned in the Constitution.

Unless you will similarly argue that rape must be legal, then you must abandon your poorly constructed argument.

:lol:
 
The police power of states is limited only by the Fourteenth Amendment, and it is up to the people of each state to say what its police power is intended for. Neither you nor anyone else gets to tell the people of any other state what does and does not advance their well-being.
Yet segregation was ended and interracial marriage was upheld. You think that if enough people in some state wish to reverse that they can?
 
Yet segregation was ended and interracial marriage was upheld. You think that if enough people in some state wish to reverse that they can?

Of course not. It is clear the Fourteenth Amendment was aimed at preventing states from discriminating against blacks. There is no evidence whatever that it was also meant to protect anyone's right to have or perform an abortion. That notion is purely something the majority of the Court concocted from thin air in Roe v. Wade.
 
Of course not. It is clear the Fourteenth Amendment was aimed at preventing states from discriminating against blacks.
Yet that word does not appear anywhere in the text. Moreover the point is that just because a majority of the population of any state would wish to abrogate or curtail freedoms of the people of that state they can not without just cause and I repeat, there is no just cause to ban abortion.

There is no evidence whatever that it was also meant to protect anyone's right to have or perform an abortion.
It is not that anyone can have the right to have or perform abortion as much as there is no basis to ban it.
 
SEE BELOW; there is an extremely logical answer


ONLY TO SOMEONE WHO LACKS ALL THE RELEVANT DATA. See below.


PERSONHOOD IS NOT LEARNED. It is a side-effect of learning other things, as explained below.


NOPE. Because personhood is a mental status, not a learned thing, as I'm about to explain (wanted to get through that other stuff above first).

The first relevant Fact is, most animals have some built-in adaptability, allowing them to better-handle the environments in which they find themselves. For example if a boy is raised at high altitude, he will have a greater lung capacity and a higher red-blood-cell count than if he had been raised at sea level. "Genetic drift" tends to happen when some group, originally adapted for one environment, moves to and stays in the another somewhat different environment for a long time. Think of the skin-color of humans, for example, very much lighter in the Northern temperate zone, than in the tropics where humans first evolved. But here only adaptability matters, not genetic drift. For a specific example of human adaptability, see the story of Tori Allen.

The next relevant Fact is, many animals can learn some "abstract" things, like when we give them names, they can learn to respond to those names. With our large brains, humans can learn many more abstract things than most other animals, but that doesn't mean they are severely restricted. See the part of this video about a dog's ability.

The next relevant Fact is, the paleontological record clearly shows that humans have been discovering and inventing stuff for literally millions of year (from crude stone tools to fire to basket weaving and more). The KEY fact is that the total knowledge of every human tribe tended to **accumulate** as the centuries went by. This means later generations had to learn more stuff than early generations. That "stuff" would include relevant abstractions, like names for things. Now recall the Eskimos, famous for having a lot of words to describe different types of snow --do you think early tribespeople would fail to invent names for the many hundreds of types of plants and animals (including bugs) in their tropical environment? LOGICALLY (and eventually), the total amount of stuff a child needed to learn became problematic....

EXCEPT for that first fact mentioned above, about animal adaptability. Under the stress of being inundated with abstractions, the brain adapts by literally growing some extra processing power. It is **that** extra brainpower that essentially defines the difference between a feral human and a human person. That's the brainpower that let us invent true language and all the arts roughly 50,000-70,000 years ago; with that brainpower we can manipulate abstractions like almost no other animal on Earth (except maybe dolphins, which also Nurture their young quite thoroughly).

Humanity basically bootstrapped itself from clever-animal status to personhood status, with its abstraction-manipulating capability, **accidentally**. And all cultures since have so-routinely inundated their offspring with abstractions that (1) it is very rare for a child to "escape the system" and end up feral, and (2) most folks think that what we consider "normal" human mental development happens automatically, when actually it doesn't. I should point out that the potential for this extra brainpower (as a consequence of adaptability) has existed for literally megayears; see the stories of Koko the Gorilla and Chantek the Orangutan.

You kind of make my point. Yes, sure we learn things from genetics and the such, but the things that are passed down had to be learned from someone before us, all the way back to the first people.
 
Yet that word does not appear anywhere in the text. Moreover the point is that just because a majority of the population of any state would wish to abrogate or curtail freedoms of the people of that state they can not without just cause and I repeat, there is no just cause to ban abortion.

It is not that anyone can have the right to have or perform abortion as much as there is no basis to ban it.

There is no constitutional ground for requiring any more than a rational basis for any state abortion law. That constitutional test, which applies to countless ordinary state laws, is purposely very deferential out of respect for the constitutional separation of powers. The challenger has the burden of proving the government action is not rationally related to any legitimate government purpose, and that has always been next to impossible to do. For two hundred years--and for more than one hundred years after the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified--states made laws restricting or even banning abortion, and no constitutional scholar questioned their authority to do so. Nor is there any basis for questioning it today.
 
There is no constitutional ground for requiring any more than a rational basis for any state abortion law. That constitutional test, which applies to countless ordinary state laws, is purposely very deferential out of respect for the constitutional separation of powers. The challenger has the burden of proving the government action is not rationally related to any legitimate government purpose, and that has always been next to impossible to do. For two hundred years--and for more than one hundred years after the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified--states made laws restricting or even banning abortion, and no constitutional scholar questioned their authority to do so. Nor is there any basis for questioning it today.
And countless times laws have been found unconstitutional too.
Just because there was no challenge it does not mean that the basis is valid and again there is no rational basis for banning abortion.
No state recognizes a fetus as a legal entity, so the best that can be done is regulating a medical procedure, which everyone agrees that states can do and do so on the ration basis of ensuring the safety of the public.
 
You kind of make my point.
NOT THE SAME POINT. We know full well that many larger mammals can discover things all by themselves, and also can teach their offspring. Humans were no different millions of years ago. One of the things that made us different, though, was the helplessness of our infants, compared to other animals. When you consider that a tribe could not exist without some degree of cooperation, one way to cooperate would be for someone besides the mom to sometimes look after the kids. That would allow human kids to (uniquely) learn stuff from more than one adult....

Yes, sure we learn things from genetics and the such,
HOW IS THAT RELEVANT TO WAY BACK THEN?

but the things that are passed down had to be learned from someone
NOT ALWAYS. Humans are quite capable of discovering things by themselves. Anything you discover is something no one taught you.
ALSO, REMEMBER THE TIME FRAME. The earliest of stone tools are several million years old. The span of time between then and now can accommodate quite a large number of discoveries, even if several years passed between each discovery. That huge span of time has allowed humans to have used fire to cook food for so long that our genetics favors eating cooked food (our intestinal tracts are something like 2 feet shorter than they would otherwise be, because cooking makes it easier for food to be digested).

before us, all the way back to the first people.
WHICH LEAVES YOU THE ONE WITH THE INCONSISTENCY, since you have not explained where the first bits of knowledge ever came from, for the earliest of humans to pass on to their offspring. My argument is solid, because it is a well-known fact that humans are discoverers of knowledge. And I'm specifically talking about the total/increasing accumulation of human knowledge (small though it might have been compared to what we know today) getting taught by ancient humans to their youngsters --and what happened as a consequence of that, thanks to Natural adaptivity.
 
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