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Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61:303]

Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Says you. But, why differentiate between cancer and a pregnancy? If the government can tell you you can't have cancer treatment, why can't they do the same for abortion?


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Again, you've made no distinction between private and government insurers. Private insurers are probably more likely to deny cancer treatment than government. So where are you getting information that say Medicare will deny cancer treatment?
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

I don't get how you don't see the difference between a private company and a government. Why do you equate the two?


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Speaking for myself the biggest difference is that if a privste company misuses your private information you have a higher authority to appeal too. When the gov missuses your private information.... oh well, sucks to be you

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Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Says you. But, why differentiate between cancer and a pregnancy? If the government can tell you you can't have cancer treatment, why can't they do the same for abortion?


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You actually bring up an interesting point in that a major concern the gov has right now is a declining birthrate. With less and less people in the workforce and people living longer it is a growing threat to the sustainability of many welfare programs like SS and medicare. What if the gov decided to stop allowing abortions because they need those future workers to contribute money.

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Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Again, you've made no distinction between private and government insurers. Private insurers are probably more likely to deny cancer treatment than government. So where are you getting information that say Medicare will deny cancer treatment?
Where are you getting that private insurers are more likely to deny someone cancer treatment?

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Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

IMO either the unborn has the protection of the state or it does not. I personally believe the unborn is not entitled to that protection

I don't think we will ever get one straight answer to that question, and to me that's the entire moral of the story. Anyone who tries to make a universal law about abortion ends up being faced with a series of exceptional cases that renders the original premise imprecise. This is basically the reason why I'm pro-choice, because it's the only premise that can embody unforeseen exceptions.

When people make righteous laws they don't tend to be very effective from a policy standpoint because they are too exclusive.
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Agree.

The only thing to prevents states from abusing women with these types of laws anymore than some have been able to is because they have to adopt the definition of an unborn that is stated in the Unborn Victim's Act. In other words, they can't undermine Roe v Wade with their respective state laws.

Similar to the post I just wrote above, the reason why I like Roe v. Wade is because it doesn't make a judgment about abortion itself, which really is the most inclusive way of forming policy. There are very obvious definitions of homicide that everyone can agree on... like if I kill my neighbor, everyone will agree that I committed homicide. Whether or not it's murder, manslaughter, etc... is up for debate. But I killed a person.

Putting aside political prejudices, it's obvious that fetal "homicide" does not have the same universality. We have one group pushing that a single definition should be made universal when there is no real sociocultural precedent for doing so.

So what concerns me is that future SCOTUS rulings will probably be forced to define fetal homicide itself, rather than sidestep with a privacy ruling. Regardless if their decision is in line with my views or not, it will represent an exclusive opinion being codified into law when it's not appropriate to do so. That means less room for exceptional cases, more women and children being put at risk, implications in family planning, the list goes on.
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Says you. But, why differentiate between cancer and a pregnancy? If the government can tell you you can't have cancer treatment, why can't they do the same for abortion?


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Because private pay is private pay.

If your health provider denies a certain treatment the individual can private pay and still have that treatment.

Look at cosmetic plastic surgery for an example.
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Similar to the post I just wrote above, the reason why I like Roe v. Wade is because it doesn't make a judgment about abortion itself, which really is the most inclusive way of forming policy. There are very obvious definitions of homicide that everyone can agree on... like if I kill my neighbor, everyone will agree that I committed homicide. Whether or not it's murder, manslaughter, etc... is up for debate. But I killed a person.

Putting aside political prejudices, it's obvious that fetal "homicide" does not have the same universality. We have one group pushing that a single definition should be made universal when there is no real sociocultural precedent for doing so.

So what concerns me is that future SCOTUS rulings will probably be forced to define fetal homicide itself, rather than sidestep with a privacy ruling. Regardless if their decision is in line with my views or not, it will represent an exclusive opinion being codified into law when it's not appropriate to do so. That means less room for exceptional cases, more women and children being put at risk, implications in family planning, the list goes on.

