God does not oppose abortion

tosca1 · May 11, 2017

FutureIncoming said:
I KNOW THE LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE OF CERTAIN COMMON CLAIMS MADE ABOUT GOD. The title of this Thread is nothing more than that logical conclusion simply stated.

Well, your so-called conclusion is proven wrong. Simply stated.

And it's nowhere logical at all.
If you're going to make claims about what the Biblical God approves or disapproves of, you'll have to rely on the Bible as the authority to provide you your conclusions! As simple as that. That's logic.

Otherwise...... it's kinda like me making claims about what you approve of disapprove of.....and I cite people in Zimbabwe - who know nothing of you - as my evidence to support my claim about you!
If I want to make claims about you, I'll have to go to those who know you so well - or maybe read your autobiography (if not, downright ask you!) That's only logical. Simply stated.

tosca1 · May 11, 2017

FutureIncoming said:
YUP. Often by fission. Sometimes by budding. And sometimes by sporulation. Why are you ignoring the Fact that the Biblical verses include the simultaneous Command-into-existence of vast numbers of sexually-reproducting species?

Why do you say I ignored that?

Actually, you're the one who ignore the fact that other creatures multiply by other means!

You wonder why God didn't just speak Adam to existence - just like He did the other creatures. It's only with the creation of Adam and Eve did He personally get involved in their creation - forming Adam from dust (and breathing life into Him), and creating Eve from his rib!
And these two humans were the only ones God specifically designated into male and female!
Why indeed? Can you guess why?

Ha! That onlly supports my rebuttal that God's breathing into Adam was actually putting soul into him.....otherwise (if we follow Minnie's silly argument - taken from some silly yoga instructions - that life literally began when God breathe into Adam), all these creatures that He created were all zombies! Even today as we speak....they're all walking dead! :lol:

Do animals have souls? Who really knows? I don't know. Maybe yes, maybe not. God doesn't tell us everything!
There are things that are none of our business. He only tells us what He thinks we should know.
That's interesting to research, though.

GEIxBattleRifle · May 11, 2017

tosca1 said:
Some animals can unexpectedly, react differently. Some animals might stand their ground and "punch" back!
I've seen an ordinary cat chase an ordinary bear! :lol:

It would've been different if the cat had no other recourse than to stand her ground and fight.
As you can see, the cat even ambushed the unsuspecting, seemingly harmless bear!

When are you going to realize that a adequately mentally developed human has mental characteristics that other animals do not have?

FutureIncoming · May 11, 2017

tosca1 said:
Well, your so-called conclusion is proven wrong. Simply stated.

YOUR MERE CLAIM IS WORTHLESS UNLESS SUPPORTED WITH EVIDENCE. Which you have not-at-all done (show how the standard claims are not valid, or how the logical conclusion described fails to be reached).

tosca1 said:
And it's nowhere logical at all.

BE SPECIFIC REGARDING HOW THE LOGIC FAILS. Otherwise you are blathering nonsense, just like most abortion opponents.

tosca1 said:
If you're going to make claims about what the Biblical God approves or disapproves of,

I CAN USE ANY BIBLICAL DATA I CHOOSE. And I did exactly that. Are you planning on saying that "God is smart" and "God is knowledgeable" and "God is loving" are statements not-at-all supported by the Bible? I suspect you would be better-off saying, "Here is another claim about God that must be added to your argument!" --except you haven't done any such thing.

tosca1 said:
you'll have to rely on the Bible as the authority to provide you your conclusions!

THAT'S PROPAGANDISTIC INDOCTRINATION, a thing generally misused by evil people, such as abortion opponents (genocidal slavers, they are!). According to the Bible, we have the God-given power to do our own thinking about data, and reach our own conclusions. And so I did! Such as reach the conclusion that the Bible exists to make greedy preachers richer and more powerful. Such as reach the conclusion that God doesn't oppose abortion. So far you haven't offered the slightest bit of data refuting Exodus 21:22, much less show that God opposes abortion.

tosca1 said:
As simple as that.

FALSE. When you let others do your thinking for you, you are not exhibiting any superiority over mere-animal status.

tosca1 said:
That's logic.

NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST. You have the right to act like a shill, mindlessly repeating things you have been told to say, but everyone including you has the right to think, first.

tosca1 said:
Otherwise...... it's kinda like me making claims about what you approve of disapprove of

THAT COULD BE TRUE **ONLY** IF YOU STARTED WITH OTHER CLAIMS ABOUT ME, WHICH ARE WIDELY CONSIDERED TO BE VALID. So, are you saying "God is smart" is an invalid claim? Are you saying "God is knowledgeable" is an invalid claim? Are you saying "God is loving" is an invalid claim? If the claims are invalid, it is well-known that only invalid conclusions can be reached from them using them logically. But if the claims are valid, then valid conclusions can be reached. The Original Posts here explain in detail how I reached a particular logical conclusion. You have yet to point out any flaws in the logic presented!

tosca1 said:
.....and I cite people in Zimbabwe - who know nothing of you - as my evidence to support my claim about you!

SEE ABOVE. If you have no valid initial data, you cannot reach valid conclusions.

tosca1 said:
If I want to make claims about you, I'll have to go to those who know you so well - or maybe read your autobiography (if not, downright ask you!) That's only logical. Simply stated.

AGAIN, YOU NEED VALID INITIAL DATA. And so far as I know, we have valid initial data about God, to reach valid conclusions about God.

FutureIncoming · May 11, 2017

tosca1 said:
Why do you say I ignored that?

BECAUSE YOU ONLY TALKED ABOUT ASEXUAL REPRODUCTION. In (#191) I specifically mentioned molds and water hydra, species that don't reproduce sexually, AND species that reproduced sexually, like chimpanzees. The Bible verses about their Creation has all of them getting Commanded into existence together. Therefore both sexes of all sexually-reproducing species got Created per that Command. Yet you ignored that! --and only talked about the subset of all those Commanded-to-exist species that reproduce asexually. Tsk, tsk!

tosca1 said:
Actually, you're the one who ignore the fact that other creatures multiply by other means!

A STUPID LIE. (A stupid lie can be proved to be a lie super-easily) See #191, where I specifically mentioned molds and water hydra.

tosca1 said:
You wonder why God didn't just speak Adam to existence

I DON'T WONDER ABOUT IT. I'm quite certain that the greedy preachers who wrote the Bible were Stupidly Prejudiced, and wanted their description of humanity's Creation to be special, the better to encourage the peasants to breed more tithers. And so I simply pointed out that God isn't that stupid or incompetent, to have needed to Create human bodies specially.

tosca1 said:
- just like He did the other creatures.

YUP --If Creating millions of species at once is no problem for God, then Creating one more species (humanity) at the same time as all the others would have been no big deal.

tosca1 said:
It's only with the creation of Adam and Eve did He personally get involved in their creation - forming Adam from dust (and breathing life into Him), and creating Eve from his rib!

JUST BECAUSE GREEDY PREACHERS WROTE THAT DOWN, THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. Especially since we know the whole Creation story is actually a fable, anyway. But more to the point is this: "If Creating millions of species at once is no problem for God, then Creating one more species (humanity) at the same time as all the others would have been no big deal."

tosca1 said:
And these two humans were the only ones God specifically designated into male and female!

THAT IMPLIES NO OTHER SEXUALLY-REPRODUCING SPECIES EVER GOT CREATED. Are you planning on claiming that Hindu "holy cows" are actually mutations from human stock? Or are you going to accept that the same Biblical verses that don't mention Creation of sexually-reproducing species are quite generic enough to encompass the Creation of sexually-reproducing species?!?!?

tosca1 said:
Why indeed? Can you guess why?

GREEDY PREACHERS GOT CARRIED AWAY WITH THEIR CONCEITED EGOTISTICAL STUPIDLY PREJUDICED VALUATIONS OF HUMANS.

tosca1 said:
Ha! That only supports my rebuttal that God's breathing into Adam was actually putting soul into him.....

