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One Argument for why abortion should be legal[W:69;79]

FutureIncoming

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Many abortion opponents blather about killing persons (like old folks) as an alternative to abortion, which involves killing unborn human mere-animal entities. I don't know why they think such an alternative makes sense (perhaps the abortion opponents should volunteer as the persons to be killed?). Anyway, the following argument depends on the Objectively Measurable Fact that unborn humans are, provably, mere-animal entities.

We know that predators exist by killing other organisms; the killing they do is necessary for the health of ANY ecosystem. So, imagine that we humans were NOT at the top of the food pyramid, that there were predators accustomed to hunting us down and eating us. Actually, we know that was exactly the Natural situation back in Africa before hominins or pre-hominins invented the first "distance" weapon (see "The Calvin Throwing Hypothesis").

Since those long-ago days, the predators were mostly killed, with many going extinct (like giant cave bears) and others becoming seriously endangered (tigers), as our use of distance weapons improved. In one sense, the human species is in the same situation as wild deer in a forest that has no wolves --massive overpopulation results, and the whole ecosystem suffers. THAT'S why natural predation is necessary!

Since humans have become the top predators on the planet, we can and do replace wolves with respect to deer. And we have wars, describe-able as humans basically preying on other humans. That sort-of worked to keep human population from exploding, until the A-bomb was invented. Then large-scale war became too dangerous, with the result that we have since only had "brush fire" wars, relatively trivial with respect to population growth.

Do you see the Modern Conundrum? The global ecosystem NEEDS fewer humans in the world, in order to stabilize, but humans claim to have "right to life" --and the more they get-along with each other, the more such a claim is actualized (see #103) --while population continues to skyrocket, damaging the ecosystem even more!

Well, how can the Conundrum be resolved? FIRST, by recognizing that we are part of Nature. SECOND, by acknowledging that we need personal interactions with the natural ecology for our own psychological health. THIRD, by recognizing that all species need to avoid having excessive numbers, if an ecosystem is to remain stable. FOURTH, by accepting the fact that there is no such thing as a "right to breed" (it is actually a privilege that must be earned, and all through Nature, when it is not earned, offspring die). FIFTH, by acknowledging that we are the top predators on Earth. SIXTH, by accepting that that position gives us Responsibilities, and among those responsibilities is the importance of recognizing that the only predators that can "take us on" are ourselves. SEVENTH, by acknowledging the facts that unborn humans are mere-animal entities, not persons with right-to-life. EIGHTH, by noticing that abortion qualifies as a legitimate way that humans can prey on humans, since it is about persons versus animals, instead of, as in war, persons versus persons.
 
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Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

Many abortion opponents blather about killing persons (like old folks) as an alternative to abortion, which involves killing unborn human mere-animal entities. I don't know why they think such an alternative makes sense (perhaps the abortion opponents should volunteer as the persons to be killed?). Anyway, the following argument depends on the Objectively Measurable Fact that unborn humans are, provably, mere-animal entities.

[FONT=&] We know that predators exist by killing other organisms; [/FONT]the killing they do is necessary for the health of ANY ecosystem[FONT=&]. So, imagine that we humans were NOT at the top of the food pyramid, that there were predators accustomed to hunting us down and eating us. Actually, we know that was exactly the Natural situation back in Africa before hominins or pre-hominins invented the first "distance" weapon (see "[/FONT]The Calvin Throwing Hypothesis[FONT=&]").[/FONT]

[FONT=&]Since those long-ago days, the predators were mostly killed, with many going extinct (like giant cave bears) and others becoming seriously endangered (tigers), as our use of distance weapons improved. In one sense, the human species is in the same situation as wild deer in a forest that has no wolves --massive overpopulation results, and [/FONT]the whole ecosystem suffers[FONT=&]. THAT'S why natural predation is necessary![/FONT]

[FONT=&]Since humans have become the top predators on the planet, we can and do replace wolves with respect to deer. And we have wars, describe-able as humans basically preying on other humans. That sort-of worked to keep human population from exploding, until the A-bomb was invented. Then large-scale war became too dangerous, with the result that we have since only had "brush fire" wars, relatively trivial with respect to population growth.[/FONT]

[FONT=&]Do you see the Modern Conundrum? The global ecosystem NEEDS fewer humans in the world, in order to stabilize, but humans claim to have "right to life" --and the more they get-along with each other, the more such a claim is actualized (see #103[/FONT][FONT=&]) --while population continues to skyrocket, [/FONT]damaging the ecosystem even more[FONT=&]![/FONT]

[FONT=&]Well, how can the Conundrum be resolved? FIRST, by recognizing that we are part of Nature. SECOND, by acknowledging that [/FONT]we need personal interactions with the natural ecology for our own psychological health[FONT=&]. THIRD, by recognizing that [/FONT]all species need to avoid having excessive numbers, if an ecosystem is to remain stable. FOURTH, by accepting the fact that there is no such thing as a "right to breed" (it is actually a privilege that must be earned, and all through Nature, when it is not earned, offspring die). FIFTH, by acknowledging that we are the top predators on Earth. SIXTH, by accepting that that position gives us Responsibilities, and among those responsibilities is the importance of recognizing that the only predators that can "take us on" are ourselves. SEVENTH, by acknowledging the facts that unborn humans are mere-animal entities, not persons with right-to-life. EIGHTH, by noticing that abortion qualifies as a legitimate way that humans can prey on humans, since it is about persons versus animals, instead of, as in war, persons versus persons.

