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Life and Regret[W:31]

Re: Life and Regret

minnie616 said:
According to 44 studies conducted worldwide from 1990 to 2011 that included several million women...women with unwanted pregnancies who had abortions did not suffer more than those who gave birth.Abortion Not A Mental Health Risk But Unwanted Pregnancies Are, Studies Find--------
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And yet, the left seem to be in denial. As many of you know I don't go to the Internet find links, videos and what-not. and post them because, using links, pictures and videos, no one has ever been successful at winning this debate (except for yours truly��), so pulling out and brandishing 44 documents showing suspect data from slanted

sources, while appreciated, doesn't prove squat. I think what we should do in this case is dispense with whatever proof we think we have , which can always be proven wrong, and use my favorite tool - my mind, and my two favorite techniques : I use common sense, and logic to prove our case.And let the right side win.
 
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Re: Life and Regret

RamFel said:
common sense, and logic
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The line above suggests:

#1) men should not make ALL the rules and laws over what women can and can't do with their bodies when it comes to things that men will never have to deal with themselves

#2) choice suggests that those who believe abortion is wrong, are not forced to have abortions - so they win with choice

#3) this isn't a god/biblical issue for those who do not believe in "your" god, so don't force "your" god on others

#4) improve education, sex education, birth control, and the economy overall - and you'll continue to see abortion numbers fall

#5) make birth control more affordable, allow health insurance to cover 100% of it, and make it more easily accessible to all - all you'll continue to see abortion numbers fall

#6) stop pretending you have some right to tell somebody else what's best for them when it comes to medical and/or life decisions

#7) stop shaming women simply for doing what men have always done - engage in sex

That's common sense and logic.
 
Re: Life and Regret

Dragonfly said:
The line above suggests:

#1) men should not make ALL the rules and laws over what women can and can't do with their bodies when it comes to things that men will never have to deal with themselves

#2) choice suggests that those who believe abortion is wrong, are not forced to have abortions - so they win with choice

#3) this isn't a god/biblical issue for those who do not believe in "your" god, so don't force "your" god on others

#4) improve education, sex education, birth control, and the economy overall - and you'll continue to see abortion numbers fall

#5) make birth control more affordable, allow health insurance to cover 100% of it, and make it more easily accessible to all - all you'll continue to see abortion numbers fall

#6) stop pretending you have some right to tell somebody else what's best for them when it comes to medical and/or life decisions

#7) stop shaming women simply for doing what men have always done - engage in sex

That's common sense and logic.
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:applaud

And if you don't mind, I'd like to add the following:

#8) No individual other than a woman who has conceived can determine what "unwanted" means.

#9) Stop using children themselves as the punishment for women having "irresponsible sex" (as claimed and defined by anti-choice).

#10) Believing that ending a host of social programs that prop up irresponsible women who have children in order to use the system for personal gain - significantly impacts the welfare of children. Thus diminishing or ending any program that provides fundamental needs to children is punishing children for their own existence. Suck it up and try learning math.

Remember that prenatal cost, cost of giving birth, postnatal cost and the raising of a child to legal adult age now cost about 300K plus. When "unwanted" kids are born to women who can't provide - TAXPAYERS become liable. Now go back and read #10 again.
 
Re: Life and Regret

From the Report
APA Task Force on
Mental Health and Abortion

On page 89 in The Summery and Conclusion section

One study, however, stood out from the rest in terms of its methodological rigor. This study was conducted in the United Kingdom by the Royal College of General Practitioners and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (Gilchrist et al., 1995). It was longitudinal, based on a representative sample, meas- ured postpregnancy/abortion psychiatric morbidity using established diagnostic categories, controlled
for mental health prior to the pregnancy as well as other relevant covariates, and compared women who terminated an unplanned pregnancy to women who pursued alternative courses of action. In prospective analyses, Gilchrist et al. compared postpregnancy psy- chiatric morbidity (stratified by prepregnancy psychiatric status) of four groups of women, all of whom were faced with an unplanned pregnancy: women who obtained abortions, who did not seek abortion, who requested abortion but were denied, and who initially requested abortion but changed their mind.


