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Openminded, looking for intelligent arguments.

1) Is abortion wrong?
Depends, once it gets past a certain stage, for example when the fetus would be viable outside the uterus, yes it would be wrong. Otherwise no. you asked to explain our take on this as well. Let me see if I can try to explain it as I see it. People make mistakes, being forced to have an unwanted child would only confound the mistake further. Let me give you a scenario, a 14 year old run away starts having sex while she is high as a kite on cocaine, she gets pregnant, she wants to get an abortion but the government has ruled them illegal, do you think that that kid going to grow up in an environment that is beneficial to the kid? More than likely, no.

So, I guess my argument comes more from thinking of the child that is unwanted yet the mother was forced to have it, what kind of life is that kid going to have? I feel that children should be entitled to growing up in an environment where they are cared for, loved, and nourished, if you can't provide those, then you have no business having a kid.

2) Should abortion be illegal? No. Reasons: See Above.

But doesn't your scenario imply that you are not treating the fetus/embryo as a human? Certainly I agree that she shouldn't bring a child into this world, but would it be alright to kill a living infant to prevent them from growing up in that scenario? What is your reasoning for treating a fetus viable outside the uterus differently from say, 3 days before then it would almost be viable?

Remember, I'm asking questions, trying to get more information about your point of view because I am trying to reevaluate my own.
 
3: Yes, it should be legal. Why? Because no one has a right to tell another person how to live their life. Part of a persons life is in how they view things. In this case it is not up to you or me to tell a person, or force a person, to believe that a ZEF is a person. Nor do we have a right to tell a person what they can or cannot do with their body.

We don't have a right to tell other people how to live their life? How about telling them not to steal or murder? How about forcing them to pay taxes? Not to drink and drive? The argument usually made here is that these affect another person, but couldn't you at least make the case that the ZEF is another person, and that therefore there is a role for regulating that interaction?
 
Hi, Beachdoc. Didin't know you were on DP... long time no see. How's things?

Um, I'm not sure I am who you think I am. I have used this in other locations a lot time ago, but I've posted as inpursuitoftruth in the past. I'm doing well though, thank you.
 
If the woman lets the pregnancy continue to some (debatable) point the balance shifts towards the fetus and the woman does have an obligation to sustain and protect it.

Is this because of her decision to continue or because of the moral value added with continuing gestation? It sounds like it's the woman's decision to "let" the pregnancy continue that changes things. If the woman didn't know she was pregnant till she was at 24 weeks, should she get a week to decide?
 
Individuals are free to "come down on one side or the other". The problem starts when one group tries to make laws and punish everyone else based on their side and their side alone.

That's why "choice" is the only side that should win for society as a whole.

As has been stated thousands of times now, most pro-choice people always chose life.

Pro-life people should stop trying to outlaw abortion, and their energy and focus should be on preventing unwanted pregnancy.
Birth control. Sex education. Health insurance coverage for birth control. Free birth control. Easy access to birth control. That kind of thing.
Which by the way, is proving that it works.

I do agree that "pro-choice, pro-life" can exist, and that why I asked thy e question in two separate parts, as a moral question and as a legal one. However I do think it is a little presumptuous to tell profile people what they should do. It seems that you don't recognize that there can be different reasonings for why people might be prolife. As far as people making laws, most people recognize that laws can be made when there are interactions between people. Obviously there are circumstances they shouldn't be made depending on the law itself, but the idea that laws shouldn't be made in interactions doesn't seem appropriate. I feel like if the argument is just laws shouldn't be made because it is an individual choice is not a full and complete argument.
 
In your analogy, the homeless person is capable of life outside your house. The unborn child is not capable of survival outside the whom even if it is born healthy and happy.

To any thinking person, the unborn child is at minimum a potential human. Every mother I know says that her babies had personalities both after they were born and BEFORE. Those who say this is not a decision about a person are being less than honest.

IF you are trying to reduce this to a purely personal level, then there is not a good justification for the abortion of a healthy unborn by a healthy mother assuming no other issues UNLESS the unborn is defined as being UN-human.

HOWEVER, this is not a purely personal issue because we live in a society. On the societal level, the government has pretty much washed its hands of the responsibility for the care of unwanted children with the Roe v Wade decision.