DON'T CONFLATE DIFFERENT ARGUMENTS OF DIFFERENT POSTERS. Our current argument is only about the Fact that the Bible claims God Commanded millions of species to begin existing, including sexually-reproducing species, and Creation of living human physical animal bodies --of both sexes-- per that same Command is such a trivial matter to an Almighty God as to make no difference (no special human-body-Creating Command needed). But simply because souls are non-physical, that is why a separate Command would be needed to cause human souls to begin existing.

tosca1 said:
Do animals have souls?

REMEMBER AMOEBA QUALIFY AS ANIMALS. When I talked about "life force" and "vitalism" in the Original Post, the goal was to point out that SOME folks associate that with the soul --except that we have proof that there is actually no such thing as "life force". An amoeba is just a machine. A complicated biological machine, but nothing more than just a machine. Are you going to claim that gasoline-powered model airplanes have souls?

tosca1 said:
Who really knows? I don't know. Maybe yes, maybe not. God doesn't tell us everything!

WE STILL HAVE THE POWER TO FIGURE THINGS OUT. It is often claimed by True Believers that God will meet your needs (not your wants). Logically, if an amoeba needs a soul, then it has one. But what does it need a soul for??? Life force still doesn't exist, and the amoeba is still just a machine!!!

tosca1 said:
There are things that are none of our business.

PROVE IT. The power to figure things out does not appear to have much in the way of limitations....

tosca1 said:
He only tells us what He thinks we should know.

NOT THE SAME THING AS FORBIDDING US FROM FINDING THINGS OUT.

Scrabaholic · May 11, 2017

Angel said:
I hope everyone understands that whether God opposes abortion or endorses abortion, abortion must remain legal.
Whether abortion is immoral or moral, the choice must remain with the moral agent, not with the state, and not with the neighbors.

Amen to this.

tosca1 · May 11, 2017

FutureIncoming said:
BECAUSE YOU ONLY TALKED ABOUT ASEXUAL REPRODUCTION. In (#191) I specifically mentioned molds and water hydra, species that don't reproduce sexually, AND species that reproduced sexually, like chimpanzees. The Bible verses about their Creation has all of them getting Commanded into existence together.

Therefore both sexes of all sexually-reproducing species got Created per that Command. Yet you ignored that! --and only talked about the subset of all those Commanded-to-exist species that reproduce asexually. Tsk, tsk!

:roll:

Your #191 doesn't really say anything other than you're questioning why God had not commanded Adam into existence like all the rest!

Like I've pointed out, you're critiquing God's methods of creation. You're free to do that, but don't expect any sensible poster to debate that earnestly with you! Yours is simply your own opinion, and it's even a faulty one at that!

I'm telling you again - He's got to have His own reasons why He didn't lump Adam with all the rest of His creation!
You know why? Because He purposefully separated humans from other creations! That's why!

Why do you think He gave man dominion over all other creations on earth?

You might like to make yourself equal with chimpanzees - but according to God, they're not our equal!

tosca1 · May 11, 2017

Originally Posted by Angel View Post
I hope everyone understands that whether God opposes abortion or endorses abortion, abortion must remain legal.
Whether abortion is immoral or moral, the choice must remain with the moral agent, not with the state, and not with the neighbors.

Your opinion doesn't justify why abortion MUST remain legal!
No, it's not a must that it should remain legal!

Furthermore, what is a moral agent? An individual who can make a moral decision.

If abortion is deemed immoral like murder, why shouldn't neighbors make the moral decision to interfere to save anyone from getting murdered?

Angel · May 11, 2017

tosca1 said:
Your opinion doesn't justify why abortion MUST remain legal!
No, it's not a must that it should remain legal!

Furthermore, what is a moral agent? An individual who can make a moral decision.

If abortion is deemed immoral like murder, why shouldn't neighbors make the moral decision to interfere to save anyone from getting murdered?

The decision must (ought, should) remain with the individual moral agent in the case of abortion.

First, let me make clear that I personally believe abortion is immoral, unless the life of the mother is at stake. But the choice must be left to the woman, period.

Second, your definition of moral agent is correct.

Third, an embryo or fetus is not an individual, not an agent, and so not a moral agent.

