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Rights v Rights

I hate posting in this forum because there is so much vitriol on this subject. But I wanted to break down the topic to the core issue. The rights of the pregnant as compared to the rights of the conceived.

We have a commonly accepted principle in our society that can be summed up colloquially as; your rights end where my rights begin. That principle is well and good when our rights don't intermingle, but when the rights of multiple individuals cross paths and cannot be separated without detriment, it is difficult or impossible to determine who's rights take precedence. In the case of abortion, we have two sets of rights, a woman's right to privacy and an unborn human's right to live. Both are valid. A woman absolutely has the right to keep her medical information between her and her providers (doctors, insurance, etc). However, natural law dictates that all people have certain unalienable rights like life, liberty, and property.

In my opinion, rights should be handled by a hierarchy of rights, then by causation, then by detriment.

The hierarchy would be as follows (from the UN declaration of rights with some modifications.



If an individual causes another individual's rights to become integrated with their own, the rights of the other individual shall take precedence.

If neither the parties involved are equal in the hierarchy of rights and neither caused their rights to become entangled, then the rights of the person that are affected to greatest degree of detriment should take precedence.

Obviously, this isn't a perfect plan. This is the first iteration of my thoughts on this. Discuss.

The UN human views abortion as a legal and human right
Banning aboriton is a violation of the right to life of the woman

the reason why abortion is not like any other issue is very simple. its two lives, not one but TWO but one life resides INSIDE the other, is dependent on it and its very existence is a threat. some times a very very small threat, sometimes a large threat but none the less a threat.

Abortion cant be compared to any other circumstance of right vs right because it is unique.

Equal rights on abortion is factually impossible so a solution in the middle must be picked. We must try to be in the middle the best we can. One life will always "right wise" get the short end of the stick. anything that fully or mostly supports banning or unlimited abortions leans to far in one direction and is not even close trying to achieve equal. RvW is actually a pretty good pick, might not be optimal of course but it certainly isnt extreme, it is in the middle area.
 
They DO have them...we just choose not to recognize them. (Unless you are a member of Greenpeace or PETA).

All animals communicate. All animals struggle to survive. Animals do all sorts of things that we refuse to recognize because they aren't "sentient" and "Human."


"

No...no one has them unless people recognize them. Period.

Let's see you prove that rights are inherent in humans. Where is the proof like for other inherent characteristics?

And the last time I checked, we do recognize animals do all those things and they can be proven. :doh


(LOL I could murder someone too but that doesnt mean I have a 'right' to do so. Good lord!!!)
 
Rights have to do with our behavior toward one another.

There is only one paramount, foundational right: the right to life. This is a state of being right. This right is unalienable, inviolable and absolute, so that only God, who gives this right, can rightly violate this right of another human being.

From the paramount foundational right to life, there emanates the singular secondary right as a result: the right to physical and psychological security of person. This is an existential right. This right is inviolable except when one is in the act of violating this or the foundational right of another.

From the paramount foundational right to life with respect to the singular secondary right of security of person, there emanates the singular tertiary right as a result: the right to freedom of action. This is an activity right. This right is situationally relative and may be abridged, limited or revoked for justified circumstances either personally or collectively.

These are the only three classes of rights that exist. There are no more classes of rights than these.

Behaviors may be reasonably and customarily classified as belonging to one of these three classes of rights, thus making the behavior a "right".

For example, the right of the behavior of self-defense is reasonably and customarily classified under the right of security of person, and that makes the behavior of self-defense a right.

If a person unjustifiably attacks you, threatening your life, you have the right of self-defense to deflect the attack. If the attack is truly life threatening and the attacker is killed in the process, the defender is not liable for violating the attacker's right to life because the attacker was both 1) in the process of violating the defender's foundational right and 2) the defender was executing his secondary level right.