I have seen some very convincing papers that put the maximum number of humans viable at even near our present lifestyle at between 1 and 3 billions. What do you say? How should we solve the problem?
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

I have seen some very convincing papers that put the maximum number of humans viable at even near our present lifestyle at between 1 and 3 billions. What do you say? How should we solve the problem?

Well.....



....that's one solution. ;)
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

Well.....



....that's one solution. ;)


Apocalypse is such a wonderful way to go. It has magnificence and grandeur enough for us all.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

I have seen some very convincing papers that put the maximum number of humans viable at even near our present lifestyle at between 1 and 3 billions. What do you say? How should we solve the problem?

If we're strictly talking about reducing the human population, there are a few ways to do it.

1. Have more abortions.

2. Start eliminating those who have advance alzheimers and other severe things like anencephaly.

3. Have reproduction policies like China does. "One child" policy for example.

4. Start up a genocide. You know some history examples.

5. Create a very deadly virus like the T--Virus or the rage virus (Resident Evil and 28 days later series.) and make a safe haven for a few million/billon humans or so. After awhile, create a cure that wipes out those infected.

6. More advanced birth control.

7. Sterilize people who are in no position to raise offspring.
 
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Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

Many abortion opponents blather about killing persons (like old folks) as an alternative to abortion, which involves killing unborn human mere-animal entities. I don't know why they think such an alternative makes sense (perhaps the abortion opponents should volunteer as the persons to be killed?). Anyway, the following argument depends on the Objectively Measurable Fact that unborn humans are, provably, mere-animal entities.

[FONT=&] We know that predators exist by killing other organisms; [/FONT]the killing they do is necessary for the health of ANY ecosystem[FONT=&]. So, imagine that we humans were NOT at the top of the food pyramid, that there were predators accustomed to hunting us down and eating us. Actually, we know that was exactly the Natural situation back in Africa before hominins or pre-hominins invented the first "distance" weapon (see "[/FONT]The Calvin Throwing Hypothesis[FONT=&]").[/FONT]

[FONT=&]Since those long-ago days, the predators were mostly killed, with many going extinct (like giant cave bears) and others becoming seriously endangered (tigers), as our use of distance weapons improved. In one sense, the human species is in the same situation as wild deer in a forest that has no wolves --massive overpopulation results, and [/FONT]the whole ecosystem suffers[FONT=&]. THAT'S why natural predation is necessary![/FONT]

[FONT=&]Since humans have become the top predators on the planet, we can and do replace wolves with respect to deer. And we have wars, describe-able as humans basically preying on other humans. That sort-of worked to keep human population from exploding, until the A-bomb was invented. Then large-scale war became too dangerous, with the result that we have since only had "brush fire" wars, relatively trivial with respect to population growth.[/FONT]

[FONT=&]Do you see the Modern Conundrum? The global ecosystem NEEDS fewer humans in the world, in order to stabilize, but humans claim to have "right to life" --and the more they get-along with each other, the more such a claim is actualized (see #103[/FONT][FONT=&]) --while population continues to skyrocket, [/FONT]damaging the ecosystem even more[FONT=&]![/FONT]

[FONT=&]Well, how can the Conundrum be resolved? FIRST, by recognizing that we are part of Nature. SECOND, by acknowledging that [/FONT]we need personal interactions with the natural ecology for our own psychological health[FONT=&]. THIRD, by recognizing that [/FONT]all species need to avoid having excessive numbers, if an ecosystem is to remain stable. FOURTH, by accepting the fact that there is no such thing as a "right to breed" (it is actually a privilege that must be earned, and all through Nature, when it is not earned, offspring die). FIFTH, by acknowledging that we are the top predators on Earth. SIXTH, by accepting that that position gives us Responsibilities, and among those responsibilities is the importance of recognizing that the only predators that can "take us on" are ourselves. SEVENTH, by acknowledging the facts that unborn humans are mere-animal entities, not persons with right-to-life. EIGHTH, by noticing that abortion qualifies as a legitimate way that humans can prey on humans, since it is about persons versus animals, instead of, as in war, persons versus persons.
This nonsensical, utilitarian "logic" falsifies itself, so no serious reply is even needed. This really belongs on a conspiracy theory or crank site anyway, right up their with Scientology and other rubbish.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

This nonsensical, utilitarian "logic" falsifies itself, so no serious reply is even needed. This really belongs on a conspiracy theory or crank site anyway, right up their with Scientology and other rubbish.