I hear ya. And I think you're voicing some legitimate concerns.

As you discussed in a previous posts regarding our legislative and judicial bodies, it certainly appears that over the last few decades that they've been infiltrated with hard-right sectarian members. They aren't shy. They don't try to hide their presence or agendas. I would opine that they subscribe to excessive authoritarian values that, for the most part and don't really represent the national consensus/standards/values/beliefs - nor complies with the ideology and foundation of our system of government. For the more aggressive hard-right members, logic and reason doesn't see to fit with their modus operandi. It's almost like we're seeing a revival of the early day Puritans that made their way from Europe.

And it looks like to me that...

Government (regardless of party majorities) has learned over time to divert the attention of the citizens by using tactics to avoid accountability by dumping unsubstantiated, unrealistic fear on the public regarding issues like "war on religion", "war on guns", "abortion", "sexual orientation", just to name a few. This allows them to conduct their agendas, their business with special interests, which have managed to usurp the interests of the electorate. However, our more authoritarian members, it appears, have a mission that revolves more around social control, not governing, in order to achieve their goals.

Especially since the early 80s we've seen our Supreme Court shift its role to be used as a legislative body rather than judicial. And that has degraded our 3 branch system of government. And our check and balance system as well. It's pretty obvious that each party has been attempting to post Justices who subscribe to their specific political ideologies rather than for their talents to perform their intended roles as unbiased, objective jurors who weigh our legislative and legal behaviors against the Constitution.

I think that it's pretty obvious that the core beliefs behind pro-life's tenets regarding abortion come from their religions (directly and indirectly). When I say "indirectly", I mean that it's a form of generational beliefs that are taught within family systems with handed down religious beliefs, but not necessarily coming directly from any religious institutions.

If pro-life advocates were individually a living example of their beliefs, without believing that they have some duty to their higher power to infringe on the rights of others "because of their beliefs", then we wouldn't see that types of activism to control women's reproductive roles. Or if they could produce some kind of compelling evidence that abortion has had, currently has, or will in the future have significant social impacts on the well-being of humankind, but no such evidence has ever been presented. And it's pretty obvious that since they can't really produce such evidence the most effective way for them to achieve their goals - is by working damn hard to secure positions within government, legislatively and judicially in order to peddle their beliefs.
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Because private pay is private pay.

If your health provider denies a certain treatment the individual can private pay and still have that treatment.

Look at cosmetic plastic surgery for an example.

Exactly, Minnie...

And how many times have you pointed out that abortions aren't paid for by government (with the exception of life threating issues for women on Medicaid)? Most women private pay for their abortions.
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Again, you've made no distinction between private and government insurers. Private insurers are probably more likely to deny cancer treatment than government. So where are you getting information that say Medicare will deny cancer treatment?

I've made the distinction several times. We are just going around in circles.
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

I've made the distinction several times. We are just going around in circles.

You've "attempted" to make distinctions, but they don't work.
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

You've "attempted" to make distinctions, but they don't work.

Lol...and who's fault is that? I've stated my case quite clearly, but communication is a two way street. If you choose not to accept I can't do much about that. Sorry. [emoji849]


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Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

I hear ya. And I think you're voicing some legitimate concerns.

As you discussed in a previous posts regarding our legislative and judicial bodies, it certainly appears that over the last few decades that they've been infiltrated with hard-right sectarian members. They aren't shy. They don't try to hide their presence or agendas. I would opine that they subscribe to excessive authoritarian values that, for the most part and don't really represent the national consensus/standards/values/beliefs - nor complies with the ideology and foundation of our system of government. For the more aggressive hard-right members, logic and reason doesn't see to fit with their modus operandi. It's almost like we're seeing a revival of the early day Puritans that made their way from Europe.

And it looks like to me that...