When rights conflict then appeal is thus made to the level of rights involved. In the preceding example, the attacker had no right to make the life-threatening attack and the defender had every right to defend the threat against his life with equal force if necessary. Thus the decision goes to the defender, and the attacker's right of security of person is suspended during the attack and the attacker's appeal to the tertiary right of "freedom of action" is trumped by the defender's appeal to the overriding secondary right of security of person.

Behaviors classified as activity rights present a challenge for resolution when rights are in conflict.

The general rule of resolution is that the foundational right overrides the secondary right which overrides the tertiary right.

For example, a person wants to own a nuclear bomb. The person claims that owning a nuclear bomb is his freedom of action right. However, that freedom of action is not reasonable and customary, so such is not a right. So whether or not the person will be privileged to own a nuke will depend on the government.

However, in another example, a person wishes to own a gun for protection. The person claims that owning a gun is his freedom of action right. Such a behavior is also reasonable and customary, so indeed, owning a gun is a right.

However, freedom of action rights are, by nature, situationally relative, and may be abridged, limited or revoked for justified circumstances, either personally or collectively.

So although gun ownership is a right, the right may be revoked, for example, if the person is justifiably considered a threat to the right of security of person of another individual or people in general. Justifiably deprived of his right to own a gun, that person must find another way to insure his security of person.

Resolution between two conflicting freedom of action rights becomes more complicated.

For example, it is reasonable and customary to allow the right of property owners to build on their land and it is reasonable and customary to allow people the right to drive their cars on the roads.

But if the roads are congested beyond acceptable function, governments may deny property owner "developers" the right to build homes and business buildings on their property and sell them, as such would create additional cars on the road and contribute to the revoking of the right to drive one's car freely without constriction on the road.

Ultimately, however, rights in conflict involving freedom of action rights are resolved by appealing backwards to the secondary and foundational rights which always trump freedom of action rights.

So, for example, though we have freedom of action, if a crime is committed, the criminal may have his freedom of action rights abridged via a stay in the pokey. However, during his stay in prison it is a violation of his right of security of person to be subjected to "beatings" of various natures at Bubba's whim.

All situational abrogation of rights follows this hierarchical appeal to the three classifications of rights.
 
I hate posting in this forum because there is so much vitriol on this subject. But I wanted to break down the topic to the core issue. The rights of the pregnant as compared to the rights of the conceived.

We have a commonly accepted principle in our society that can be summed up colloquially as; your rights end where my rights begin. That principle is well and good when our rights don't intermingle, but when the rights of multiple individuals cross paths and cannot be separated without detriment, it is difficult or impossible to determine who's rights take precedence. In the case of abortion, we have two sets of rights, a woman's right to privacy and an unborn human's right to live. Both are valid. A woman absolutely has the right to keep her medical information between her and her providers (doctors, insurance, etc). However, natural law dictates that all people have certain unalienable rights like life, liberty, and property.

In my opinion, rights should be handled by a hierarchy of rights, then by causation, then by detriment.

The hierarchy would be as follows (from the UN declaration of rights with some modifications.



If an individual causes another individual's rights to become integrated with their own, the rights of the other individual shall take precedence.

If neither the parties involved are equal in the hierarchy of rights and neither caused their rights to become entangled, then the rights of the person that are affected to greatest degree of detriment should take precedence.

Obviously, this isn't a perfect plan. This is the first iteration of my thoughts on this. Discuss.

Doesn't matter what the UN declares. Our Constitution takes precedence. And our Constitution does not recognize the unborn as having any Rights. But it does recognize those born as having Rights. As such, the woman's Rights always take precedence over the perceived rights of the unborn. The ONLY way that the anti-abortion crowd is going to win this argument is amending our Constitution to recognize the unborn as having Rights that supersede the Rights of the mother.
 
I see, hmmm...

So if I decide to just beat you up you should just stand there and take it. You have no right to defend yourself so why should you make any attempt to?