A standard rant post. Seems like you engaged FutureIncoming before.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

I agree with the OP. There are too many people on the planet. We need to reduce our birth rate. While I don't promote population control as a reason to allow abortion, a side effect of abortion is that there are fewer people on the planet than there otherwise would be.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

This nonsensical, utilitarian "logic" falsifies itself, so no serious reply is even needed. This really belongs on a conspiracy theory or crank site anyway, right up their with Scientology and other rubbish.
I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way. I meant to say your post was a rant post not FutureIncoming's OP.

If you think his OP is full of error, I would like for you to point them out specifically.
 
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Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

I agree with the OP. There are too many people on the planet. We need to reduce our birth rate. While I don't promote population control as a reason to allow abortion, a side effect of abortion is that there are fewer people on the planet than there otherwise would be.

No, you allow abortion because it's the right thing to do. The population control part is just a happy byproduct of defending women's right to exist.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

I have seen some very convincing papers that put the maximum number of humans viable at even near our present lifestyle at between 1 and 3 billions. What do you say? How should we solve the problem?
Part of the reason I wrote this was to convince folks that if they breed like mindless animals, then in-essence they are not actually smarter than mindless animals (and probably don't deserve to be called "persons"). I'm generically against killing people unless they deserve it for bad actions (like serial killers commit bad actions), but that means the only practical way to reduce the human global population is to convince almost everyone to abstain from breeding at the current dangerous rate, one way (contraception) or another (abortion).

Some approximate relevant numbers: Total annual global death rate from all causes, 50 million per year. Total birth rate, 130 million per year. Net annual world population growth, 80 million per year. Total abortion rate, 30 million per year. Annual global pregnancy rate thus computes to be about 160 million per year (but actually higher because of natural miscarriages), but we only need 60 million to stabilize the global population (of which 10 million, 1/6 can be expected to naturally miscarry), and less than that to cause a population decline. There is lots of room in those numbers to try to convince folks to use more or better contraception.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

Part of the reason I wrote this was to convince folks that if they breed like mindless animals, then in-essence they are not actually smarter than mindless animals (and probably don't deserve to be called "persons"). I'm generically against killing people unless they deserve it for bad actions (like serial killers commit bad actions), but that means the only practical way to reduce the human global population is to convince almost everyone to abstain from breeding at the current dangerous rate, one way (contraception) or another (abortion).

Some approximate relevant numbers: Total annual global death rate from all causes, 50 million per year. Total birth rate, 130 million per year. Net annual world population growth, 80 million per year. Total abortion rate, 30 million per year. Annual global pregnancy rate thus computes to be about 160 million per year (but actually higher because of natural miscarriages), but we only need 60 million to stabilize the global population (of which 10 million, 1/6 can be expected to naturally miscarry), and less than that to cause a population decline. There is lots of room in those numbers to try to convince folks to use more or better contraception.

One possible approach, certainly.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

This nonsensical,
A WORTHLESS CLAIM. Unsupported by any evidence whatsoever.

utilitarian "logic"
LOGIC IS INDEPENDENT OF THE USES TO WHICH IT IS PUT. I stated up-front that the argument depends on the FACT that unborn humans are mere-animal entities. Do you have any data even **hinting** at some other conclusion?

falsifies itself,
A WORTHLESS CLAIM. Unsupported by any evidence whatsoever. If you are so certain it falsifies itself, why don't you explain how it does that, in detail? (Possible answer: You can't, and were just blathering a Stupid Lie.)

so no serious reply is even needed.
HAW! HAW!! HAW!!! This is a Debate site! The first post of this Thread was done to spark a Debate about how it might be an invalid argument. YOU have miserably failed to offer any such thing --bald/unsupported claims are inherently worthless.

This really belongs on a conspiracy theory or crank site anyway,
FALSE; A STUPID LIE. See just above.

right up their with Scientology and other rubbish.
IT IS THE BLATHERINGS OF ABORTION OPPONENTS THAT USUALLY QUALIFIES AS RUBBISH, equivalent to Scientology, etc. Mostly because they typically spout bald/unsupported statements.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

No, you allow abortion because it's the right thing to do. The population control part is just a happy byproduct of defending women's right to exist.
There are plenty of women who WANT offspring. That alone is one reason why there are about 130 million births per year. Sure, some percentage of those births are not wanted, but you are implying that if only wanted births happened, that alone would lead to a stable or falling population, and I don't know of any data supporting such a claim. In other words, if every woman was allowed easy access to abortion, do you really think the abortion rate would increase by 80 million or more per year (equal to or greater than the current growth rate)? I don't.
 
