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Indiana bill that would attempt to define abortion as murder

FALSE; FACTS ARE NOT VALUATIONS. For example, it is a **fact** that unborn humans are very different from ordinary babies and children, because only the unborn have attached placentas functioning as vital organs. Any "value judgement" about that relates to what you **call** them --and here we have Huge Precedent: When you encounter different types of humans, don't you routinely mention those differences in terms of "chubby" or "tall" or "blonde" or "freckled" and so on? So it is Stupid Hypocrisy to **refuse** to verbally acknowledge the **fact** that unborn humans are very different from ordinary babies and children.


YOU HAVE THE FREEDOM to choose a valuation-perspective founded in Ignorance, Delusion, Stupid Prejudice, Stupid Hypocrisy. But that doesn't make you right.


GONNA TAKE MORE THAN THAT; you need a 3/4 majority to Amend the Constitution. No simple "outweighing" will suffice.


FALSE. Abortions have been legal for thousands of years in various places (like China). Mostly because of overpopulation. Over here in the West, what we have are greedy preachers wanting more tithers to get born, for their own selfish benefit.


A STUPID LIE. Abortion does not target the "populace".


YOUR MERE CLAIM IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT EVIDENCE. **Calling** something an "atrocity" doesn't mean it actually is that thing. Prove It!

As part of your proof, why don't you consider a scenario in which **every** human pregnancy results in quadruplets. The relatively famous Duggar family would then include more than 70 offspring, all of which need food, clothing and shelter. Quadruple all the kids on every ordinary city street, too. And then think about quadrupling the impact of that human population upon the global ecosystem. In another message in another Thread I pointed out that there is a 10:1 ratio that must be maintained, in terms of the biomass of food and food-eaters. That means when human population goes up, the biomass dedicated to food supplies needs to go up 10 times as much.


A MALTHUSIAN CATASTROPHE WILL STAIN EVERYTHING FAR WORSE. And you are working to bring one on far sooner than later!
All subjective again.

You have no "facts" that are not based on a subjective judgement. Unborn babies are different than born babies, sure. Just like born babies are different than toddlers, adolosecents, teenagers, young adults, adults and older folk. And all of them are someone's children.

So?

Abortion, hate to break it to you, is not in the Constitution. There is no need for an amendment, just needs the proper Supreme Court decisions.

Your Malthusian fear-mongering has been around for as long as, well, Malthus. He died way back in 1834... was wrong then is wrong now. We will solve for this as we always do...

As long as we remain a culture of life we will survive.
 
Only two things worth continuing after your "responses".
REALLY? Only two things you disagree with? Good Show! Because one of the things not commented-on below was about how unborn humans CAN be held responsible for their actions, exactly as mosquitoes can be held responsible for their actions....

The 14th amendment article you supplied did not overcome the invalidity of the 14th
THAT WASN'T WHY I SUPPLIED IT. The main reason was, that article mentions how the 14th Amendment has been used in favor of many sorts of rights of citizens. If the 14th was invalid, then the basis of those rights disappears. The text I wrote associated with that link, "Your mere claim is worthless without evidence", is the more-important thing. Because you made a bald claim, that the 14th was invalid, without providing any evidence whatsoever. Why should that claim be believed? Furthermore, I get to ask you to not link to a biased site, the way you asked me to not link biased sites claiming humans cause 33,000 species to go extinct every year. Do remember it has been something like 150 years since that Amendment was declared to have been ratified, and if there really was a valid argument that its ratification was invalid, shouldn't that argument have led to a lawsuit and, eventually, the Supreme Court?

and so you still have a problem proving it a constitutionally appropriate ratification.
NOPE. See above. The mere claim of invalidity is worthless without evidence, when it has legally been considered valid for about a century and a half.

Second, no, all prejudice is not wrong.
DEPENDS ON THE DEFINITION. More about that below.

I prejudge all the swimming holes that I might at some time in the future dive head first into...especially the ones with water that is so obscured as not to be able to see what is below the surface.
YOU DO THAT FOR A VALID REASON (can break neck jumping headfirst into too-shallow water). But see these first two definitions (from my handy paperback dictionary):
1. Bias, favorable or unfavorable.
2. Unreasoning objection to or hatred of persons or things.