Rights are bull****. The whole concept of rights is just a bull**** way of saying you have the ability to use force. You have a "right to life" because the government (whoever has the most force at their disposal at a given time) has promised to use force on anyone who kills you. If faced by a pride of lions, you have no more right to life than an antelope.
 
Fetuses do not have rights, never had them nor is there any basis for fetuses to have rights. That is just reality, fetuses do not count or are significant beyond what the pregnant woman wants it to be.

Just curious. Is that opinion or fact? Where is the logic, common sense, and compassion in that statement that shows us why so many have to die do no good reason I can come with. Because everything I have heard from the left is nowhere good enough to justify what we know to be wrong (including all the opinions that all common sense is subjective - and for a certain someone here "no I am not saying any body said anything")
 
WRONG! Inherent rights are dependent on no one.

No one gives me the right to self-defense. I exercise it independently and to the best of my ability.

No one gives me the right to express myself as freely as I wish. That is exercised at my discretion via my innate ability to communicate. The list goes on.

What organized societies, or individual aggressors can do is try to limit my rights, or try to prevent me from exercising them.

I am still free to agree or disagree as I choose.

So let me see if I understand your position. You believe that rights exist outside of government. But you believe that those rights are not applicable to a fetus because... the government said so? Somehow, you have a 'right to life' due to some inherent quality that you possess, but an unborn human does not have that right because 5 supreme court justices defined personhood as starting at birth? That's a basic contradiction, no?

Let me put it to you this way. If you are on a desert island with one other person, and that person kills you, what happens? Nothing? What about your right to life? You see, rights mean nothing. They are protections extended to you from a body of power. That's all. Your right to remain silent? Just means you are PROTECTED from being forced to speak. Of course you have the inherent ABILITY to stay silent, but the RIGHT to remain silent is extended to you by the government. Right to privacy? There are no magical barriers that prevent someone from invading your right to privacy. The RIGHT to privacy simply means that people are not allowed to do certain things. Then again, that right does not apply if you are suspected of terrorist activity. Somehow, the right disappears if the government has a 'compelling interest.'
 
I still would like to know how you give a fetus full rights (as a born human) without potentially infringing on the rights of the pregnant woman.


I have heard pro-life folks say that the risk to the body had to be imminent loss of life prior to consideration of abortion.

I was pre-eclamptic. I had a few other problems relating to that condition. Because I chose continue my pregnancy, I had a few lingering problems that caused issues after I delivered. But it was my choice to continue the pregnancy and accept the risk.

If I had a similar toxic type condition and I was a man, if something could be taken away to remove the further threat to my body, there would be NO QUESTION. So essentially if pro-lifers had their way, a man and a fetus would clearly have more rights than a woman.

In my case, my pregnancy was "expected" to be a breeze. But because of the pregnancy related health issues I was off work almost 6 months.
Again, a man would have the right to choose full treatment and to avoid future complications and excessive time off work. In pro-life land, a woman would have to be on deaths door before those decisions were allowed to be made.

Again I ask...how do you give full rights to the fetus without the woman giving up rights?
 
I still would like to know how you give a fetus full rights (as a born human) without potentially infringing on the rights of the pregnant woman.

You can't its factually impossible. This is the whole issue, equal rights is factually impossible on the abortion issue, there's two lives and one will always be losing out right wise.
 
First of all, how do you give a fetus the same rights as a born person without taking away rights of the woman who does not wish to remain pregnant??

How do you give the pregnant woman the right to privacy without taking away the unborn human's right to live? That's the point of the post. If both have rights, and I don't see why they wouldn't, how else can we determine who's rights take precedence?
 
What a pantload of nonsense.

Fess up, what you're saying is that the yet to be born should have full Constitutional rights as born persons - and since the born caused them to come into existence their (the yet to be born) rights become superior over those who are born...because they are helpless, innocent, and can't fend for themselves so government becomes their voice. Holy bull****! :shock:

I wasn't hiding the conclusion. It seemed quite logical.
 
