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Thread: Choices [W:1315]

  1. #1771
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    Re: Choices [W:1315]

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    If you can't choose to die, then you can't choose to not live, then you can't choose to live. You're either alive or you're not. But that's not really a contraindication of abortion.

    I don't think it would change the right to life not being politically viable.

    I'm still uncertain as to how a right to child support can exist, if a right to life doesn't, though the latter is not implied by the former. For example, some Republicans believe it is fiscally conservative to withhold child support from teenage mothers who take advantage of the system by not working hard enough and living a lavish lifestyle for free. I do not. But some of those same conservative Republicans who want to withhold public funding also want to pump more babies into the system by criminalizing abortion (in some or all cases).

    Besides childhood poverty not being economically feasible in the long run, this would actually increase abuses of children and parents. Capitalism is rewarding for people who have wealth, and for people who earn capital. But the short term effect of distributing less funding across more recipients would expand childhood poverty in poor communities. That's a poor choice.

    To me, it would make more sense to guarantee child support for children who have a right to life (of which there are none, currently). In principle, children should be supported, although you and I disagree on the extent to which that should be enforced for the simple reason that it is no more ethical to force someone to live or die than it is to force someone to be a parent or to not be a parent in any capacity.

    A capitalist society should be more rewarding of its children's institutions, at least.
    WOW.

    I should have known you would try to twist the fact that there really is no way for anything ( nature) or anyone ( government ) to guarantee the right to life with something not even the slightest related as child support.

    smh....

  2. #1772
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    Re: Choices [W:1315]

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    If you can't choose to die, ...
    SUICIDES ARE COMMON ENOUGH to prove that "The law is an ass". They might as well try banning alcohol consumption. I suspect that similar to abortion, legalization of suicide will bring the rate down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    I don't think it would change the right to life not being politically viable.
    "RIGHT TO LIFE" IS SIMPLY A USEFUL TOOL, useful for helping folks get-along with each other. It generally means you don't have to worry about getting stabbed in the back, because you are not allowed to stab someone in the back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    I'm still uncertain as to how a right to child support can exist, if a right to life doesn't,
    NOT APPLICABLE AFTER BIRTH. The right-to-life for a born child does exist, and therefore, since born humans are Naturally helpless, child support must be provided to them.

    BEFORE BIRTH IS CONSISTENT THE OTHER WAY. The unborn don't have right-to-life, and supporting them is not mandatory, since abortion is legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    though the latter is not implied by the former. For example, some Republicans believe ...
    THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT A BUSINESS, yet Republicans want to treat it like a business, and especially minimize any competition between it and other businesses (mostly owned by Republicans). In business, the Law of Supply and Demand rules. Business owners can profit by restricting Supply (Republicans favor formation of unregulated monopolies), and by increasing Demand (Republicans oppose abortion). All they are really doing is helping the rich (mostly Republicans) get richer, while everyone else gets poorer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    To me, it would make more sense to guarantee child support for children who have a right to life (of which there are none, currently).
    FALSE. As explained above; the parents are most-often required to provide child-support. Also note that unborn humans are provably so different from "babies" and "children" that they should never be called by either of those terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    In principle, children should be supported, although you and I disagree on the extent to which that should be enforced
    BIRTH IS AN EXISTING DIVIDING LINE. Including for the most-rational definition of "children". Most of your disagreement about child support after birth appears to be related to a refusal to acknowledge that stupid actions are punishable. Tsk, tsk!
    Last edited by FutureIncoming; 07-04-17 at 05:23 PM.
    Stupidly Prejudiced Master Race Idiocy was supposedly stomped into irrelevance by WW2; insisting "human=person" fails to Be Prepared for any future with non-human persons in it. So: Define "person" to accurately distinguish one, regardless of how exists, from a mere animal, universally. Why should Stupid Prejudice let our unborn qualify?

  3. #1773
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    Re: Choices [W:1315]

    Quote Originally Posted by FutureIncoming View Post
    SUICIDES ARE COMMON ENOUGH to prove that "The law is an ass". They might as well try banning alcohol consumption. I suspect that similar to abortion, legalization of suicide will bring the rate down.
    I doubt it, but here you go:


    Quote Originally Posted by FutureIncoming View Post
    THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT A BUSINESS, yet Republicans want to treat it like a business, and especially minimize any competition between it and other businesses (mostly owned by Republicans). In business, the Law of Supply and Demand rules. Business owners can profit by restricting Supply (Republicans favor formation of unregulated monopolies), and by increasing Demand (Republicans oppose abortion). All they are really doing is helping the rich (mostly Republicans) get richer, while everyone else gets poorer.
    I'm not sure why you think that the wealthy people in this country are mostly Republicans.

    I believe that Republicans are interested in preserving a (traditional) hierarchy of social class, such that the rich will remain rich with some high level of certainty. But the Republicans today who claim to not be sexist or racist must allow for some minority success, so not everyone else should become poorer, although they may be allowed to remain poor by "choice." By partitioning (segregating) classes, Republicans must want to create competition within, but not among classes. Just my two cents on the current administration.

    Quote Originally Posted by FutureIncoming View Post
    FALSE. As explained above; the parents are most-often required to provide child-support. Also note that unborn humans are provably so different from "babies" and "children" that they should never be called by either of those terms.
    First you claim suicide is illegal, then you explain that murder is illegal. The right to live and the lack of a right to cause death aren't the same thing. There is no "right to live" simply because to do otherwise is prohibited. If it is policy that murder is illegal, then it would be implied that people have a right to live without fear of being killed, although killing and living aren't opposites. Hence, the negation of one shouldn't be equivalent to the other, or vice versa.