The researchers concluded that once psychiatric disorders prior to the pregnancy were taken into account, the rate of total reported psychiatric disorder was no higher after termination of an unplanned pregnancy than after childbirth.

This study provides high-quality evidence that among women faced with an unplanned pregnancy, the relative risks of psychiatric disorder among women who terminate the pregnancy are no greater than the risks among women who pursue alternative courses of action.
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http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/abortion/mental-health.pdf
 
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Re: Life and Regret

"In a previous blog post, I wrote about how having a baby changed my mind about abortion. The hardship of four years of unplanned parenthood made me change my former staunch pro-life position.

But in this post, I want to be even more explicit. It’s not just that I now support women’s right to choose as some sort of abstract ideology. I actually often regret having a child myself. Especially lately."

Why I Sometimes Wish I'd Had an Abortion - Return to Now
 
Re: Life and Regret

Moderator's Warning:
The topic is not each other. Please stop the personal comments towards and at each other.
 
Re: Life and Regret

justabubba said:
here is the portion of that essay i want to comment about:

my wife and i were confronted with an unplanned pregnancy. we aborted and here is why we are certain we made the correct choice

the tests on that embryo determined that if it survived birth, the child would live a terrible existence because of its medical conditions
my wife and i would not have had another child, being devoted to the care of a medically dependent child

soon after the abortion, my wife again became pregnant. and four years later pregnant again
both are wonderful adults. my 31 year old son is planning to retire in a few years. he is trying to figure out how he can serve society in his second career, no longer needing financial compensation. if you own a smart phone, you likely have on it software that he coded
my younger daughter sells medical equipment, having begun her career managing a medical practice
these are healthy, contributing adults, who are a benefit to society
neither of whom would be on this planet had my wife and i decided against an abortion
which is why i must call bull**** on your OP's premise
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We are a nation of morals and principles. We should promote life.

If I knew someone that was 99-years old suffering from Parkinson's disease and wanted me to assist him in suicide, I would flatly refuse. A "terrible existence" is all subjective. I actually find that terribly insulting. Do all children born with handicaps, birth defects or medical conditions living a terrible existence? I am guessing if you asked them personally, they would be happy to be alive.

You do not know that child would have lived a terrible existence. Impossible for you to have known that; only God knows.

As for your brilliant son, maybe you should have him help assist the government in unlocking the terrorists IPhone is San Bernardino? Since Apple refuses, the government could use the help!
 
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Re: Life and Regret

Bucky said:
We are a nation of morals and principles. We should promote life.
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which is why i shared our story with you
two lives now exist only because one does not

If I knew someone that was 99-years old suffering from Parkinson's disease and wanted me to assist him in suicide, I would flatly refuse.
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yes. we disagree. for me, it is quality of life, NOT quantity. i saw my Mom wither away after suffering 20+ years from Alzheimer's. did not shed a tear. her life - the one worth living - had departed two decades earlier. i was grateful that her miserable existence on this orb had ended

A "terrible existence" is all subjective. I actually find that terribly insulting. Do all children born with handicaps, birth defects or medical conditions living a terrible existence? I am guessing if you asked them personally, they would be happy to be alive.
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well, the one we aborted would not have been able to offer you a reply. my wife and i agreed that we would not want to suffer such a living experience. and chose to proceed to abort in the belief that child would not, either

You do not know that child would have lived a terrible existence. Impossible for you to have known that; only God knows.
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fortunately, our doctor is a rare one who does not believe himself to be G_d. but he is brilliant. and trained to know what kind of medical conditions the embryo was facing. we went with his expertise when evaluating the facts and circumstances

As for your brilliant son, maybe you should have him help assist the government in unlocking the terrorists IPhone is San Bernardino? Since Apple refuses, the government could use the help!
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yes, they would benefit
but they already have. they paid for his advanced degrees in computer engineering and computer security. and he repaid them with his service to a 3-letter organization. that is where he saw that he was overseeing the work of contractors making 5X his federal salary. don't think he would have stuck around anyway because of the stupidity of politically appointed idiots. the ones who believe apple is obligated to assist them to expose the confidentiality of millions without warrant
 
Re: Life and Regret

minnie616 said:
In the Turn-away study ( a five study ) most of the women in the study secured the abortion they sought (and 97 percent did not regret it.

