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Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape[W:170]

Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

What did God know? You think Jeremiah's physical form was floating around in the ether before he was born?



Not according to the Bible.



Let's see the verse to which you refer.



Citation needed.

Bible explained Life begins at birth ( meaning spiritual life or ensoulment )

In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: 'If a man kills any human life he will be put to death' (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.”

The magazine Christian Life agreed, insisting, “The Bible definitely pinpoints a difference in the value of a fetus and an adult.” And the Southern Baptist Convention passed a 1971 resolution affirming abortion should be legal not only to protect the life of the mother, but to protect her emotional health as well.

My Take: When evangelicals were pro-choice ? CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

Evanglists :


Why does it matter that what evangelical leaders say is “the biblical view on abortion” was not a widespread interpretation until about 30 years ago?

For one thing, it’s harder to argue the Bible clearly teaches something when the overwhelming majority of its past interpreters didn’t read the Bible that way.

For another, it illustrates that evangelical leaders are happy to defend creative reinterpretations of the Bible when it fits with a socially conservative worldview — even while objecting to new interpretations of the Bible on, say, homosexuality, precisely because they are new. And for another, by looking at the history of how today’s “biblical view on abortion” arose, one can begin to see the worldview that made it possible.

In the process, it becomes apparent it is that unacknowledged worldview, and not the Bible, that evangelical opponents of abortion are actually defending.


How Evangelicals Decided That Life Begins at Conception | HuffPost
 
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Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

Huffpost, really?

Actually , the the quote was from Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary who explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth.

The original article was posted in 1968 in a Christian magazine. ( Christianity Today )

That was in the CNN link.

The Huffpost article explained that it was Falwell who changed the pro choice position of the Evanglisis changing the intereptation of the Bible.
 
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Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

Actually , the the quote was from Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary who explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth.

The original article was posted in 1968 in a Christian magazine. ( Christianity Today )

That was in the CNN link.

The Huffpost article explained that it was Falwell who changed the pro choice position of the Evanglisis changing the intereptation of the Bible.

Talk about hypocrisy.
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

My point is simple:

Dittohead claimed the soul inhabits a fetus at some time after conception. That is in contradiction to the Bible.

Actually, it isn't. BTW, YOU said "it's not advocating abortion". Which is why I said it isn't prohibiting it.
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

Hmm... two apparently contradictory statements in the same post. Which is it, no special focus on DNA, or a DNA test would tell you a fetus is a human being?

I can't help what is "apparent" to you. I don't understand what you're talking about.

You're the one hung up on DNA; I told you the only way DNA could be indirectly relevant.
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

Jeremiah was not a unique individual in this respect, there were many prophets and we've no reason to believe prophets have special rules about their souls. That he lost faith (wished he wasn't born) is a common theme in the Bible, most of the heroes fall in such a manner; it's not advocating abortion.

then that would leave the interpretation that god knows all souls before birth and a connection with a body

not certain but how is it ruled out?
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

My point is simple:

Dittohead claimed the soul inhabits a fetus at some time after conception. That is in contradiction to the Bible.

you have yet to show that its a contradiction since the verse you cited leave room for dittos interpretation as well

unless you have some other verses to use perhaps in which case please share them
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

Talk about hypocrisy.

Some Christian religions are pro choice and do not believe that ensoulment happens till birth.
They believe ( spiritual ) life begins with the first breath---the breath of life.

From :

When Evanglisists were open to differing views on abortion

There was a time in the not too distant past when the majority of Protestant Christians,
including those who called themselves evangelical, did not consider the point at which a fertilized ovum or developing embryo or fetus becomes a human being to be clearly defined, indisputable, and settled for all time.

There was a time when different viewpoints were accepted and respected and did not serve as a litmus test to determine who was a “real” Christian. A time when many evangelicals thought that the United States Supreme Court’s 1973 Roe v. Wade decision might be considered a good and compassionate ruling as it overturned the varied restrictive abortion laws
of the states that so often drove desperate women to seek out illegal, unsafe, “back-alley” abortions.

Instead, declared the court, the constitutional guarantee of privacy leaves it up to a woman, her doctor, and her own moral agency to make decisions about terminating a pregnancy.

Religion historian Randall Balmer in his book, Thy Kingdom Come, writes that Rev.W. A. Criswell, a well known fundamentalist Baptist pastor who was at one time president of the Southern Baptist Convention, expressed his approval of the Supreme Court decision in these words: “I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed.”

And Dudley, in his book cited earlier, quotes a Dallas Theological Seminary professor who wrote a 1968 article for Christianity Today claiming that “God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed,” basing his argument on Exodus 21:22-24. Other conservative Christian theologians made similar arguments.

Randall Balmer reminds us that two years before the 1973 Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision, the Southern Baptist Convention, meeting in St. Louis, Missouri, adopted a resolution that called on Southern Baptists “to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother.”