The government has laid this responsibility at the feet of the woman who will give birth and must provide care for the rest of the kid's life. This is not a great solution, but it is what we have. To make this a less messy process, the decision on the disposition of the unborn is left to the person who will provide care for the remainder of her life to the unborn. Or not.

The morality of abortion on a personal level and the real world workability of a prohibition on abortion are not in any important way connected in a legal sense.

Legalized Abortion is an adjudicated solution to the SOCIETAL side of this issue. As a doctor charged to help in this, you are only a tool in the collective hand of the society. You happen to be in the room when the procedure occurs, but as a member of society, are as complicit whether you are there or somewhere else.

Legally, I think, your only responsibility is the life and health of the mother. Morally, I think, your only responsibility is to yourself. Societally, there are various jobs done by some for others that are not enjoyable. Necessary is not always pleasant.

I don't envy your decision on this any more than that made by the mothers you serve.

In my argument the homeless person cannot live outside the house, that's the point.

As far as the idea that my only legal responsibility is to the life and health of the mother, that's almost comical. If you know the med-legal environment, then you would realize that my biggest legal liability is an injury to the child during childbirth. It is a big problem.
 
In my opinion abortion is sometimes the correct choice. If it comes down to the life of the unborn or the life of the mother, I cannot pass judgment on any woman who chooses her life over the uncertain. And that becomes even more important if there are others who depend on her for their own well being. I won't presume to judge any woman who agonizes over the choice of allowing the unborn who has no chance for quality of life to end that life early thus sparing her child unbearable suffering. I won't presume the judge the woman carrying multiple babies who chooses to end the pregnancy for some in order to allow a better chance to survive for the others. And I won't presume to play God and judge any woman who is dealing with a pregnancy resulting from rape. And I will honor the choice of any woman who chooses the life of her unborn baby over her own welfare or other considerations.

It is difficult to see aborting a new life purely because that life is unwanted or inconvenient as okay. But again, none of us are given God's powers to judge.

I prefer to leave it to the states and local communities to establish whatever laws fit the social contract based on the values and convictions of the people in those states and communities. If it were left up to me to decide, I would follow the Roe v Wade guidelines--the first three months of the pregnancy are between the woman and her doctor but no doctor should be forced to perform an abortion against his/her moral principles. In the second trimester, the state has some interest in a non-medically necessitated abortion. And in the third trimester the state has a great deal of interest in that unborn life and it should be ended only when it is absolutely medically indicated as necessary.

I do think the issue should be a state and/or local community issue. I strongly feel that our Constitution gives the federal government and the Supreme Court no jurisdiction or authority to dictate what the law will be on this.

In your first paragraph you say you wouldn't judge a woman who aborts ... . But wouldn't you judge a woman who commits infanticide for all those same things? Therefore the crux of your argument doesn't seem to be those situations, but rather the moral value of the conceptus. I'm not saying this isn't right, I'm just saying it's there, and truly the crux of the argument. It seems you allude to this in the discussion of different trimesters. What makes it different in each trimester? What's your reasoning? Does the fact that the threshold of viability has been going down over the last 20 years significantly change this?
 
People can do whatever they want. My philosophy on the abortion matter though is, if you're on the fence stay there, so that you don't get pulled into the emotional quicksand of the opposite sides. Do what your gut tells you to do at the given moment, and maybe later you'll take a lean; but an informed lean.

I think I have enough information about the process and pregnancy, probably more than anyone here. But what I don't have is any sort of monopoly on synthesis. Maybe it is okay to stay undecided, but it's uncomfortable. "Doubt is an uncomfortable condition, but certainty is a ridiculous one".

People cannot do whatever they want though. They can do what they are capable of and willing to accept the consequences of.
 
This isn't a subject you'll get an intelligent, reasonable, or rational response to. I'm sure you've discovered that already, though.

It's very difficult. But someone convinced me in the past. I wish I could find her again. She was very patient and reasoned.
 
For the fourth time in my life I feel compelled to investigate and reconsider my stance on abortion.

A little background. For the last 6 or so years I've settled the argument in my head this way. After seeing the difficulty associated with trying to figure out when "personhood" starts, I managed to justify that even if abortion is wrong in every circumstance, a proper respect for the right to human autonomy, especially over body, which should be one of the most essential and inalienable rights, requires that even if we grant personhood to a fetus we could not tell a woman she could not evict, in the same way that if homeless man came to your house and needed food and shelter for the next 9 months to survive you would not be required to do so and could evict him even if it meant he would die. This meant I wasn't okay with abortions after viability. Anyhow, this has been helpful for me over the last 6 years. As a libertarian it played to my strong sense of personal rights. As a medical professional (OB/Gyn) who has personally seen many miscarriages, it allowed me to recognize the moral and ethical significance of that loss as well.

