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Abortion: How Conservatives and Liberals got it wrong

Legal abortion.

No worries and no hypocrisy. If men had uteruses or were able to get pregnant, we'd support their right to choose as well.

Dont like it? Then I guess you dont understand biology and that 'preference' has nothing to do with it.
 
Roe is a Supreme Court decision.

Most pro choice agree with Roe which allows for states to ban abortion past viability except when the woman's life is at risk or irreparable damage to a major bodily function would occur if the pregnancy continued.

And it was a 7-2 decision with a conservatively appointed court.

But facts dont actually mean as much to some people who cannot examine things outside their own beliefs.
 
you dont understand biology

Oh, the ironing.

Men are just as capable of killing other human beings in cold blood, Lursa; the plumbing doesn't much matter on that score, only the moral compass running the show.
 
Oh, the ironing.

Men are just as capable of killing other human beings in cold blood, Lursa; the plumbing doesn't much matter on that score, only the moral compass running the show.

LOL....yeah, the hypocrisy of quote clipping! WIthin what, 2 minutes of each other? :lamo
Wow, selective quoting much?

Brazen of you, but not entirely unexpected.


Care to address the fact that there really is no 'preferential treatment' or just continue with the dishonesty?
 
We need to stop giving women preferential treatment because of their uterus. A woman should be held to the exact same standard as a man. By giving women preferential treatment, that by definition is gender discrimination.

There is no preferential treatment. Men are perfectly free to have an abortion any time they are pregnant and don't want to be.
 
Yes it most certainly does. Do you not understand what the term 'ANY REASON' means?

And what about all the links and data that she and I have provided showing that elective late term abortions *dont occur?* Do you not understand what THAT means?

Are you a supporter of useless, feel-good legislation?
 
And what about all the links and data that she and I have provided showing that elective late term abortions *dont occur?* Do you not understand what THAT means?

Are you a supporter of useless, feel-good legislation?

Once again, you've strayed off-topic (Democrats thinking ABORTIONS SHOULD BE LEGAL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES?) to ask me irrelevant questions. I have told you I don't wish to converse or answer your questions anymore - To which you choose to ignore like everything else. It's to the point you are relentless on harassing and bullying me into your pseudo-logic. I will ask again, please stop.
 
In politics as with life, most issues and events aren't simply black and white. Unfortunately for abortion, this has become the case. Liberals in general support no restrictions on abortion and wish for abortion to be legal up until 36 weeks of pregnancy. This is ridiculous position and at this point in the pregnancy, the issue of abortion switches from one of privacy and personal freedom, to one of immorality. Mainstream conservatives on the other hand are equally as radical when it comes to abortion as well. Conservatives have now reached a point where abortion should remain illegal under all circumstances, even instances of rape, incest, and if having a child is a danger to the mothers health. By polarizing this issue, both political ideologies have prevented a happy medium from being achieved when it comes to abortion.

When regarding abortion, it should be legal on request up until 16 weeks of pregnancy. 95% of abortions happen within the first 16 weeks so this wouldn't really effect abortion rights all that much. This law would reduce the immorality of abortion by prohibiting third trimester and a good deal of second trimester abortions when the baby...

Actually that's not true. Most pro-choicers are fine with leaving Roe the way it was intended, which bans elective abortion at 24 weeks -- so it's already illegal at the end of the second trimester, and the entirety of the third trimester. As someone who actually does believe in no restrictions, I am in a very small minority amongst Americans. Most pro-choicers are already what you'd call relatively "moderate."

Further, most anti-choicers still make an exception for rape. This is mind-boggling to me, since if they supposedly think it's a "life," that's like saying that if someone assaults me, I can kill my own child in retaliation. It makes less than zero sense, but then again, they were never really about protecting fetuses. They're about punishing women who enjoy sex, and since rape is not enjoyable, they get a pass. But anyway...

So, right out the gate, you've represented this dishonestly, on both sides.

But I'll tell you why I don't agree, either with you, or with the majority of my own side.