Or consider this quotation from a 1973 book on sex education in the Christian home by an evangelical author and commissioned by a conservative evangelical publisher who had asked Dr. James Dobson (yes, that James Dobson) to write the foreword. In the book’s section on abortion, which objectively informed the reader of both the physiological and legal aspects (including the Supreme Court ruling that had just passed), there appeared this nonjudgmental paragraph:

“There are sharp differences among Christians with regard to abortion. Some consider it murder; others say the operation might be an act of mercy. Some believe that the soul enters the fetus at conception. Others feel that the zygote (fertilized ovum) is just a cell that may become a potential human being but is not yet one at the moment, and hence its removal is not ‘murder.’ The Bible is silent on the subject, although some Christians believe Exodus 21:22, 23 may indicate a developing embryo or fetus was not regarded as a full human being, since inflicting an injury on a pregnant women which resulted in its loss was to be punished by a fine rather than by death, under the ‘life for life’ law.”

Read more:

https://eewc.com/evangelicals-open-differing-views-abortion/
 
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Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

Some Christian religions are pro choice and do not believe that ensoulment happens till birth.
They believe ( spiritual ) life begins with the breath of life.

From :

When Evanglisists were open to differing views on abortion


Read more:

https://eewc.com/evangelicals-open-differing-views-abortion/

You are a hypocrite because you and many of the pro-choice radicals refuse to read anything sources from lifenews and other reputable sources - which cite medical studies and reputable sources but expect to read your garbage sources like the huffington post, daily kos, mother jones, etc...

LOL
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

Actually, it isn't. BTW, YOU said "it's not advocating abortion". Which is why I said it isn't prohibiting it.

I agree it isn't prohibiting it, that's up to interpretation. But the verse I cite is clear: the soul exists even before conception. There is no mention of a period in which the fetus is without a soul; in fact, that makes no sense given the verse.

Perhaps I should note, I'm an atheist and have rejected all things supernatural all my life. I've studied the Bible for years with various denominations and with study material from various denominations. I've also been to church with various denominations. I'm fascinated by spiritual literature.

So, unless you can produce a verse that says a fetus exists for a time period without a soul, the verse from Jeremiah stands as clear evidence against any such notion.
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

I agree it isn't prohibiting it, that's up to interpretation. But the verse I cite is clear: the soul exists even before conception. There is no mention of a period in which the fetus is without a soul; in fact, that makes no sense given the verse.

Perhaps I should note, I'm an atheist and have rejected all things supernatural all my life. I've studied the Bible for years with various denominations and with study material from various denominations. I've also been to church with various denominations. I'm fascinated by spiritual literature.

So, unless you can produce a verse that says a fetus exists for a time period without a soul, the verse from Jeremiah stands as clear evidence against any such notion.

its not clear that verse doesn't say a soul is combined with the body at conception or at any other point just that god allredy knows you during the pregnancy
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

its not clear that verse doesn't say a soul is combined with the body at conception or at any other point just that god allredy knows you during the pregnancy

Do you have any Bible verse that says a soul occupies a fetus after conception? No, you don't. Dittohead pulled that out of his ass.
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

You are a hypocrite because you and many of the pro-choice radicals refuse to read anything sources from lifenews and other reputable sources - which cite medical studies and reputable sources but expect to read your garbage sources like the huffington post, daily kos, mother jones, etc...

LOL

I call BS. I have read many articles from many sources including pro life sources.

But I don't expect you to read the articles I post unless you want too.

I was asked for citations and I searched for articles that quoted my citations , then per DP rules I posted the article I pulled the quoted citations from.
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

Do you have any Bible verse that says a soul occupies a fetus after conception? No, you don't. Dittohead pulled that out of his ass.

Main line Christian churches believe ensoulment happens with the breath of life.



The Breath of Life

In the Bible when God created Adam God :
“breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul”
(Genesis 2:7).

Also, these verses in Genesis (6:17; 7:15, 22) refer to the “breath of life,”

And in Job “The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life” (Job 33:4).


More Bible verses:

By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Psalms 33:6



9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army...

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

Ezekiel 37 9-10, 13-14
 
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Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

Pro choice Christian churches believe ensoulment happens with the breath of life.



The Breath of Life

In the Bible when God created Adam God :
“breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul”
(Genesis 2:7).

Also, these verses in Genesis (6:17; 7:15, 22) refer to the “breath of life,”

And in Job “The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life” (Job 33:4).


More Bible verses:

By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Psalms 33:6



9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army...

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

Ezekiel 37 9-10, 13-14

Is a zygote not alive?
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

Is a zygote not alive?


Scientifically an unborn is alive, but spiritually according to the Bible life begins with live birth.
The passages I quoted from the Bible teaches us that spiritually life begins with the breath of life.
It is when God breaths spiritual life into a babies body. Thats why it is referred to as the breath of life.


Genesis 2
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.

Living soul.


I was talking about the breath of life makes us living souls.