Unfortunately for me, a thought entered my brain. Essentially that thought is this. My analogy I had used assumed a stranger. Obviously, a mother's obligation to her child is much different than a stranger's obligation to another stranger.

It has caused me to doubt my previous moral construct for answering the questions.

If you guys could answer, do you think I should throw out this construct? If so, I'd love to her the arguments you make to yourself to answer the two salient questions. 1) Is abortion wrong? 2) Should abortion be illegal? These are truly two separate questions.

Look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your help.


At one time, and still in Canada, the law denies a homeowners right to turn away anyone starving to death, badly injured etc. It has not been used [as a law] to charge anyone, but has come to light over the years in remote cabins. I recall a man broke into a ski chalet in a resort area. He had been homeless and was living off moss so he broke in and lived there a few days until he was caught. He was not charged because of that law, so the analogy is somewhat relevant.

I have much the same struggle. As a Christian, my colleagues have a hard and fast rule: never.

But then my faith is personal, not based on the ideas and thinking of my colleagues. As I read scripture, it tells me that I have no right to tell another how to live, what to believe or right and wrong of another individual.
Not being a woman further removes me from the debate, no one has the right to impose their moral thinking on another.
I am not a woman, and it would never fall to me to raise a child from infancy to adulthood alone.

Today, abortions are more the result of societal break down than careless sexual practices. More and more women are being impregnated and abandoned by their partner; some are in prison. It is a classic "rip-stop' solution, but the best that can come forward with until 'society" wants to deal with the real issues that cause it, from US ghettos to Canada's native community it is an epidemic and we're barely even beginning to talk about it, let alone start taking action.

In the meantime, we need to reverse out views and stop seeing 'women in trouble' as some kind of lower life form and see the woman who needs help in changing her life.

I read about a woman in France who has had 16 abortions. Her we can jail.
 
I am not a woman, and it would never fall to me to raise a child from infancy to adulthood alone.

Why not? You wouldn't want custody of your children or you'd get rid of them if the person you had a child with died?
 
Why not? You wouldn't want custody of your children or you'd get rid of them if the person you had a child with died?

Wow! Just wanted to thank you for keeping my post as your signature. You've been a loyal messenger. People need to know the truth.
 
This isn't a subject you'll get an intelligent, reasonable, or rational response to. I'm sure you've discovered that already, though.

actually I thought it was going extremely well so far :thumbs: especially for the topic

It's very difficult. But someone convinced me in the past. I wish I could find her again. She was very patient and reasoned.

Strange. :confused:

I believe I provided an intelligent, reasonable, and rational response to this OP. :unsure13:

Did you miss it? POST # 49, Page 5:

...In answer to the first question; YES, you need to throw out your construct in order to try to discuss the issue objectively. Otherwise your emotional haze will interfere with a rational analysis.

Instead, being an OB/GYN, you should be looking at this biologically. That childhood begins at birth; while the processes occurring between conception and birth involve phases of development leading to the potential creation of a human being. I use the term "potential" because as an OB/GYN you should be well-aware of the possibility of natural miscarriage at any stage prior to actual birth.

There is no correct answer to your second question. That is because "right and wrong" are moral choices, with few (if any) universal absolutes.

For example, to a Hindu it is morally wrong to kill any living creature, while most other cultures think it's perfectly okay to kill just about anything other than a human being if it suits our needs, while there are some belief systems unconcerned about human life. So when you ask this question, that remains an individual choice based on one's own belief system. :shrug:

The last question is key, should abortion be illegal? IMO, the answer is a resounding NO! This because using the purely biological rationale, the cells are going through several stages of development in the womb before they become a human being entitled to legal protection.

They are human cells; but they are not developed from inception with enough attributes to indicate viable individuality. This does not occur until some later point in the process. So like any other group of human cells in our fully developed bodies, they may be dealt with medically as needed or desired by the human being carrying them.

If I have cancer, you can cut it out even though they are living human cells. If I want to donate a Kidney, or part of my Liver, I can elect to do this even though they are living human cells. Women should have the right to decide what to do with this developing potential right up to the point science can determine potential has turned into actual human consciousness. At that point, this new human being deserves some protection under the law.