Forgive me but that response has no relevance to the point I made.

Look again. The first clause is "If the argument is (personhood begins) at conception..."

What is the logical (scientific/rational?) argument showing that it does? How does one argue that a developing group of cells at conception is the equivalent of a fully developed human being?

We also know the illogical (emotional/spiritual?) argument: That deity infuses the fetus with the human spirit at conception.

But if that is really true? Then that deity is either the greatest mass-murderer in all of human history, or extraordinarily wasteful of human souls...if it allows 75% of "humans" to die of "natural" miscarriages before ever being born into the world. How then hold humans to task when they elect artificial miscarriages?

Hyperbole much?

From the DOI: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." There is a big difference between born and created. Created implies conception. The right to life is a universally accepted right and our founders and firmly ensconced in our laws.

As for a group of cells, they are human. They are human in a very early stage of development, but they are human. All men (sic human, people, persons) are created equal.
 
Hyperbole much?

From the DOI: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." There is a big difference between born and created. Created implies conception. The right to life is a universally accepted right and our founders and firmly ensconced in our laws.

As for a group of cells, they are human. They are human in a very early stage of development, but they are human. All men (sic human, people, persons) are created equal.

Regarding the famous phrase in the DOI...

Jefferson wasn't Jesus or god...nor was he a man who claimed that phrase to be divinely inspired.

It didn't mean what most people who believe as you do thinks that it means. The DOI was a divorce petition, which was sent to King George who believed that he was given divine right to control the lives of everybody else. And that whatever he proclaimed couldn't be questioned because it came from god. He damn well believed that his power as King extended to those in America.

So the famous phrase was Jefferson telling King George that he was full of ****...that he was no more given special rights than any other person.
 
What's the part that doesn't mean what I think it means? You told me nothing new.
 
I predict the following response imminently: "Unborn are not persons so they have no rights" Might have a modifier stating how the Supreme Court determined viability to be blah blah blah.

I think you are spot on, though.

You mean that there are people respond with what the true facts of this discussion? Yes, you are probably right and that is totally normal (with people speaking up for the truth).
 
Just curious. Is that opinion or fact?
Its reality, you should try it some time.

Where is the logic, common sense, and compassion in that statement that shows us why so many have to die do no good reason I can come with.
You mean the absence of your ignorant religious drivel.

Because everything I have heard from the left
I really don't give a crap what you listen to or from where. You have amply demonstrated a disdain for the truth, facts and reality. When you will muster enough intellectual integrity to make arguments outside your religious dogma let me know.
 
They DO have them...we just choose not to recognize them.
That is like saying that everyone is a millionaire, but the baks will not give them the money.

We know that in a state of nature we exercise rights to preserve and enjoy our existence.
And increase our power over others.

We label these "Natural" rights
No, you and few others do that without basis or merit.
 
Rights have to do with our behavior toward one another.

There is only one paramount, foundational right: the right to life. This is a state of being right. This right is unalienable, inviolable and absolute, so that only God, who gives this right, can rightly violate this right of another human being.
Isn't it funny how God forgot to tell us about these gifts in scripture? Isn't it odd the God did not forget to mention slaves and nothing against slavery in scripture?
 
Isn't it funny how God forgot to tell us about these gifts in scripture? Isn't it odd the God did not forget to mention slaves and nothing against slavery in scripture?
In fact, I can find a few Bible verses that are in support of slavery.

Leviticus 25:44-46

"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever."
 
I still would like to know how you give a fetus full rights (as a born human) without potentially infringing on the rights of the pregnant woman.


I have heard pro-life folks say that the risk to the body had to be imminent loss of life prior to consideration of abortion.

I was pre-eclamptic. I had a few other problems relating to that condition. Because I chose continue my pregnancy, I had a few lingering problems that caused issues after I delivered. But it was my choice to continue the pregnancy and accept the risk.