Firstly, we already know what happens when you take away the restrictions. You need look no further than Canada, which is one such place.

You know what happens? Nothing, but for one thing.

Women die less often.

Women almost never abort for any reason other than medical necessity once you get past 18 weeks or so. The red tape holds them up, and sometimes cost them their lives, because they can't get an abortion unless they prove their "need," which sometimes involves waiting for them to be actively dying before anyone helps them.

But late-term abortions don't increase if you take away this red tape. In fact, Canada has just the same rate of late-term abortion that the US does. Because women don't abort 6 months into pregnancy for elective reasons.

Forcing women through red tape to prove their medical "need" does nothing but result in women dying while they're waiting for some stuffed shirt to sign off on the paperwork.

But more philosophically speaking, I will just generally never accept the argument that someone who is being used and harmed against their will ever loses their right to revoke consent and take all action necessary to end the harm, including killing. For the sake of this argument, we'll say I accept that a fetus at 16 weeks is a "person." I find that debatable since it doesn't even have a brain or lungs, but whatever.

When it comes to protecting oneself from harm, in most self-defence law, the intent of the offender is irrelevant -- the right remains even if the attacker is so mentally disabled or insane that they have no idea what they're doing. Even if it's a child. Even if it's a victim of coercion only acting against you because they have a gun to their back. It doesn't matter. You still have a right to protect yourself from an objectively existent threat, even if no ill will is ever intended.

So why is it any different with a fetus?

I've helped women in some really sick situations, like being held hostage or beaten into immobility to prevent them from aborting, and by the time they escaped, they were near the cut-off you propose. It's rare, but it happens.

Do I wish to destroy what's left of these women's minds by telling them, "No, we are not going to allow you to regain control of your body"? Sorry, I can't live with that.

Some things are too important to compromise. The right to protect your body is one of those things. "Centrism" is not always reasonable, like when it requires you to take away someone's right to life and freedom in order to enforce it. Just becomes something is centrist doesn't make inherently more ethical. If anything, sometimes being a "centrist" is rather ethically cowardly. Just because something's not pretty, or black-and-white, doesn't mean it's not still a right.
 
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Once again, you've strayed off-topic (Democrats thinking ABORTIONS SHOULD BE LEGAL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES?) to ask me irrelevant questions. I have told you I don't wish to converse or answer your questions anymore - To which you choose to ignore like everything else. It's to the point you are relentless on harassing and bullying me into your pseudo-logic. I will ask again, please stop.

So if it's not that, then you apparently...please correct me if I'm wrong...believe that the govt should be deciding what is in the best interests of the lives of women and their families, current and future? That the govt knows better than each individual the impacts and consequences on her life?

That there should be some beauracratic process for questioning each woman that chooses abortion?
 
Yes it most certainly does. Do you not understand what the term 'ANY REASON' means?

No it certainly does not mean that. I have posted as has Lursa that even those states that have no time limits for abortions do not perform elective abortions past viability.
It isn't done for elective abortions in those states and it's not done for elective reasons in Canada past viability either.

Now, you are the one using false reasoning.
 
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So if it's not that, then you apparently...please correct me if I'm wrong...believe that the govt should be deciding what is in the best interests of the lives of women and their families, current and future? That the govt knows better than each individual the impacts and consequences on her life?

That there should be some beauracratic process for questioning each woman that chooses abortion?

No it's not that, I didn't share my beliefs. I didn't even mention the government, nor anything about them controlling anything or anyone. Someone said a majority of Democratic voters support abortion under ALL circumstances. I corrected them that most Democrats support under SOME circumstances. I however, agreed that at 31% his statement wasn't without reason. You then trod along and begin to spew nonsensical and unrelated questions to what I'm even discussing. Presumably, to antagonize me.
 
