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Is Abortion a Moral Right?

minnie616 said:
I added the list to post #44
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I read your paultry list. Do you think that compared to the magnitude of sects across this country who find your thinking absolutely disgusting? I could not print the number of sects in this post that find your beliefs to be way out of line because the setup in this forum would not allow me.

You are in a very small minority. Thank G-d. For there is still hope that my offspring will have a chance of surviving.
 
DashingAmerican said:
If we could remove a fetus and transplant it into an artificial womb, would you support abortion?
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Are you asking if a woman was obligated to have a MAJOR medical or perhaps a major surgical procedure to implant her fetus into a artificial womb if she did not wish to remain pregnant"

No. Hell no.

I am curious. In your artificial womb land....who is paying for the major extraction and implantation procedures as well as cost of maintenance of the fetus in this artificial womb?

This is of course assuming you have adoptive parents for each and every artificial womb inhabitant.

Seriously, plant your feet back on the ground.
 
year2late said:
Are you asking if a woman was obligated to have a MAJOR medical or perhaps a major surgical procedure to implant her fetus into a artificial womb if she did not wish to remain pregnant"

No. Hell no.

I am curious. In your artificial womb land....who is paying for the major extraction and implantation procedures as well as cost of maintenance of the fetus in this artificial womb?

This is of course assuming you have adoptive parents for each and every artificial womb inhabitant.

Seriously, plant your feet back on the ground.
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It was a hypothetical. I never implied the difficulty of the procedure and have already addressed the cost.
 
DashingAmerican said:
But it has the potential to be more, what is left that the older generation can do? Many would say they've already made a mess of this planet.
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Please... when an argument Straw Man's into attempting to make an analogy between old people and a fetus the argument is already over.
 
minnie616 said:
We value the life of the fetus but the woman is a soul and the Bible teaches us that ensoulment happens with the breath of life at birth.



The Breath of Life

In the Bible when God created Adam God :
“breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7).

Also, these verses in Genesis (6:17; 7:15, 22) refer to the “breath of life,”

And in Job “The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life” (Job 33:4).


More Bible verses:

By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Psalms 33:6



9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army...

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

Ezekiel 37 9-10, 13-14
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Exodus 21:22-25
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Please... when an argument Straw Man's into attempting to make an analogy between old people and a fetus the argument is already over.
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Was simply commenting on your worry of paying for said hypothetical and pointing out that you are already paying for old people, though I will admit it was definitely a straw man.
 
vesper said:
LOL not surprised you of all people would have a problem with my "stats". That's alright cause I know they are correct.

Stand guard at your station defending all abortions .

Those little lifes that were snuffed out because a mother didn't want them. Carry on while you speak of your church believing in God and promotes abortion. Marvelous.

S0metimes I ponder on the fact I reproduced two beautiful children who reproduced 6 beautiful grandchildren and left them this sh*t hole to deal with.

Society has become a sh*thole thanks to folks who have no morals
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Neither my church nor the RCRC promotes abortion .
We feel that When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual.

I have been happily married to love of my life ( my one and only) and we have been married for over 40 years. We have 4 beautiful children and 4 wonderful Grandchildren.
 
minnie616 said:
Neither my church nor the RCRC promotes abortion .
We feel that When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual.

I have been happily married to love of my life ( my one and only) and we have been married for over 40 years. We have 4 beautiful children and 4 wonderful Grandchildren.
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So if your "church" doesn't promote abortion why do you?

You know with all the latest scientific measures that these are genuine lives, hearts beating, etc.

How can you promote such a thing?

You have grandkids, how would like having a future grandkid end up being snuffed out because his mama didn't want him/her?
 
vesper said:
I read your paultry list. Do you think that compared to the magnitude of sects across this country who find your thinking absolutely disgusting? I could not print the number of sects in this post that find your beliefs to be way out of line because the setup in this forum would not allow me.

You are in a very small minority. Thank G-d. For there is still hope that my offspring will have a chance of surviving.
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The Jewish sects are small?