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Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

A WORTHLESS CLAIM. Unsupported by any evidence whatsoever.
My logical evidence is of course, superior to your rubbish empirical evidence, which has no validity here.

LOGIC IS INDEPENDENT OF THE USES TO WHICH IT IS PUT. I stated up-front that the argument depends on the FACT that unborn humans are mere-animal entities. Do you have any data even **hinting** at some other conclusion?
Humans are mere animal entities as well, so the argument is meaningless. We can arbitrarily decide some animal entites are worth more than others, if though nothing else by fiat, and this of course is justified.

A WORTHLESS CLAIM. Unsupported by any evidence whatsoever. If you are so certain it falsifies itself, why don't you explain how it does that, in detail?

(Possible answer: You can't, and were just blathering a Stupid Lie.)
More likely that I don't like to waste pearls on uneducated swine.

HAW! HAW!! HAW!!! This is a Debate site! The first post of this Thread was done to spark a Debate about how it might be an invalid argument. YOU have miserably failed to offer any such thing --bald/unsupported claims are inherently worthless.
I'm aware that your rubbish and nonsensical claims which fail even to understand basic biological definitions are unsupported by any evidence, other than the 2 bit blogs you purport to be "evidence" that wouldn't even make a cut as sources in a high school essay, but I'll bite anyway.

The reality is your assertions of 'right this', 'right that', have no 'evidence' to support the existence of said 'rights' to begin with by the very definition of 'evidence' that you continually assert. As far as that type of 'evidence' goes, only the law of the jungle exists, and the only right is might - meaning as long as abortion opponents have the will and the guns of the state necessary to force their anti-abortion laws onto you and other rabble, they have all the 'right' they need.

And there's pretty much nothing you can do about it, other than pray to whatever god you worship that he'll smite them for you. He he ;)

FALSE; A STUPID LIE. See just above.
Your blathering posting style is so stupid it's almost not worth responding to.

IT IS THE BLATHERINGS OF ABORTION OPPONENTS THAT USUALLY QUALIFIES AS RUBBISH, equivalent to Scientology, etc. Mostly because they typically spout bald/unsupported statements.
It doesn't matter what cranks think about them, they have no power to affect the decisions we make, so we'll simply do it if for no other reason, because we have the might to do so, and therefore the only 'right' that we need - there's certainly no 'universal code' within the animal kingdom which we're a part of that we can't simply enslave and 'force to give birth' whoever the hell we want, for whatever reason we want, so we'll continue to do just that, and protesting it is as futile as protesting an ant colony's use of caterpillars as 'slave labor', unless you have the weapons and might to put a stop to it...

...which of course you never will.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

...We can arbitrarily decide...

...so we'll simply do it...

...we need...we can't simply enslave...

...whoever the hell we want, for whatever reason we want, so we'll continue...
I am curious. Just who the **** is this "we" and what makes you part of it?
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

I am curious. Just who the **** is this "we" and what makes you part of it?
We, as in those who have the legal power to do so, and me as in my status as a taxpayer.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

I have seen some very convincing papers that put the maximum number of humans viable at even near our present lifestyle at between 1 and 3 billions. What do you say? How should we solve the problem?

Have everyone who supports abortion volunteer for suicide. Yep, it's a REALLY stupid idea, but no stupider than the one spewed forth in the OP.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

We, as in those who have the legal power to do so, and me as in my status as a taxpayer.
So where and how did you obtain this legal power and why don't you exercise it? What is power without exercise?

BTW, what about all the others who also have the power?
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

So where and how did you obtain this legal power and why don't you exercise it? What is power without exercise?
Eh, when the Republicans gained full government control this election I suppose.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

Eh, when the Republicans gained full government control this election I suppose.
Yea damn the Constitution, go with the mindless uneducated power hungry.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

Yea damn the Constitution, go with the mindless uneducated power hungry.
That's been the only reason the Democrats have been able to win any elections recently.

If we simply scrubbed out the underclass from the popular vote and made property ownership or military service a voting requirement, they'd never likely win an election again. The uneducated, impoverished, and morally degenerate rabble are the only thing that keeps them in office. And the only reason abortion even exists as an industry to begin with for that matter.

You don't see many ladies having abortions, but you sure do plenty of gutter whores.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

The uneducated, impoverished, and morally degenerate rabble are the only thing that keeps them in office.
Trump won with the votes of those you listed.
 
Re: One Argument for why abortion should be legal

Trump won with the votes of those you listed.
Not likely:



Trump won if anything, because he had the support of Putin and nationalist movements which I support in America and Europe.

And if what you said was true, I'm sure you'd be in favor of barring uneducated welfare recipients and fat diabetics from the popular vote - it would mean fewer Republican votes right ;)
 
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