Fourth, moral decisions are always personal. I can't make moral decisions for you, nor you for me. Nor can the state make my moral decisions or yours.

Fifth, abortion is not "deemed immoral like murder," that is to say, abortion is not universally deemed immoral.

Given the above, law should not infringe on the moral decision of the individual moral agent in this case.

tosca1 · May 11, 2017

Angel said:
The decision must (ought, should) remain with the individual moral agent in the case of abortion.

First, let me make clear that I personally believe abortion is immoral, unless the life of the mother is at stake. But the choice must be left to the woman, period.

Second, your definition of moral agent is correct.

Third, an embryo or fetus is not an individual, not an agent, and so not a moral agent.

Fourth, moral decisions are always personal. I can't make moral decisions for you, nor you for me. Nor can the state make my moral decisions or yours.

Fifth, abortion is not "deemed immoral like murder," that is to say, abortion is not universally deemed immoral.

Given the above, law should not infringe on the moral decision of the individual moral agent in this case.

All your arguments have been repeatedly addressed already in various threads. Forgive me if I refrain from rebutting them (again).

Angel · May 11, 2017

tosca1 said:
All your arguments have been repeatedly addressed already in various threads. Forgive me if I refrain from rebutting them (again).

You are forgiven, tosca. I've presented the logic of the case. Any "rebuttal" must necessarily wear scare quotes anyway.

FutureIncoming · May 12, 2017

tosca1 said:
Your #191 doesn't really say anything other than you're questioning why God had not commanded Adam into existence like all the rest!

NOT QUITE. I question the Biblical **claim** that God Created human bodies separately from all the bodies of all those other species that got Created simultaneously, when it is well-known that the human **body** is just another relatively ordinary animal body, 90%+ the same as other Great Apes.

tosca1 said:
Like I've pointed out, you're critiquing God's methods of creation.

NO, I'M CRITIQUING THE STUPIDLY PREJUDICED AND GREEDY AUTHORS OF THE BIBLE. Do keep in mind that God most certainly did not sit down somewhere and write the Bible! Humans wrote it, and humans are well-known to tell lies (including fables like the Creation story --but good stories are consistent!).

tosca1 said:
You're free to do that, but don't expect any sensible poster to debate that earnestly with you!

THEY DON'T HAVE TO DEBATE SOMETHING I'M NOT ACTUALLY ARGUING ABOUT.

tosca1 said:
Yours is simply your own opinion, and it's even a faulty one at that!

HAW! HAW!! HAW!!! FACTS ARE FACTS. God did not sit down somewhere and write the Bible! And the Creation story **is** just a fable! And because of its lack of internal consistency, it is not even a very good fable....

tosca1 said:
I'm telling you again - He's got to have His own reasons why He didn't lump Adam with all the rest of His creation!

I'M TELLING YOU AGAIN THAT STUPIDLY PREJUDICED AND GREEDY PREACHERS MADE UP THE WHOLE STORY. And because they wanted more tithers to get born, to make themselves richer, they gave humans special treatment in the Creation fable. Simple!

tosca1 said:
You know why? Because He purposefully separated humans from other creations! That's why!

SEE ABOVE.

tosca1 said:
Why do you think He gave man dominion over all other creations on earth?

HUMANS VERY OFTEN ACT AS IF MIGHT MAKES RIGHT. We have the power to dominate all other creations on Earth, and just because of that, we tend to do it.

tosca1 said:
You might like to make yourself equal with chimpanzees - but according to God, they're not our equal!

I DIDN'T SAY WE WERE EQUAL TO CHIMPANZEES. I simply pointed out the Fact that we have something like 98% of the same DNA as chimpanzees. When you consider how different chimps are from, say, amoeba, then it is extremely easy to note that if God Commanded amoeba and chimps to begin existing simultaneously, despite how different they are, then Commanding human bodies to begin existing also, at the same time, would have been trivial. But like I said, it is the Stupidly Prejudiced and greedy preachers, not God, who wrote the Creation fable, and who wanted the Creation of humans to be special, to encourage the peasants to breed more tithers.

God does not oppose abortion

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