More info on Turn Away Study:

Turnaway Study | ANSIRH
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Thanks, Minnie.

The point they repeatedly miss is that unexpected pregnancy is the biggest stressor. Maintaining or terminating the pregnancy each come with a unique subset of stressors and potential regrets.

I know to women who had unplanned pregnancy and adopted out their babies (one was young -about 40 years ago, the other unmarried and culturally would have suffered great consequences for single-motherhood) Both have emotionally suffered for years (decades) over the decision.

Having an unplanned pregnancy without resources can thrust a woman deeper into poverty, potentially sealing the deal into poverty for the next generation.

Having an abortion is not a sure ticket for everyone. Every woman has to examine her own belief system and her own financial and social resources and figure out the best answer for herself.

I would hope no matter what she will consider a better form of contraception. It is pathetic that the most reliable contraception can end up costing about the same as an abortion.
 
Re: Life and Regret

Bucky said:
We are a nation of morals and principles. We should promote life.

If I knew someone that was 99-years old suffering from Parkinson's disease and wanted me to assist him in suicide, I would flatly refuse. A "terrible existence" is all subjective. I actually find that terribly insulting. Do all children born with handicaps, birth defects or medical conditions living a terrible existence? I am guessing if you asked them personally, they would be happy to be alive.

You do not know that child would have lived a terrible existence. Impossible for you to have known that; only God knows.

As for your brilliant son, maybe you should have him help assist the government in unlocking the terrorists IPhone is San Bernardino? Since Apple refuses, the government could use the help!
Click to expand...


"A terrible existence is all subjective."<------What the hell does this mean, BUCKY? :shock: A terrible existence is "subjective to whom"?

CAN YOU objectively claim that the state of everybody else's existence is solely based on their own subjective REALITY of their own existence - (and now to add insult to injury) which need to be viewed and/or judged using YOUR subjective beliefs about their state of existence?

The following is some information regarding "Objective beliefs and Subjective Beliefs" and "Objective Claims and Subjective Claims"...and it might do you some good to copy and paste them so that you can ask yourself some fundamental questions about what claims that you post before you post:

Subjective vs Objective Beliefs

Objective v Subjective.JPG

Objective vs Subjective Claims

1) An objective claim is a statement about a factual matter-one that can be proved true or false. For factual matters there exist widely recognized criteria and methods to determine whether a claim is true or false.

2) A subjective claim, on the other hand, is not a factual matter; it is an expression of belief, opinion, or personal preference.

3) A subjective claim cannot be proved right or wrong by any generally accepted criteria.

You want to try and explain how you get to be the judge for every individual on the planet as to whether or not existence is terrible...subjectively speaking, of course?
 
Re: Life and Regret

Dragonfly said:
The line above suggests:

#1) men should not make ALL the rules and laws over what women can and can't do with their bodies when it comes to things that men will never have to deal with themselves
Hhh
#2) choice suggests that those who believe abortion is wrong, are not forced to have abortions - so they win with choice

#3) this isn't a god/biblical issue for those who do not believe in "your" god, so don't force "your" god on others

#4) improve education, sex education, birth control, and the economy overall - and you'll continue to see abortion numbers fall

#5) make birth control more affordable, allow health insurance to cover 100% of it, and make it more easily accessible to all - all you'll continue to see abortion numbers fall

#6) stop pretending you have some right to tell somebody else what's best for them when it comes to medical and/or life decisions

#7) stop shaming women simply for doing what men have always done - engage in sex

That's common sense and logic.
Click to expand...

Those points are only your opinions.
 
Re: Life and Regret

lb_on_teh_cb said:
eh, makes it sound like he and his wife had nothing to do with the situation
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So if you are walking down the road and a goat gets in your way and wants to head butt you and I say, "hey, I was confronted with a zany goat while walking" would you say that I sounded like I had nothing to do with the situation? Did I have anything to do with that problem? Not really...
 
Re: Life and Regret

Bucky said:
We are a nation of morals and principles. We should promote life.