Now I did preface it with some explanations leading to my answers.

What was not "intelligent, reasonable, or rational" about the response?
 
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Strange. :confused:

I believe I provided an intelligent, reasonable, and rational response to this OP. :unsure13:

Did you miss it? POST # 49, Page 5:



Now I did preface it with some explanations leading to my answers.

What was not "intelligent, reasonable, or rational" about the response?

your answer was definitely intelligent, reasonable and rational...yes :thumbs:
 
If you guys could answer, do you think I should throw out this construct? If so, I'd love to her the arguments you make to yourself to answer the two salient questions. 1) Is abortion wrong? 2) Should abortion be illegal? These are truly two separate questions.

Look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your help.

For me, I've always looked at it on a meta level. Most people focus on abortion in a very temporal manner, as if that moment in time is never ending. This makes people fall into false comparatives and such. So we can look at the two options and compare:

1. Not getting an abortion: When talking about the bodily autonomy of the mother, we are talking about a partial loss over a period of 9 months. This isn't a very long time.

2. Getting an abortion: This removes the limited restrictions of bodily autonomy of the mother but permanently ends the life of the human growing inside of her.

So you have two disproportional solutions to a problem. I side with the one that has the lowest lasting damage.
 
Strange. :confused:

I believe I provided an intelligent, reasonable, and rational response to this OP. :unsure13:

Did you miss it? POST # 49, Page 5:

I did. I just ran through the first page. There are, however, flaws in your reasoning but it is a rational response. Now that I've seen it I will present a counter.
 
Instead, being an OB/GYN, you should be looking at this biologically. That childhood begins at birth; while the processes occurring between conception and birth involve phases of development leading to the potential creation of a human being. I use the term "potential" because as an OB/GYN you should be well-aware of the possibility of natural miscarriage at any stage prior to actual birth.

Biologically, from fertilization you've begun the human life-cycle. There are numerous stages that humans go through during their life-cycles, assuming that they make it to old age. Therefore, there is no "potential human" but it is the entire actual human at it's beginning stages. All you're doing is pointing out the specific terms and definitions used for various stages of development. A born baby is not fully developed (e.g. they don't have knee caps). Further, the termination of a pregnancy, via natural miscarriage, is not noteworthy in that humans die at different stages of development. If that is cut short, for whatever reason, it does not lessen the humanity of said human. If a baby dies of SIDS, it does not mean it was less of a human. It just means that it's life-cycle was cut short. You've also glossed over the matter of intent. There is a difference between a human dying due to a heart attack and another human shooting them through the heart. One thing is passive while the other is done with the intended purpose of killing.
 
I mentioned rape once as an aside. Your post focused on the woman making a choice to have sex and as such bearing the responsibility of that choice. My post was meant to show that a woman having sex does not automatically mean that she made a choice to become pregnant. Do you agree or disagree with this?

I think I'm going to have to equivocate because I think that any woman who doesn't consider the possibility before having sex that she could become pregnant is crazy. Every single time you have sex you are risking impregnating someone/becoming pregnant.
 
Who said it is? Is there a reason you don't use the quote feature?

You offered the smoker/tumor removal as an analogy.

And I'm sorry that I didn't use the quote feature; I had no idea you would struggle to find my post 33 when it followed your post 32. :roll:
 
Wow! Just wanted to thank you for keeping my post as your signature. You've been a loyal messenger. People need to know the truth.

You're welcome. I could say it is out of principle but it's more of a matter of laziness and apathy.
 
Um, I'm not sure I am who you think I am. I have used this in other locations a lot time ago, but I've posted as inpursuitoftruth in the past. I'm doing well though, thank you.



Sorry, my mistake. I used to know a Beachdoc, I guess it was someone else.
 
I think I'm going to have to equivocate because I think that any woman who doesn't consider the possibility before having sex that she could become pregnant is crazy. Every single time you have sex you are risking impregnating someone/becoming pregnant.

Nota, both women and MEN are at risk. But my question to you is: Should the risk of having sex come with an automatic "predetermined punitive sentence" imposable by special people, organizations (religious, etc), governments, etc., if any given sexual act result in a conception?