Even the Evanglisis were members of the RCRC and felt a fetus was not a soul until birth . Then in middle 1980s Falwell decided to join the Catholics and told the Evanglists they had been misreading the Bible .

In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: 'If a man kills any human life he will be put to death' (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.”

The magazine Christian Life agreed, insisting, “The Bible definitely pinpoints a difference in the value of a fetus and an adult.” And the Southern Baptist Convention passed a 1971 resolution affirming abortion should be legal not only to protect the life of the mother, but to protect her emotional health as well.
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My Take: When evangelicals were pro-choice ? CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs



Why does it matter that what evangelical leaders say is “the biblical view on abortion” was not a widespread interpretation until about 30 years ago?

For one thing, it’s harder to argue the Bible clearly teaches something when the overwhelming majority of its past interpreters didn’t read the Bible that way.

For another, it illustrates that evangelical leaders are happy to defend creative reinterpretations of the Bible when it fits with a socially conservative worldview — even while objecting to new interpretations of the Bible on, say, homosexuality, precisely because they are new. And for another, by looking at the history of how today’s “biblical view on abortion” arose, one can begin to see the worldview that made it possible.

In the process, it becomes apparent it is that unacknowledged worldview, and not the Bible, that evangelical opponents of abortion are actually defending.
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How Evangelicals Decided That Life Begins at Conception | HuffPost
 
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DashingAmerican said:
Exodus 21:22-25
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
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Yep, if she miscarries a fine is paid to the husband.

A fetus is a fine.
 
vesper said:
So if your "church" doesn't promote abortion why do you?

You know with all the latest scientific measures that these are genuine lives, hearts beating, etc.

How can you promote such a thing?

You have grandkids, how would like having a future grandkid end up being snuffed out because his mama didn't want him/her?
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For you Minnie, waiting on a response.
 
vesper said:
So if your "church" doesn't promote abortion why do you?

You know with all the latest scientific measures that these are genuine lives, hearts beating, etc.

How can you promote such a thing?

You have grandkids, how would like having a future grandkid end up being snuffed out because his mama didn't want him/her?
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I do not promote abortion, I promote birth control, sex education, and loving parents and families.

Abortions need to remain legal and safe for the women.

Now to answer your question...the decision to continue a pregnancy or have an abortion is up to the mother, her husband,and her faith.
 
minnie616 said:
I do not promote abortion, I promote birth control, sex education, and loving parents and families.

Abortions need to remain legal and safe for the women.

Now to answer your question...the decision to continue a pregnancy or have an abortion is up to the mother, her husband,and her faith.
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That's a lie, you have promoted abortion from the day I was aware of you on this forum.

That's a nice sweet take you gave there but dang that isn't what you have portrayed on this forum.

Wow just wow. What a bunch of ..........................................................nuff said.
 
vesper said:
No matter how big you want it to look Minnie it is still very small.
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It does not matter they are still mainline Christian churches.

We fought for the no co pay contraception that was a part of the ACA.

The mainline Protestants belief were a part of the Roe vs Wade decision in Part IX.

There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live' birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. [Footnote 56] It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. [Footnote 57] It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family.
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vesper said:
That's a lie, you have promoted abortion from the day I was aware of you on this forum.

That's a nice sweet take you gave there but dang that isn't what you have portrayed on this forum.

Wow just wow. What a bunch of ..........................................................nuff said.
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I promote birth control and sex education.
I value the woman as a living soul.
I promote loving mothers , and loving families.

I do not promote banning abortions.

Countries that ban abortions have a higher rate of abortions.

I want the numbers of abortions lowered.
 
vesper said:
That's a lie, you have promoted abortion from the day I was aware of you on this forum.

That's a nice sweet take you gave there but dang that isn't what you have portrayed on this forum.

....
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I am an active member the RCRC ( Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice).

"Beliefs about compassion and love central to all faiths motivate RCRC to advocate for reproductive freedom.

We support every person’s right to self-determination over their own bodies and reproductive lives. We also support access to sex education, family planning and contraception; affordable child care and health care; adoption services; adequate reproductive and general health care services and adequate insurance coverage for these services.