Many abortion opponents exhibit a combination of those two definitions, "unreasoning favoring of unborn humans" --the LACK of a valid reason is why that sort of prejudice is just as wrong as claiming all Samaritans are bad people. I'm snipping the rest of what you wrote about pre-judging.
 
https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2017/bills/house/1134#document-169c5a8e

Indiana Bill No 1134



So, whilst GOP have a supermajority in Indiana, this is clearly an unconstitutional bill. It's likely the intention is to trigger a lawsuit so Roe V Wade can be challenged.

Coalition fighting abortion bills | Indiana | www.journalgazette.net



This bill won't pass, it's just a big waste of money right now (ever fiscally responsible, our GOP) but this is the kind of bill/lawsuit that could start to probe at Roe v Wade over the next four years (esp if Ginsburg or Kennedy kick the bucket). By the definitions put forward in the bill (that, legally, life begins when sperm meets egg) this would also define miscarriage as manslaughter.



Hear that ladies? Mr Kruse knows best about your life and your pregnancy.

All from the party that wants to keep government out of our lives :roll:

To anyone that wishes to voice their displeasure:
Curt Nisly | State of Indiana House of Representatives
Phone: 317-234-2993 | 1-800-382-9841

Dennis Kruse | Indiana Senate Republicans
P: 800-382-9467 or 317-232-9400

Please explain why "this is clearly an unconstitutional bill." If one Supreme Court may magically make a right to abortion appear in the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, why, pray tell, may another Supreme Court not also magically make that right disappear from that clause? The trouble with making the Constitution say whatever you want it to is that someone who takes the opposite view can pull that same trick later on, and make it say what they want it to.
 
All subjective again.
FALSE --you even made it false by writing:

Unborn babies are different than born babies, sure.
PER OBJECTIVE DATA.

Just like born babies are different than toddlers, adolosecents, teenagers, young adults, adults and older folk.
PER OBJECTIVE DATA. All those stages have different names **precisely** because there exist ways of Objectively telling them apart.

And all of them are someone's children.
TRUE, BUT PROBLEMATIC, RIGHT ALONG WITH THIS FACT: The word "baby" is a "term of endearment" that can be applied to any human at any age. Therefore it should be perfectly OK if I called **you** "baby/child", right? Perhaps you should read this.

You have no "facts" that are not based on a subjective judgement.
FALSE. Adolescence begins with the onset of puberty, for example --that's an Objectively Measurable thing. For humans in many modern societies, "adulthood" **could** be associated with the cessation of adolescent growth spurts --that's an Objectively Measurable thing! (It's normally simply associated with "age" --yet that **also** is an Objectively Measurable thing!) And so on. Unborn humans generally have attached placentas as vital organs (an Objectively Measurable thing), while born babies don't (also an Objectively Measurable Thing).

IF THAT WAS ABOUT THE GREEDY PREACHERS, the point is, for thousands of years they have made unproved claims regarding "human life". Lots of folks believe the claims because they have been indoctrinated since birth. But that doesn't make the claims correct, not in the slightest.

Abortion, hate to break it to you, is not in the Constitution.
PERSONAL LIBERTY IS IN THE CONSTITUTION. For persons, not for mere-animal entities. Abortion just happens to be an exercise of personal liberty. I've yet to see you offer the slightest bit of evidence even hinting that unborn humans qualify as persons.

There is no need for an amendment, just needs the proper Supreme Court decisions.
THE CONSTITUTION & AMENDMENTS DO NOT USE THE WORD "HUMAN" EVEN ONCE. Therefore, on what Constitutional basis can the Supreme Court conclude that all humans are persons? You DO know that Supreme Court decisions need to find a basis in the Constitution, don't you?

Your Malthusian fear-mongering has been around for as long as, well, Malthus.
YOUR WORTHLESS **CLAIMS** OF "FEAR-MONGERING" HAVE BEEN AROUND AS LONG AS YOU HAVE SEEN FACTS ABOUT MALTHUSIAN CATASTROPHES. But facts are facts. They are not inherently fearsome; they are simply and only facts.

He died way back in 1834... was wrong then
DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH VALID DATA.

is wrong now.
A MERE CLAIM, UNSUPPORTED BY ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER. I've elsewhere presented a long list of existing/real consequences of human overpopulation, almost all of which are getting worse, not improving with time. Those trends must change to prevent a future Malthusian Catastrophe.

