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When public health runs into the politics of reproduction.

[Part 4 of reply to Msg #91]


If the same, the cuticle [cell] would, unless dying naturally/murdered, go on to later stages of human life.
THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE THE SAME, TO HAVE SIMILAR POTENTIAL. For example, consider that at the edge of a cliff might be a smallish boulder having a mass of 100 kilograms, and a largish computer system also having a mass of 100 kilograms. If an earthquake sends both off the cliff, then when they hit the ground both will have acquired equal amounts of kinetic energy --with respect to THAT they had similar potential, sitting on the cliff. SO: both the normal zygote and the cuticle cell have the complete set of human DNA code. They are simply processing different segments of that code. Both cells can divide and make more copies of themselves. If the zygote and its descendents live, then some of those descendants will eventually transform themselves to become cuticle cells. While no cuticle cell Naturally transforms to become a zygote-equivalent cell, the appropriate DNA code still exists in that cell. And cloning researchers have PROVED that the zygote code in an ordinary specialized cell's DNA **can** get processed --else no clones, like Dolly the sheep, would have been successfully created in the labs. So see above about Active External Help. The zygote absolutely cannot succeed at yeilding a whole human body without Active External Help --and abortion opponents routinely insist that that help MUST be provided. Triggering a cuticle cell, so that it starts processing zygote DNA code, perfectly would qualify as Active External Help --even a relatively trivial amount of help, compared to, say, the huge effort a woman puts forth during the labor of a delivery. Unborn humans don't claw their way out of wombs, and get born without Active External Help!


A cuticle [cell] and zygote are simply not synonymous. Facts are facts.
FACTS ARE INDEED FACTS, but the degree of synonymity between a zygote and a cuticle cell is far greater than you erroneously claim. I note that in a couple places I needed to modify what you wrote, to change "cuticle" to "cuticle [cell]", because **I** have consistently been talking about cuticle cells, which individually are significantly different from "cuticles", the things made up of lots and lots of cuticle cells. Rather like a single white blood cell is not equal to whole blood. IF YOU ACTUALLY WERE SPECIFYING CUTICLES INSTEAD OF CUTICLE CELLS, then your ignorance is far worse than I thought --you failed to pay attention to what I actually wrote in The Cuticle Cell Argument!


I'll call a child walking around a child
OKAY


... just like the child in a pregnant woman.
FALSE. The one is most certainly NOT "just like" the other, since the unborn human has an attached placenta as a vital organ, while the walking-about child does not. ONE CONSEQUENCE of that difference is that scientific terminology distinguishes them with different names --the unborn human is typically called a "fetus" or "embryo".


They are synoymous except one is in an earlier stage of development.
THE ZYGOTE IS AN EARLIER STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT OF A CUTICLE CELL (since some of its descendents normally transform to become cuticle cells), yet somehow, to you, that is NOT sufficient grounds to claim the two cells are synonymous. Therefore you are exhibiting the Stupid Hypocrisy of a double standard. Meanwhile, I am not presenting a double standard. The zygote and cuticle cell are different enough to have different names, but similar enough for either to be able to transform into the other. The unborn human and the walking-about child are different enough to have different names, and similar enough for one to transform to the other, but not vice-versa. That actually makes the unborn human and the walking child MORE different than the cuticle cell and the zygote! Yet you, like most abortion opponents, fully accept the different names "zygote" and "cuticle cell", but reject the use of the perfectly valid different name, "fetus" instead of "child", for an unborn human. Stupid Hypocrisy! Tsk, tsk!


What don't you get about that?
I PERFECTLY UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION. As just described above.


Mental block, is it incompetence, callous disregard, willful choice?
BRAGGING ABOUT YOURSELF, AGAIN? HAW! HAW!! HAW!!!
 
[Part 5 of reply to Msg #91]


I've pointed out several, certainly not all, of the flaws.
FALSE! You've exposed your own ignorance and Stupid Prejudice and Stupid Hypocrisy, and little else, at least with respect to The Cuticle Cell Argument. WIth respect to other arguments of mine, YES, I admit the number of species getting killed every year is probably not the "33,000" widely reported, but that flaw does not affect the thrust of any argument of mine that uses it, simply because human overpopulation **IS** directly causing the extinction of many many species every year. A lower number of extinctions does not change the fundamental FACT that human overpopulation is a real thing having real consequences.


You are just too stubborn/obstinate and choose blindness over what could/should be epiphany.
BRAGGING ABOUT YOURESELF, AGAIN! HAW! HAW!! HAW!!!


When one type animal is so far superior to others, then value its established.
STUPID PREJUDICE. Who defines "superior"? Horseshoe crabs have survived relatively unchanged for as much as 445 million years, having lived through all the Earth's most famous Mass Extinction Events; humans have been "anatomically modern" for a mere 200,000 years or so, and might exterminate themselves in a World War. Why should YOUR definition of "superior" be better than the definition a horseshoe crab might provide (if it could), or an orangutan might provide (if it could)?


MORE, THE CONCEPT OF "VALUE" IS ARTIFICIAL. There is no such thing as "intrinsic" value, which if it existed would be Universally recognizeable. Let's see what happens if you, unarmed, encounter a hungry man-eating tiger. Do you think that telling the tiger "I have intrinsic value!" will save your deluded life? HAH! To the tiger, all you have is "fresh meat value", and nothing more than that.