If I knew someone that was 99-years old suffering from Parkinson's disease and wanted me to assist him in suicide, I would flatly refuse. A "terrible existence" is all subjective. I actually find that terribly insulting. Do all children born with handicaps, birth defects or medical conditions living a terrible existence? I am guessing if you asked them personally, they would be happy to be alive.

You do not know that child would have lived a terrible existence. Impossible for you to have known that; only God knows.

As for your brilliant son, maybe you should have him help assist the government in unlocking the terrorists IPhone is San Bernardino? Since Apple refuses, the government could use the help!
Click to expand...

...and they would be happier if they did not have whatever ailment they have. Go to a schools special needs unit and see what a happy fulfulling life those kids are living and get back to me.
 
Re: Life and Regret

lb_on_teh_cb said:
eh, makes it sound like he and his wife had nothing to do with the situation
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To me, it sounded like they experienced something "unexpected" (they might well have used birth control and it failed).

And it sounded like they might well have agreed that the pregnancy wasn't wanted. Their reaction to that pregnancy was theirs - at that moment. So here comes my "EH". That's their personal business, nobody elses.

Don't think such an event (unwanted pregnancy) is a strange sort of consequence of having sex or a reaction by married couples. Do you think that every single time married people co-conceive that it's brought to full term? Do you think they are in someway obligated to an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy to bring it to full term?
 
Re: Life and Regret

Bucky said:
We are a nation of morals and principles. We should promote life.

If I knew someone that was 99-years old suffering from Parkinson's disease and wanted me to assist him in suicide, I would flatly refuse. A "terrible existence" is all subjective. I actually find that terribly insulting. Do all children born with handicaps, birth defects or medical conditions living a terrible existence? I am guessing if you asked them personally, they would be happy to be alive.
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That is terribly insulting...and arrogant. To imagine for one second that you are a better judge of his quality of life than he is?

You are not obligated in anyway to assist him and unfortunately, it's not even legal right now, but your post does not lend you any moral High Ground whatsoever.

"If I was legally enabled, I would still choose against your will to demand that you remain suffering rather than respect your wishes and suffering."

Yowzaa.
 
Re: Life and Regret

JayDubya said:
Eh. Regret requires some kind of moral compass, humanity, or conscience.

For some, that's a bridge too far - and
those are exactly the sort we should be locking in a prison cell forever.
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You far-right losers won't be locking up anyone anytime soon.

But the day may come when some of you spend some time in a re-education camp in the USA's beautiful Southwestern desert.

have a nice millisecond.

:lol:
 
Re: Life and Regret

Bucky said:
We should promote life.
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That's exactly what pro-choice does.

The desire for every child that's born to be wanted, planned for, desired, loved, nurtured, educated, and to become a life-long productive member of society.

What we don't want is for people who are incapable of providing that (for whatever reason), to be forced into having children against their will simply because other people, not even close to the situation, have some bizarre religious ideology and pipe-dream about how everyone else should think, act, and behave.

Quality of life, not just quantity of life.
 
Re: Life and Regret

shrubnose said:
You far-right losers won't be locking up anyone anytime soon.

But the day may come when some of you spend some time in a re-education camp in the USA's beautiful Southwestern desert.

have a nice millisecond.

:lol:
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Excellent rebuttal, namecalling and offering your support for throwing people in camps for disagreeing with you. Well done.

Oddly enough, I have this funny feeling you should be expecting a private message soon.
 
Re: Life and Regret

JayDubya said:
No, you promote killing innocent human beings. That is all you do.
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It would be nice if some pro choicers just say we support the killing of prenatal humans and be done with it. Then try to support there position with bodily rights arguments or personhood arguments.
 
Re: Life and Regret

I support pro choice. ( the pregnant woman's choice for her own situation )
It is not that I do not value the unborn.
I value the born woman more.
 
Re: Life and Regret

minnie616 said:
I support pro choice. ( the pregnant woman's choice for her own situation )
It is not that I do not value the unborn.
I value the born woman more.
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Which is still discrimination, and still completely at odds with the mission statement of the United States.
 
Re: Life and Regret

GEIxBattleRifle said:
It would be nice if some pro choicers just say we support the killing of prenatal humans and be done with it. Then try to support there position with bodily rights arguments or personhood arguments.
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if abortion is murder.jpg
 
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