We receive the living soul at birth.

This Wiki link helps explain about a living soul.


Nephesh (נֶ֫פֶשׁ‎ nép̄eš) is a Biblical Hebrew word which occurs in the Hebrew Bible. The word refers to the aspects of sentience, and human beings
and other animals are both described as having nephesh.[1][2] Plants, as an example of live organisms, are not referred in the Bible as having nephesh. The term נפש‎ is literally 'soul', although it is commonly rendered as "life" in English translations.[3] A view is that nephesh relates to 'sentient being' without the idea of life and that, rather than having a nephesh, a sentient creation of God is a nephesh. In Genesis 2:7 the text is that Adam was not given a nephesh but "became a living nephesh." Nephesh then is better understood as 'person', seeing that Leviticus 21:11 and Numbers 6:6 speak of a 'dead body', which in Hebrew is a nép̄eš mêṯ, a dead nephesh. [4] Nephesh when put with another word can detail aspects related to the concept of nephesh; with רוּחַ‎ rûach "spirit" it describes a part of mankind that is immaterial, like one's mind, emotions, will, intellect, personality and conscience, as in Job 7:11. [5][6]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

And here's why that's bull****. By the Genesis account there was no living ancestor to Adam, Adam was the first human being, and Adams body was made with pure ****ing divine magic.

Human embryology does not work that way.

I am not a "strong" atheist so don't get me wrong, the fact that our embryology doesn't align with divine magic doesn't objectively mean that our bodies are NOT based off a blueprint of divine magic for a dude from an extra-dimensional paradise garden...

... but since I'm considerate of that fact, how about we not pretend that the two creation acts are remotely similar?
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

I agree it isn't prohibiting it, that's up to interpretation. But the verse I cite is clear: the soul exists even before conception. There is no mention of a period in which the fetus is without a soul; in fact, that makes no sense given the verse.

Perhaps I should note, I'm an atheist and have rejected all things supernatural all my life. I've studied the Bible for years with various denominations and with study material from various denominations. I've also been to church with various denominations. I'm fascinated by spiritual literature.

So, unless you can produce a verse that says a fetus exists for a time period without a soul, the verse from Jeremiah stands as clear evidence against any such notion.

I don't claim it does or doesn't have a soul, it's irrelevant to the abortion debate, as far as I am concerned. The verse you cite is often used by Christians to say God is against abortion. It says no such thing.
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

DNA is there to tell us what something is. When discussing if we wanna kill something, it's helpful to know what it is.

In the case of abortion, we already know that the unborn are humans throughout all stages of development. It's mostly personhood that is (should) being discussed now.

So there shouldn't be any special focus on DNA or what the unborn are since those have already been decided. JayDubya is merely reminded people some of the scientific facts.

and when a person dies, the DNA is unchanged. Does that mean that a cadaver is also a human being?
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

This was a stupid thing the say. She should be embarrassed and never say this again.

You're right. I can't imagine a woman being raped thinking, "Well, good news is I might get pregnant."
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

I can't help what is "apparent" to you. I don't understand what you're talking about.

You're the one hung up on DNA; I told you the only way DNA could be indirectly relevant.

Well, you say that you're not "hung up" on DNA, then you say, "If you doubt the organisms in question are living members of Homo sapiens - human beings - a DNA test would of course tell you that your doubts were unfounded."

If you do a DNA test on a cadaver, you'll see that it is also human. You must ignore the fact that the "human" is no longer living, i.e., the spirit has left the body. So, if you subscribe to the atheistic theory that a human being is made up of DNA, then it follows that a dead body is also a human, just as a fetus that has not yet had a spirit inhabit it is a human being.
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

its not clear that verse doesn't say a soul is combined with the body at conception or at any other point just that god allredy knows you during the pregnancy

Before the pregnancy. He knew you before you were formed in the womb. It doesn't say how long before, maybe thousands of years before.
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

and when a person dies, the DNA is unchanged. Does that mean that a cadaver is also a human being?

... again you are stupidly hung up on DNA alone, and you just keep digging.

I tried to inform you the only way DNA could be relevant here; you doggedly insist that Homo sapiens in utero - living organisms - are somehow not Homo sapiens. DNA testing is one way to show that you are wrong, that in fact they are Homo sapiens. That's it.
 
Re: Pregnancy Is the "Silver Lining" of Rape

... again you are stupidly hung up on DNA alone, and you just keep digging.

I tried to inform you the only way DNA could be relevant here; you doggedly insist that Homo sapiens in utero - living organisms - are somehow not Homo sapiens. DNA testing is one way to show that you are wrong, that in fact they are Homo sapiens. That's it.

OK, then, since it seems to me that you're the one hung up on DNA, let's just drop that subject altogether.

The reason you know that a dead body isn't a human being and the reason a fetus isn't a human being is the same. There are no brain waves, and therefore no spirit inhabiting the body.
 
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