No it's not that, I didn't share my beliefs. I didn't even mention the government, nor anything about them controlling anything or anyone. Someone said a majority of Democratic voters support abortion under ALL circumstances. I corrected them that most Democrats support under SOME circumstances. I however, agreed that at 31% his statement wasn't without reason. You then trod along and begin to spew nonsensical and unrelated questions to what I'm even discussing. Presumably, to antagonize me.

So you just want to write about 'any reason' for abortion in a negative context for the heck of it? What is the purpose of expressing this sentiment if there is no suggestion or desire to see these reasons examined and classified as 'justifiable' or not?

Are you just doing so to express disapproval of women or was there an actual constructive idea behind your comments on 'for any reason?'

You bob and weave without commiting to actual direct answers beautifully...that way no one can ever actually examine your beliefs...my guess is that they would do poorly under examination and that is why you practice diversion instead of directness.
 
So you just want to write about 'any reason' for abortion in a negative context for the heck of it? What is the purpose of expressing this sentiment if there is no suggestion or desire to see these reasons examined and classified as 'justifiable' or not?

Are you just doing so to express disapproval of women or was there an actual constructive idea behind your comments on 'for any reason?'

You bob and weave without commiting to actual direct answers beautifully...that way no one can ever actually examine your beliefs...my guess is that they would do poorly under examination and that is why you practice diversion instead of directness.

No, I didn't write it any sort of bias context, because I referenced data. I didn't do so 'out of the heck of it', because I did it in response to someone that I'm not going to repeat again, because I've already stated it.

I'm also not bobbing or weaving anything, I've answered multiple questions - You've chosen to not listen. Just like you've chosen not to listen to my repeated claims to stop harassing me and you continue to do so. Sad that I'll have to ignore another, presumably, adult, because they are incapable of not harassing someone.
 
Yes it most certainly does. Do you not understand what the term 'ANY REASON' means?

Roe only allows legal abortion in all states before viability.

From a Jan. 2013 Washington Post article:
By Aaron Blake January 22, 2013


It's hard to get 70 percent of Americans to agree on much of anything these days. But, for the first time, one of those things is Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion.


According to a new poll from NBC News and the Wall Street Journal, released on the law's 40th anniversary Tuesday,
fully seven in 10 Americans say they would oppose the overturning of the Supreme Court decision.

And perhaps more remarkably, 57 percent say they "feel strongly" that it should not be overturned.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...blicans-should-stop-talking-about-roe-v-wade/
 
Roe only allows legal abortion in all states before viability.

From a Jan. 2013 Washington Post article:

My comment had absolutely 0% to do with Roe v. Wade, the Government, or any other thing you decided to reference that I'm going to ignore due to it's irrelevancy. I was simply reciting polling numbers on public opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
My comment had absolutely 0% to do with Roe v. Wade, the Government, or any other thing you decided to reference that I'm going to ignore due to it's irrelevancy. I was simply reciting polling numbers on public opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

And as I said most pro choice are aware abortions after viability are very rare and don't even consider after viability if/when they say they support abortion for " any " reason.

"Any reason" means even if it is only because she does not want to continue to be pregnant.
 
And as I said most pro choice are aware abortions after viability are very rare and don't even consider after viability if/when they say they support abortion for " any " reason.

"Any reason" means even if it is only because she does not want to continue to be pregnant.

That is your assumption with no direct evidence that they didn't consider such when they were polled. I would be inclined to believe that the people that were polled are generally fully aware of the English language and when they were asked 'Abortion under ANY circumstances', those that agreed understood the merits of that statement. If they didn't, then they voted for 'under some circumstances', aka viability. If that many people failed to vote properly, then I severely question Democratic voter's ability to comprehend the English language.
 
That is your assumption with no direct evidence that they didn't consider such when they were polled. I would be inclined to believe that the people that were polled are generally fully aware of the English language and when they were asked 'Abortion under ANY circumstances', those that agreed understood the merits of that statement. If they didn't, then they voted for 'under some circumstances', aka viability. If that many people failed to vote properly, then I severely question Democratic voter's ability to comprehend the English language.