Government (regardless of party majorities) has learned over time to divert the attention of the citizens by using tactics to avoid accountability by dumping unsubstantiated, unrealistic fear on the public regarding issues like "war on religion", "war on guns", "abortion", "sexual orientation", just to name a few. This allows them to conduct their agendas, their business with special interests, which have managed to usurp the interests of the electorate. However, our more authoritarian members, it appears, have a mission that revolves more around social control, not governing, in order to achieve their goals.

Especially since the early 80s we've seen our Supreme Court shift its role to be used as a legislative body rather than judicial. And that has degraded our 3 branch system of government. And our check and balance system as well. It's pretty obvious that each party has been attempting to post Justices who subscribe to their specific political ideologies rather than for their talents to perform their intended roles as unbiased, objective jurors who weigh our legislative and legal behaviors against the Constitution.

I think that it's pretty obvious that the core beliefs behind pro-life's tenets regarding abortion come from their religions (directly and indirectly). When I say "indirectly", I mean that it's a form of generational beliefs that are taught within family systems with handed down religious beliefs, but not necessarily coming directly from any religious institutions.

If pro-life advocates were individually a living example of their beliefs, without believing that they have some duty to their higher power to infringe on the rights of others "because of their beliefs", then we wouldn't see that types of activism to control women's reproductive roles. Or if they could produce some kind of compelling evidence that abortion has had, currently has, or will in the future have significant social impacts on the well-being of humankind, but no such evidence has ever been presented. And it's pretty obvious that since they can't really produce such evidence the most effective way for them to achieve their goals - is by working damn hard to secure positions within government, legislatively and judicially in order to peddle their beliefs.

Excellent post... and pretty much defines why the hard right (not the right in general, mind you) has retrofitted the SCOTUS to do things it wasn't meant to do. This same sect has setup the hyperpartisan polarization of our country we have seen since 9-11, which is only getting worse.
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Excellent post... and pretty much defines why the hard right (not the right in general, mind you) has retrofitted the SCOTUS to do things it wasn't meant to do. This same sect has setup the hyperpartisan polarization of our country we have seen since 9-11, which is only getting worse.

I can certainly see why the hard-right is seeking a party nominee to post a conservative justice, and potentially a couple more within the next few years to maintain the type of judicial activism that we seen. But we've also been plagued with Congressional gridlock for eons, as well. So it appears that are some components of government are not doing their jobs, while others are taking on the tasks that aren't really delegated.

But we have to remember that "Substantive Due Process", which gives the S.C. more power to engage in judicial activism, is the very same process used to decide on Roe v Wade. It's a double edged sword.
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Lol...and who's fault is that? I've stated my case quite clearly, but communication is a two way street. If you choose not to accept I can't do much about that. Sorry. [emoji849]


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Your case is as clear as mud since as I pointed out the ACA , Tricare , and or medical records has nothing to do with 'right to privacy ' regarding abortion, contraception or child rearing.
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Your case is as clear as mud since as I pointed out the ACA , Tricare , and or medical records has nothing to do with 'right to privacy ' regarding abortion, contraception or child rearing.

Look, I've been ignoring your responses because you've missed the point by such a wide margin it would take too long to bring you back around. Until you can understand that an abortion is a medical procedure with equivalent privacy concerns to any other treatment, there is no point in discussing any further


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Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Look, I've been ignoring your responses because you've missed the point by such a wide margin it would take too long to bring you back around. Until you can understand that an abortion is a medical procedure with equivalent privacy concerns to any other treatment, there is no point in discussing any further


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And elective abortion along with cosmetic surgery medical procedures are privately paid for so there are no privacy concerns.( they cannot be denied since they are not covered )
They do not share the privacy concerns of other medical procedures even if such concerns for other treatments do exist.
 
Re: Cash-Strapped States Spend Millions Trying To Defend Anti-Abortion Laws[W:61]

Says you. But, why differentiate between cancer and a pregnancy? If the government can tell you you can't have cancer treatment, why can't they do the same for abortion?


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The government does not tell you that you cannot have your cancer treated,
 
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