    On the other hand, the opposite of living is death, which means that if suicide is legal, then you have the right to not live, and thus a right to choose between life and death. But, let's return to the fear of being killed, or lack thereof. If you or I can live without fear of death, does that make us immortal? No, not really. Anyone who fears death is likely mortal, but there may be some mortals who don't fear death. I suppose that must mean that while living without fear of being murdered does not necessarily mean that one has a right to not be dead (but rather, murderers lack the right to commit a crime which would result in the loss of a life) many believe that they are protected from murder by their right to live. Some law prohibiting death by murder may not prohibit their death to the same degree of culpability on the part of the murderer or perpetrator of manslaughter.

    But what do you think of the right to survive a natural disaster, or an accident? Although the law might not be able to assign guilt to a perpetrator in either case, it seems to be a point of doubling the wrongdoing of a guilty party in an accident which threatens the viability of a fetus. This is not the case for living people, whose rights are further segmented into "rights to be unharmed within the scope of various clauses of various contractual agreements with various entities." To say that someone has the right to live seems somewhat dull and uninspiring, if they have the right to live as a cripple and a slave.

    Quote Originally Posted by FutureIncoming View Post
    BIRTH IS AN EXISTING DIVIDING LINE. Including for the most-rational definition of "children". Most of your disagreement about child support after birth appears to be related to a refusal to acknowledge that stupid actions are punishable. Tsk, tsk!
    No, I simply refuse to acknowledge the false justice which does not honor my right to due process. For every woman who has the right to abort a process that leads to her motherhood, there also must be a man who may abort his fatherhood.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Then, you can't complain about this.
    That's the thing about living in a free country, you don't get to pick and choose the rights you want protected. Either they're all protected, or none of them are.

  4. #1774
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    Re: Choices [W:1315]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    WOW.

    I should have known you would try to twist the fact that there really is no way for anything ( nature) or anyone ( government ) to guarantee the right to life with something not even the slightest related as child support.

    smh....
    Funny coming from you...

    I assume that your twisted fantasy includes some special place above men for women who want to choose to become parents autonomously, which would imply that men are just mindless drones operating according to parameters set forth by women making voluntary choices.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Then, you can't complain about this.
    That's the thing about living in a free country, you don't get to pick and choose the rights you want protected. Either they're all protected, or none of them are.

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    Re: Choices [W:1315]

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Can I count on you to create a "Woe is Me Thread" to share your grievances?
    No, you cannot. Do not count on me for anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Then, you can't complain about this.
    That's the thing about living in a free country, you don't get to pick and choose the rights you want protected. Either they're all protected, or none of them are.

  6. #1776
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    Re: Choices [W:1315]

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    No, you cannot. Do not count on me for anything.
    Okay.........


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    Re: Choices [W:1315]

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Okay.........
    But you can count on me to not do some things.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Then, you can't complain about this.
    That's the thing about living in a free country, you don't get to pick and choose the rights you want protected. Either they're all protected, or none of them are.

  8. #1778
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    Re: Choices [W:1315]

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    I believe that Republicans are interested in ...
    ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. I described certain actions. And the net effect of those actions, in accordance with the Law of Supply and Demand, is to cause the rich to get richer and everyone else to get poorer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    First you claim suicide is illegal, then you explain that murder is illegal.
    THEY MIGHT THINK SUICIDE EQUALS MURDER OF SELF, but no one who ever did it has ever been charged with a crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    The right to live and the lack of a right to cause death aren't the same thing ....
    MOSTLY BECAUSE IT IS OFTEN ASSUMED THAT OTHERS ARE PART OF THE SITUATION. There is nevertheless some Choice involved. Right to life (as well as any other right) can only exist if many people choose to act as if it existed. Every participant can expect to not be arbitrarily killed, in return for choosing to not arbitrarily kill. In a way, suicide can be interpreted as choosing to become a killer, thereby forfeiting any claim of right-to-life --which makes oneself the only legitimately killable target!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    But what do you think of the right to survive a natural disaster, or an accident?
    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS RIGHT-TO-LIFE IN NATURE. It is purely a tool created by persons for use by persons, to help them get-along with each other better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    No, I simply refuse to acknowledge the false justice which does not honor my right to due process.
    YOU MEAN YOU WANT TO BE PROVED TO HAVE ACTED STUPIDLY, IN A COURT OF LAW? Looks pretty cut-and-dried to me, if you are guilty of helping to bring into existence another mouth-to-feed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    For every woman who has the right to abort a process that leads to her motherhood, there also must be a man who may abort his fatherhood.
    STUPIDLY BAD LOGIC. That's because you refuse, as I previously stated, to include all the relevant factors. Like the factor that an unborn human commits assault upon its hostess at least 4 different ways, and therefore abortion can simply be an act of self-defense. There need not be the slightest hint of a woman trying to get out of motherhood! PLUS, there is the factor that men generally KNOW that if they are involved in creating a new human, they can be held responsible for child support --and therefore if they Stupidly Ignore That Knowledge, it means they deserve the consequences! Very much like deserving to catch a disease by ignoring knowledge of safe sex. Stupidity Always Has A Price. PERIOD.
    Stupidly Prejudiced Master Race Idiocy was supposedly stomped into irrelevance by WW2; insisting "human=person" fails to Be Prepared for any future with non-human persons in it. So: Define "person" to accurately distinguish one, regardless of how exists, from a mere animal, universally. Why should Stupid Prejudice let our unborn qualify?

  9. #1779
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    Re: Choices [W:1315]

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    But you can count on me to not do some things.
    Carry on.....


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