That's because they know the only abortions that happen after viabilty are to save woman's life/or prevent irreparable damage to a major bodily function.
 
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That's because they know the only abprtions that happen after viabilty are to save woman's life/or prevent irreparable damage to a major bodily function.

Once again, then they presumably or should've voted in the 'Legal under SOME circumstances'. That is a presumption, you don't know how they think or feel, because they were not polled on such. ALL implies the entire quantity, to which it is in reference to all potential circumstances of abortion should be legal. Therefore, one who is voting for in support of that is implying such unless any evidence is shown to prove otherwise, which there isn't.
 
Once again, then they presumably or should've voted in the 'Legal under SOME circumstances'. That is a presumption, you don't know how they think or feel, because they were not polled on such. ALL implies the entire quantity, to which it is in reference to all potential circumstances of abortion should be legal. Therefore, one who is voting for in support of that is implying such unless any evidence is shown to prove otherwise, which there isn't.

I would vote all cases because I know that abortions after viability only happen to save the woman's life or save her from irreparable harm to a major bodiliy function.

Those abortions are so rare there are only 3 clinics and 4 doctors in all the USA who preform them for those extreme cases.
OB/GYNs from all over the USA send their patients with these extreme cases to those clinics and doctors.

Most doctors will NOT perform abortions past viability because the pregnancy has to be more dangerous for the woman to continue it than having the abortion.

The woman still has to go through all the same pain as childbirth but since the fetus is dead when the contractions begin , the contractions are much harder, last longer, and are more painful than most childbirths.
 
That is your assumption with no direct evidence that they didn't consider such when they were polled. I would be inclined to believe that the people that were polled are generally fully aware of the English language and when they were asked 'Abortion under ANY circumstances', those that agreed understood the merits of that statement. If they didn't, then they voted for 'under some circumstances', aka viability. If that many people failed to vote properly, then I severely question Democratic voter's ability to comprehend the English language.

So it IS about time limits on term.

Bob and weave, bob and weave.

You just dont want to answer direct questions.....in a discussion :doh
 
Once again, then they presumably or should've voted in the 'Legal under SOME circumstances'. That is a presumption, you don't know how they think or feel, because they were not polled on such. ALL implies the entire quantity, to which it is in reference to all potential circumstances of abortion should be legal. Therefore, one who is voting for in support of that is implying such unless any evidence is shown to prove otherwise, which there isn't.

Why? I am an educated voter, esp. on abortion, and I vote 'for any reason' or 'with no restrictions' because I *know* that elective late term abortions arent occuring...so why impose or vote based on manufactured reasons?
 
I would vote all cases because I know that abortions after viability only happen to save the woman's life or save her from irreparable harm to a major bodiliy function.

Those abortions are so rare there are only 3 clinics and 4 doctors in all the USA who preform them for those extreme cases.
OB/GYNs from all over the USA send their patients with these extreme cases to those clinics and doctors.

Most doctors will NOT perform abortions past viability because the pregnancy has to be more dangerous for the woman to continue it than having the abortion.

The woman still has to go through all the same pain as childbirth but since the fetus is dead when the contractions begin , the contractions are much harder, last longer, and are more painful than most childbirths.

They are rare, that doesn't mean the person voting to legalize ALL abortions wouldn't support a late-term abortion even if it didn't risk the mother's health. It's becoming pointless arguing over whether somebody who voted they believe abortion should be legalized under ALL circumstances actually meant abortion should be legalized under ALL circumstances when no further data was gathered to contradict that point.
 
They are rare, that doesn't mean the person voting to legalize ALL abortions wouldn't support a late-term abortion even if it didn't risk the mother's health. It's becoming pointless arguing over whether somebody who voted they believe abortion should be legalized under ALL circumstances actually meant abortion should be legalized under ALL circumstances when no further data was gathered to contradict that point.

It is pointless since abortions past viability only happen to save the life of woman or irreparable damage to her health.
If a person agrees with abortion for any reason it would include those about 100 abortions to save her life/ irreparable to her health.
 
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