We will solve for this as we always do...
A MERE CLAIM, AND PROVEN FALSE. Else the culture on Easter Island would not have collapsed. Else the Mayan culture would not have collapsed. Predictions of the future are always problematic, but here is one that might get your attention: Increasing population requires increases in the supply of many resources. Meanwhile businesses traditionally try to **restrict** resources to maximize profits. Those two contradictory facts will inevitably lead to a decline in average living standards. But living standards can only decline so far, before mass starvation of a Malthusian Catastrophe begins....

As long as we remain a culture of life we will survive.
A STUPID LIE. Your "culture of life" is killing entire species at 1000 times the natural background rate, remember? OH---THAT'S RIGHT; YOU EXHIBIT STUPID PREJUDICE ABOUT ONLY ONE TYPE OF LIFE. Tsk, tsk!
 
Please explain why "this is clearly an unconstitutional bill."
Quoting the quote in the Original Post, regarding a synopsis of the bill:
Protection of life. Repeals the statutes authorizing and regulating abortion. Finds that human physical life begins when a human ovum is fertilized by a human sperm. Asserts a compelling state interest in protecting human physical life from the moment that human physical life begins. Redefines "human being" for purposes of the criminal code to conform to the finding that human physical life begins when a human ovum is fertilized by a human sperm. Makes other conforming changes.
FIRST, the Constitution and its Amendments use the word "person" throughout, and don't use the word "human" even once. Persons have rights, not humans, so long as there is nothing in the Constitution linking human-ness with personhood.

SECOND, modern lawmakers **tend** to pay attention to modern scientific data when writing laws. The Indiana law basically cherry-picks certain scientific data, while totally ignoring all other scientific data, such as the data that has been gathered on the subject of personhood. That's the data which has allowed some scientists to declare that dolphins qualify as persons --those dolphins had to pass lots of tests to earn that declaration! Well, what happens when humans are given the same tests? See this page for some "pig facts" (scroll down to see them). Young-enough humans always **fail** all the tests that dolphins can pass! So why should those humans be granted person status? WELL, CURRENTLY, we have Laws that were written **long** before the relevant scientific data was discovered, regarding personhood. Those laws grant "legal person" status to humans at birth --the unborn are ignored. Now while it is plain that unborn humans cannot be tested the way ordinary infants and toddlers can be tested, it should be obvious that if those born humans cannot pass any personhood tests, then most certainly IF the **less-developed** unborn could be tested, THEN they also would fail all the personhood tests. That Indiana law is blatantly Prejudiced/Discriminatory, with respect to **persons**. What if a flying saucer landed in Indianapolis and peaceful extraterrestrials emerged? "Hey! They're not human! Let's shoot 'em!" (only humans are protected by that law, see?) Because the Constitution focuses on **person** rights, States should do the same.

THIRD, it runs smack into the 13th Amendment, which generally prohibits involuntary servitude. It is a known fact that unborn humans steal biological resources from the bodies of pregnant women, and also dump toxic biowastes into the bodies of those women. To force a woman to stay pregnant, when she doesn't want those things done to her body, is tantamount to enslaving her, to reduce her existence to that of a combination of "pantry" and "toilet".
 
Parenthood is not slavery, that's horrifically stupid and tone deaf to the plight of actual slaves, try again. :roll:

(Or don't.)
 
Parenthood is not slavery ...
YOU HAVE CHANGED THE TOPIC BETWEEN US. I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about why we kill parasites almost automatically upon discovering them. After you answer that question, I'll explain why that answer is relevant to the Overall Abortion Debate, and then we can move on to some other topic.
 
YOU HAVE CHANGED THE TOPIC BETWEEN US. I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about why we kill parasites almost automatically upon discovering them. After you answer that question, I'll explain why that answer is relevant to the Overall Abortion Debate, and then we can move on to some other topic.

Parenthood is not slavery.

Human beings are not parasites to other human beings.

What you have said demonstrates a lack of knowledge, now that said lack has been corrected, what else do you have?