If I had a similar toxic type condition and I was a man, if something could be taken away to remove the further threat to my body, there would be NO QUESTION. So essentially if pro-lifers had their way, a man and a fetus would clearly have more rights than a woman.

In my case, my pregnancy was "expected" to be a breeze. But because of the pregnancy related health issues I was off work almost 6 months.
Again, a man would have the right to choose full treatment and to avoid future complications and excessive time off work. In pro-life land, a woman would have to be on deaths door before those decisions were allowed to be made.

Again I ask...how do you give full rights to the fetus without the woman giving up rights?

You make a lot of assumptions. I am a man, and I value fetal life. I disagree that this has anything to do with the gender of the mother, and claiming that it does is your own bias, not mine. You assume that I have an unreasonable assessment of maternal risk without knowing anything about my opinion or my qualifications for making such a determination.

As far as giving rights to the fetus without the woman giving up rights...
Pro-choice people approach the question in this fashion: Abortion is a right that women possess, so outlawing abortion takes away that right. So granting the fetus the right to life would remove the woman's rights.
Pro-life people approach the question in this fashion: The fetus SHOULD have a right to life, so allowing abortion takes away that right. A maternal right to privacy pales in comparison to any other individual's right to life, and so the fetus SHOULD take priority.
It's a fundamentally polar issue, and I have come to the conclusion that neither side can empathize with the other's approach. My viewpoint is that taking away rights is not the worst thing ever. For instance...
Black slaves are property owned by plantation owners. The plantation owner has rights to protect his property. How do you give the slave human rights without depriving the plantation owner of HIS rights? Oh, you don't care about HIS rights, because you feel those rights are inappropriate given your new-found belief that blacks are people? And thus the loss of rights by one is offset by the gain of rights by another. Same thing here. Instead of worrying so much about women's rights, consider the moral implications of killing the fetus IF that fetus is considered a person.

Out of curiosity... I assume your child lived. I'm very sorry that you had a difficult pregnancy, truly. Forget all the ifs and buts for a moment, and look at your child. Knowing now what you didn't know then, would you NOW choose differently for THAT pregnancy? Would you now choose to have not experienced your health issues at the expense of your child's life?
 
What's the part that doesn't mean what I think it means? You told me nothing new.

The DOI is not incorporated in the Constitution.

In fact the idea of natural rights that Thomas Jefferson based the DOI most likely came from John Locke.

John Locke said " all men are born equally free" and hold certain " natural rights"...


The Open Door Web Site : History : John Locke and the "Treatises on Government

The key word is born.


Some of the founding fathers owned slaves so it is understandable that Jefferson changed the wording from born equally free to "created equal " ... He couldn't very well have the slaves thinking they were born free now could he?
 
The DOI is not incorporated in the Constitution.

In fact the idea of natural rights that Thomas Jefferson based the DOI most likely came from John Locke.


The Open Door Web Site : History : John Locke and the "Treatises on Government

The key word is born.


Some of the founding fathers owned slaves so it is understandable that Jefferson changed the wording from born equally free to "created equal " ... He couldn't very well have the slaves thinking they were born free now could he?

Superb last paragraph! :applaud
 
Hyperbole much?

From the DOI: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." There is a big difference between born and created. Created implies conception. The right to life is a universally accepted right and our founders and firmly ensconced in our laws.

As for a group of cells, they are human. They are human in a very early stage of development, but they are human. All men (sic human, people, persons) are created equal.

If you think my post was hyperbole, then you have an odd sense of the term.

You provide no logical argument, so point one was not addressed by your reply.

You go for point two (of course) with the infusion of spirit theory at conception.

However, you conflate terms. Yes, a group of cells developing in the womb are human cells... as are any group of human skin cells, human liver cells, and human brain cells. Yet none of them are human beings.

Human Beings are created equal, Men and Women. Human cells are just that...cells.
 
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