Why would anyone value a sweet new BMW over a tricycle?
THERE IS NO ACCOUNTING FOR TASTE. That's why, if you place a pile of dung next to a same-size perfeclty polished diamond, and let a dung beetle decide which is the more valuable thing, it will (metaphorically) look at the diamond and say to itself, "That ain't worth s***!" ALL VALUATIONS ARE SUBJECTIVE, RELATIVE, AND ARBITRARY. There is no such thing as "intrinsic" value, PERIOD.


Its obvious to most of us.
IT IS OBVIOUS THAT YOU EXHIBIT STUPID PREJUDICE. Just like most abortion opponents.


Sorry, cannot work miracles, you have to try to understand on your own.
I FULLY UNDERSTAND YOU EXHIBIT STUPID PREJUDICE, STUPID HYPOCRISY, AND IGNORANCE. Just like most abortion opponents. Even though none of you actually need to exhibit any such things. Get yourselves better educated, to become cured of that exhibitionism!


Not depriving future generations,
YOU MOST CERTAINLY ARE DEPRIVING FUTURE GENERATIONS OF ALL THE SPECIES BECOMING EXTINCT AS A CONSEQUENCE OF CANCEROUS HUMAN POPULATION GROWTH IN THE GLOBAL ECOSYSTEM.


but you are advocating the murder of current generations.
UTTERLY FALSE! It is impossible to "murder" unborn human ANIMAL entities; the word ONLY applies to killing persons[/q]. And second, consider the following (rough) current numbers: 50 million human deaths a year from all causes, after birth, 30 million abortions per year, and 80 million EXTRA mouths-to-feed every year. Those numbers mean that there are roughly 160 million pregnancies every year that EITHER lead to replacing the folks who died, are aborted, or add extra mouths-to-feed to the total world population. Those numbers also mean that **IF** the abortion rate went up to 110 million every year, there would **still** be 50 million births replacing the normal 50 million deaths --there would still be a full-fledged "current generation" (and a stable global human population). And therefore what you wrote is, indeed, Utterly False; all the world's abortions are not harming any current generation!
 
[Part 6, last of reply to Msg #91]


Yes, individuals are important just as species can be important.
ONLY SURVIVING INDIVIDUALS ARE IMPORTANT TO NATURE. And even then, only a subset of the survivors are important, because not all the survivors have offspring tht themselves survive. Two oysters can have 100 million offspring in ONE breeding season; on the average, only two or three of those offspring will survive to themselves eventually have offspring. Nature doesn't care in the least WHICH two or three, of the 100 million, are the survivors; pure luck is likely the biggest survival factor there. So long as enough individuals survive, that the species can survive, Nature is fine with all the deaths of all the other individuals. In this day-and-age humans are not having any such problem, regarding a sufficiency of survivors, but plenty other species are having that problem.


We should be striving to most, not murder the one so that the other might live.
BADLY PHRASED. I shall assume you are talking about striving to keep most individuals alive --but you ignoring the fact that there is a 10:1 biomass connection, with respect to ANY animal species and its food supplies (other species). For 100 kilograms of human flesh to survive, 1000kg of other living biomass must die. Which clearly means that to save the greatest quantity of all types of individuals, we need fewer humans in the world, not more!


And once again you mis-use the word "murder", since it does not apply to the killing of mere-animal entities such as unborn humans.


If we could destroy all mosquitoes, down here the chitras, I would advocate mightily for that.
STUPID PREJUDICE, AGAIN! Read the facts! Not all mosquito species target humans. The ones that do are the only ones we should consider eliminating. Because the other species could then increase in numbers (less competition for, say, stagnant water), and keep a big chunk of the ecological food chain from collapsing.


I think we'll survive.
WE MIGHT. That doesn't mean we will enjoy being the only macroscopic life-forms on Earth, after we eat all the others to make ever-more numan bodies. You DO know that the total biomass on Planet Earth is limited, don't you? In the long long run, the more humans, the less there can be of almost any other macroscopic species. You'll get your wish regarding mosquitoes, plus other pests like mites, bedbugs, mice, rats, and lice will also be converted into human-edible biomass, just so more human bodies could begin to exist --and eventually there won't exist even ordinary pets like cats and dogs. The only living things on Earth will be humans, their accompanying symbiotoc bacteria, plus a couple other microscopic species like green algae, dedicated to things like using sunlight to convert human exhalations of carbon dioxide back into oxygen for humans to breathe, and processing human waste into edible gruel. Is that what you really want? An Earth even more barren than was Easter Island when discovered by the Europeans?
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If not you will get your destruction of mankind you desire.
FALSE ACCUSATION. It is abortion opponents who are, through Ignorance, Delusion, Stupid Prejudice and Stupid Hypocrisy, pushing mankind toward the destruction of a Malthusian Catastrophe. Pro-choicers like myself want to prevent that!


The world will be left with only nature destroying/recreating... which is what is actually happening now, ha ha ha...
HUMANS ARE PART OF NATURE. And Nature has checks and balances. Malthusian Catastrophes are ONE type of check/balance.


you are just to blind to see.
BRAGGING ABOUT YOURESELF, AGAIN! HAW! HAW!! HAW!!!
 
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