P.S. Malthus's notions are discredited and wrong, and I've always noticed how Neo-Malthusians who want humans to die for the greater good never volunteer to go first. :lol:

But they're oh so happy to go after their social undesirables of choice for culling, of course. :roll:
 
Parenthood is not slavery.
WRONG TOPIC; ignored at this time.

Human beings are not parasites to other human beings.
NOT AN ANSWER TO MY QUESTION ABOUT ACTUAL PARASITES; ignored at this time --just like I'm snipping/ignoring the rest of what you wrote, which wasn't about the requested topic. The whole point of Msg #86 was to simplify our little Debate. Failing to stay on-topic is exactly what leads to multiple long posts.

SO: Please answer my question, regarding providing details of why we kill parasites almost automatically upon discovering them.
 
REALLY? Only two things you disagree with? Good Show! Because one of the things not commented-on below was about how unborn humans CAN be held responsible for their actions, exactly as mosquitoes can be held responsible for their actions....


THAT WASN'T WHY I SUPPLIED IT. The main reason was, that article mentions how the 14th Amendment has been used in favor of many sorts of rights of citizens. If the 14th was invalid, then the basis of those rights disappears. The text I wrote associated with that link, "Your mere claim is worthless without evidence", is the more-important thing. Because you made a bald claim, that the 14th was invalid, without providing any evidence whatsoever. Why should that claim be believed? Furthermore, I get to ask you to not link to a biased site, the way you asked me to not link biased sites claiming humans cause 33,000 species to go extinct every year. Do remember it has been something like 150 years since that Amendment was declared to have been ratified, and if there really was a valid argument that its ratification was invalid, shouldn't that argument have led to a lawsuit and, eventually, the Supreme Court?


NOPE. See above. The mere claim of invalidity is worthless without evidence, when it has legally been considered valid for about a century and a half.


DEPENDS ON THE DEFINITION. More about that below.


YOU DO THAT FOR A VALID REASON (can break neck jumping headfirst into too-shallow water). But see these first two definitions (from my handy paperback dictionary):
1. Bias, favorable or unfavorable.
2. Unreasoning objection to or hatred of persons or things.

Many abortion opponents exhibit a combination of those two definitions, "unreasoning favoring of unborn humans" --the LACK of a valid reason is why that sort of prejudice is just as wrong as claiming all Samaritans are bad people. I'm snipping the rest of what you wrote about pre-judging.
No, those most certainly were not the only things I disagreed with, but all the rest was just your opinion against mine. So if we are just gonna trade opinions and go on and on like that, I have done it before and am not as inclined to banter about it as opposing ideologues.

Does not matter what rights have been established on the back of an impostor amendment, if it is invalid it is, ummm, INVALID. As to length of time it was used and that being thought to be some sort of argument towards validity? Sorry, if something is wrong it was always wrong and time does not change that. Slavery was the established law since before our founding, does that mean that it should have been kept? No.

We will go through its validity step by step then. See if you know your constitution. What does the constitution say about amendments... for them to be considered constitutional?

We prejudge and discriminate ALL THE TIME, doing one thing in favor of another. Called decision making taking into consideration trade offs, opportunity costs.

You have a prejudice against the beliefs of anti abortion stances. An unreasoning disfavoring of fellow American humans, those yet to be born but in the process we all must follow to get where we are here debating...yes, unreasoning disfavor of fellow unborn fellow citizens of the world in general. Malthus did not die of starvation, I am not either AND likewise I rather doubt you are in any danger succumbing to hunger.
 
No, those most certainly were not the only things I disagreed with, but all the rest was just your opinion against mine.
NOT WHEN I HAVE FACTS AND YOU DON'T. Such as the fact that we **do** hold mosquitoes responsible for their actions. It is Perfectly Consistent to hold unborn humans responsible for their actions.

So if we are just gonna trade opinions and go on and on like that, I have done it before and am not as inclined to banter about it as opposing ideologues.
YOUR MERE CLAIM ABOUT "TRADING OPINIONS" IS JUST A CLAIM. Why don't you **prove** that your opponent is offering no more than an opinion, eh? Because your claim is just an opinion!

Does not matter what rights have been established on the back of an impostor amendment, if it is invalid it is, ummm, INVALID.
AGREED. However, the "if" needs to be proved, not merely claimed.