"Predetermined Punishment Sentence If Conception Occurs" is defined as: being forced to gestation for 9 months (including paying all related expenses before, during and after gestation) and giving birth, then 18 plus years of supporting a child - and the latter can apply to men as well? Who has been ordained to have such control over individuals and WHY SHOULD THEY have that power over all other people?

I don't really believe that you believe that sex is solely for reproduction. I also believe that you are keenly aware that that sex is engaged in thousands of times more for pleasure and bonding over reproduction. If the preceding is at all true - then you must also know that people are more responsible than not with their sexual behaviors/reproductive consequences. Most pregnancies are, in fact, brought to full term.

Despite you knowing the above...I would "guess" that you believe the opposite of the following:

Having an accidental, unexpected, or unwanted conception shouldn't warrant "a predetermined punitive sentence" as stated above, which is issued by any individual, religious organization (which all exist out of voluntary membership), governments at any level, any legislative body, or any judicial body.
 
1) Actually your analogy refers to a trespasser, i.e. an interloper interfering with one's person or property. A trespasser does not have to be a stranger, it can be anyone known or unknown to you who interferes with your person or property.

2) In a state of nature, the individual will act as they so choose in how to deal with such an interloper. The law (a social construct) merely recognizes and supports this right of individual action by setting parameters to prevent unnecessary harms.



3) Now here we get into semantics, since both terms have various definitions depending on the user's viewpoint.

4) To some, "Mother" refers to the female whose egg was used to conceive, whose body was used to give birth, and who then raised the child so conceived. But that's a bit hazy since we currently have forms of surrogate which mix this process up, not to mention usage in adoption.

5) In biological terms, the word "Child" refers to a human being after birth (when childhood starts) but before puberty (when adulthood starts). Socially the term applies to persons born to, or adopted by one or more adults who identify themselves as parents.

6) I raise this point because when you used that phrase "Mother's obligation to her child" you are clearly trying to imply a social or emotional link which colors the viewpoint; thereby obscuring a clinically objective argument. :shrug:



7) In answer to the first question; YES, you need to throw out your construct in order to try to discuss the issue objectively. Otherwise your emotional haze will interfere with a rational analysis.

8) Instead, being an OB/GYN, you should be looking at this biologically. That childhood begins at birth; while the processes occurring between conception and birth involve phases of development leading to the potential creation of a human being. I use the term "potential" because as an OB/GYN you should be well-aware of the possibility of natural miscarriage at any stage prior to actual birth.

There is no correct answer to your second question. That is because "right and wrong" are moral choices, with few (if any) universal absolutes.

9) For example, to a Hindu it is morally wrong to kill any living creature, while most other cultures think it's perfectly okay to kill just about anything other than a human being if it suits our needs, while there are some belief systems unconcerned about human life. So when you ask this question, that remains an individual choice based on one's own belief system. :shrug:

10) The last question is key, should abortion be illegal? IMO, the answer is a resounding NO! This because using the purely biological rationale, the cells are going through several stages of development in the womb before they become a human being entitled to legal protection.

11) They are human cells; but they are not developed from inception with enough attributes to indicate viable individuality. This does not occur until some later point in the process. So like any other group of human cells in our fully developed bodies, they may be dealt with medically as needed or desired by the human being carrying them.

12) If I have cancer, you can cut it out even though they are living human cells. If I want to donate a Kidney, or part of my Liver, I can elect to do this even though they are living human cells. Women should have the right to decide what to do with this developing potential right up to the point science can determine potential has turned into actual human consciousness. At that point, this new human being deserves some protection under the law.

I put numbers by the paragraph so I can address them individually. I don't know how to multi quote.:confused:

I know you asked about your statement and whether it was a reasoned response. It is, and I greatly appreciate it. Sorry, I was putting it on the back burner so that I could have time to think about it.

1-3: Sure
4-5: Yes, there is that emotional context, that is the point.
6: I think you are missing the point of my statement. The point is not that I am presuposing that this a mother-child relationship, the point is that my former ability to ignore the question of when personhood begins by be unsatisfactory, because if I recognize that the ZEF is a person, then it is not just a person it is a child, unless there is an argument otherwise. As a child to a mother the relationship is different and I have to at least entertain arguments that the mother has an obligation to care for and provide for her child, which is something that's widely recognized outside the womb. Again, I haven't established this position, but it's the question that I have to address. I used the phrase "a mother's obligation to her child" because it is loaded and does have connotation.
 
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