Based on our religious beliefs and our commitment to reproductive justice, we also champion a range of issues that impact families, family formation and the health and well being of communities."
 
The fetus is alive, of course, and a potential human being, and except where the life of the mother is in jeopardy, it is immoral to take the life of this potentential human being.

But everyone has a right to be immoral.

And so the legal right to an abortion must be maintained.

A fetus, though a potential human being and person, is parasitic on the parturient woman, and the moral choice to carry to term must be left to her

The choice is not her neighbor's or the government's to make. It's hers alone.
 
DashingAmerican said:
But it has the potential to be more, what is left that the older generation can do? Many would say they've already made a mess of this planet.
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Humans can only reach that potential if they're raised by other humans or otherwise you'll end up with feral children who are nearly like ordinary animals.
 
minnie616 said:
Your stats are wrong , that is what is wrong with the picture.

People hid unwed mothers before the 1970s.
Grandmothers often raised their grandchild as their own and the babies/child's older sister was actually the mother.

Or they sent pregnant daughters away to have the baby and give it up for adoption so it not recorded as a birth out of wedlock.
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Also, there were a lot of shotgun weddings. I'll bet the conceptions out of wedlock were a lot more than the births out of wedlock. (not including miscarriages)
 
Scrabaholic said:
Also, there were a lot of shotgun weddings. I'll bet the conceptions out of wedlock were a lot more than the births out of wedlock. (not including miscarriages)
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I was conceived in Oct, the wedding was in Feb. My Grandpa insisted he would not show up to the wedding because his son was such a disappointment, but did.
 
vesper said:
That's a lie, you have promoted abortion from the day I was aware of you on this forum.

That's a nice sweet take you gave there but dang that isn't what you have portrayed on this forum.

Wow just wow. What a bunch of ..........................................................nuff said.
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I've been here longer than you, and have never seen Minnie promote abortion. She promotes CHOICE.
 
DashingAmerican said:
It was a hypothetical and we've actually done it with sharks; not the same species, I'm aware, but still relevant.
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But the steps require killing the mother shark to remove the embryonic sharks not quite a month before birth.

Initially Otway and Ellis tried to keep embryos, one month away from birth, alive in small aquaria. But the wobbegongs died within a week. The artificial uterus they developed is essentially a complex aquarium, with air vents, bacterial filters, peristaltic pumps, observation ports, water exchange systems and a host of monitoring sensors. With this set up, Otway and Ellis brought six embryos to term. The sharks, taken from one euthanized female captured by divers, spent the final 18 days before birth in the artificial uterus.
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https://www.wired.com/2011/09/artificial-shark-uterus/
 
DashingAmerican said:
I've been reading and listening to a lot of different things lately that really invoke some thinking. The question "Is abortion a moral right?" really stands out.

But to really get into that, I think the you have to ask the question, is the fetus inside a woman, no matter how far along, a life?
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Unless women normally host the presence of a dead fetus then we have to assume it's alive.

Only by circumstance of birth do women possess the physical means to host the presence of a "live" co-conception, which can be sustained through a period of gestation and ultimately to give birth.

The moral question around reproduction is prior to co-conception.

The question is: Are woman "morally" (and/or legally) obligated to proliferate the species?

If an individual answers, "yes" to the above question then the next question should be "why?"followed by, "according to whom?"
 
DashingAmerican said:
It was a hypothetical. I never implied the difficulty of the procedure and have already addressed the cost.
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Why even bring it up? While a theoretical possibility, it is cost prohibitive and would require a surgical procedure for a woman to remove the fetus and placenta safely. The risks for the woman would include anesthesia and surgical risks. So pardon me if I have no clue why this keeps getting brought up.

It shows an absolute lack of insight into why most women choose abortion,

I wish instead of chasing this fool's errand...folks would look into pragmatic opportunities......Making long term contraception more accessible and more safe for those that want it. Improving contraception options for men. Helping turn unwanted pregnancy into wanted pregnancy. (that is difficult, it means affording decent accessible medical care for the woman, job/income security, housing security....etc)
 
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