As to length of time it was used and that being thought to be some sort of argument towards validity?
NOT WHAT I WROTE. I said that doubters have had 150 years or so to show that the claim of ratification was erroneous --and they haven't done it. I conclude they are just blathering an opinion, not stating a fact.

Sorry, if something is wrong it was always wrong and time does not change that.
TRUE. But how to determine if something is Objectively wrong? I've written about that elsewhere, about the inherent superiority of "ethics" over "morals".

Slavery was the established law since before our founding, does that mean that it should have been kept? No.
AGREED. Persons were negatively impacted. But since abortion does not target persons, how exactly is it "wrong"?

We will go through its validity [...] for them to be considered constitutional?
They have to be ratified by 3/4 of the States or State Conventions (did you know it is possible for the People to Amend the Constitution in a way that entirely bypasses both the Federal and State legislatures?). I'm aware that your CLAIM is that that didn't happen for the 14th Amendment. Which means you need to prove that those who claimed it did happen, lied.

We prejudge and discriminate
TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Discrimination usually involves selecting something based on data, entirely equivalent to a "judgement call"; prejudging means making a choice while the data is still incomplete.

ALL THE TIME, doing one thing in favor of another.
SEE ABOVE. In ordinary decision-making, prejudgments are far less common than regular judgments.

Called decision making taking into consideration trade offs, opportunity costs.
INVOLVES FAR MORE COMPLETE DATA THAN PREJUDGING.

You have a prejudice against the beliefs of anti abortion stances.
FALSE; I have nearly the maximum possible data on that subject. Didn't you see my list of many mostly-different anti-abortion arguments, with details of their flaws? If you show me a brand-new anti-abortion argument, I might prejudge that it probably contains a flaw **due**to**experience**, but I won't **say** it contains flaw before actually finding the flaw --and I will present that flaw in the same text where I say the argument is flawed.

An unreasoning disfavoring of fellow American humans, those yet to be born
FALSE! It is perfectly reasonable to disfavor assailants that steal bodily resources from someone, dump toxic biowastes into the body of someone, and more.

but in the process we all must follow to get where we are here debating...
AN UNCLEAR SEMI-STATEMENT.

yes, unreasoning disfavor of fellow unborn fellow citizens of the world in general.
FALSE, for exactly the same reason mentioned above, regarding unborn American humans.

Malthus did not die of starvation,
NOT RELEVANT; his time was near the start of a technological revolution in increasing food production.

I am not either AND likewise I rather doubt you are in any danger succumbing to hunger.
NOW IS NOT THE FUTURE. The most recent technological food-increase advancement, "the green revolution", is mostly over. Whenever you encounter the word "sustainable" it means "**fixed**output**", and does not refer to an ever-increasing output that matches global human population growth.
 
There is no rational reason to voice displeasure. The legal definition should match the objectively true scientific definition. :shrug:

Bigotry is an ugly look.

Killing humans is morally justified at times... fact.
 
Please explain why "this is clearly an unconstitutional bill." If one Supreme Court may magically make a right to abortion appear in the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, why, pray tell, may another Supreme Court not also magically make that right disappear from that clause? The trouble with making the Constitution say whatever you want it to is that someone who takes the opposite view can pull that same trick later on, and make it say what they want it to.

So you are saying that Separate But Equal being found unconstitutional might have simply been a magical right that was found or can some things actually be universally agreed to as unconstitutional?
 
Kruse is a moron. Viewing the ultrasound does not change the minds of the majority of women seeking abortion.

Relationship Between Ultrasound Viewing and Proceeding to Ab... : Obstetrics & Gynecology

I would disagree with you. The ultrasound image allows the mother to see her baby, which brings a reality that the baby is real and not 'a bunch of cells' that the abortion industry has sold to women from day one...

...and finally calling abortion exactly what it is, murder.
 
I would disagree with you. The ultrasound image allows the mother to see her baby, which brings a reality that the baby is real and not 'a bunch of cells' that the abortion industry has sold to women from day one...

I posted a source.


...and finally calling abortion exactly what it is, murder.

Legal abortion is in no way, shape or form murder. Murder, by definition, is an illegal act.
 
The ultrasound image allows the mother to see her baby, which brings a reality that the baby is real
That may be true for the women who are victims of the moronic abstinence only education and sadly make up large numbers of women with unintended pregnancies. The vast majority of women are far better informed than that and than those who ignorantly call abortion murder.
 
Hear that ladies? Mr Kruse knows best about your life and your pregnancy. ?????
I guess that means a man has no right to express their opinion?

There was (and is) a man who had a lot to say about life...His name was/is Jesus.
Its not only the women's body or the man's...its a body lend to us to use by our Maker.
He knew how many hairs on our head before we conceived.
Hitler killed....we eliminate life....? We do not allow future sons and daughters to live?
Than we are ...are own god?
Every single person on this forum and every single person on the face of the earth has one thing in common.....We were NOT aborted.
Life is the greatest gift possible....we have it....and yet we deny our future sons and daughters?????!!!!
 
Hear that ladies? Mr Kruse knows best about your life and your pregnancy. ?????
I guess that means a man has no right to express their opinion?

There was (and is) a man who had a lot to say about life...His name was/is Jesus.
Its not only the women's body or the man's...its a body lend to us to use by our Maker.
He knew how many hairs on our head before we conceived.

Your god is not relevant to people who do not believe in him/her.


Every single person on this forum and every single person on the face of the earth has one thing in common.....We were NOT aborted.


The woman that birthed me should have aborted all of her pregnancies. She had no business giving birth.


Life is the greatest gift possible....we have it....and yet we deny our future sons and daughters?????!!!!

Another one without a uterus wanting to dictate to those of us with one what we can or cannot do with the contents of ours......
 
Your god is not relevant to people who do not believe in him/her.





The woman that birthed me should have aborted all of her pregnancies. She had no business giving birth.




Another one without a uterus wanting to dictate to those of us with one what we can or cannot do with the contents of ours......

OMFG, knock off the naked deceit and your blatant man-hating.

Your edgelord shtick about your mom is noxiously tiresome.
 
Hear that ladies? Mr Kruse knows best about your life and your pregnancy. ?????
I guess that means a man has no right to express their opinion?

There was (and is) a man who had a lot to say about life...His name was/is Jesus.
Its not only the women's body or the man's...its a body lend to us to use by our Maker.
He knew how many hairs on our head before we conceived.
Hitler killed....we eliminate life....? We do not allow future sons and daughters to live?
Than we are ...are own god?
Every single person on this forum and every single person on the face of the earth has one thing in common.....We were NOT aborted.
Life is the greatest gift possible....we have it....and yet we deny our future sons and daughters?????!!!!
Isn't life wonderful? Every once in a while we get a brilliant post such as this to shed light where none has shone before. What would the world be without such morsels of wisdom?
 
I would disagree with you.
OF COURSE YOU CAN DISAGREE WITH FACTS. That won't ever make you right, though.

The ultrasound image allows the mother to see her baby,
BAD DATA. An unborn human is **provably** very different from an ordinary "baby". Therefore ultrasound allows a woman to see an unborn human, not an actual "baby". The main difference is the placenta, which is a vital organ for an unborn human, but not a vital organ for an ordinary baby. For thousands of years Nature has fooled humans into thinking that only the "fetus" portion of an unborn human matters, while all that time much of the placenta had the same DNA as the fetus, and thus was an important part of the overall unborn human.

which brings a reality that the baby
NOPE! NOT A "BABY". It is only an unborn human animal entity, and as mindless as a rat. Furthermore, it is stealing biological resources from the woman, dumping toxic biowastes into the body of the woman, AND infusing addictive and mind-altering substances into the body of the woman. She is under NO obligation to tolerate such assaults!

is real and not 'a bunch of cells' that the abortion industry has sold to women from day one...
FOR THE FIRST WEEK OR SO AFTER CONCEPTION, the "bunch of cells" description is actually the most accurate description of an unborn human. After it invades the womb and starts constructing a placenta, it begins to organize that bunch of cells (the "embryo" stage). When the organization process is finished, the "fetal" stage begins, which encompasses by far the majority of a pregnancy --and, yes, during that time it should no longer be called "a bunch of cells".

...and finally calling abortion exactly what it is, murder.
FALSE. Killing an unwanted assailant-animal is NEVER "murder". The word "murder" specifically applies to killing persons, not animals. An example person would be an intelligent extraterrestrial alien peacefully descending the ramp of a flying saucer.
 
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