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Full Abortion Debate Argument

The abortion debate revolves around rather or not unborn humans should be considered persons or not. If you dont establish any arguments towards the personhood side of the debate, say bye bye to legal abortion on demand since you would be allowing pro lifers to equate species membership directly to personhood. That's the big part of the debate FutureIncoming has been hinting to you guys and most of his data on his site revolves around that. So bringing up about dealing with unwanted pregnancies is fine but it's not going to stop pro lifers from attempting to make abortion illegal so you have to dismantle there argumentswhich FutureIncoming his.

What makes you think there's no counter-argument from Pro-choice regarding "Personhood for the Yet to be Born"?

I did Part I and Part II threads on "The Unintended Consequences of Personhood for The Yet to be Born".

Unintended consequences personhood have been discussed an untold number of times in various ways. But Pro-life advocates shutdown, don't want to discuss those consequences.

And to believe that the S.C. doesn't understand much of the "unintended consequences of giving personhood to the yet to be born" would be naive thinking. If they didn't, we'd have seen Legislation try to pass a Constitutional Amendment with gives personhood rights to the yet to be born. S.C. can't just give personhood rights to the yet to be born.
 
Why do we generally find killing humans wrong?

Of course, right and wrong are subjective but there would be no debate on this issue at all if everyone believed the same thing on abortion.

So I tried to reduce it to the most basic thing I could.

What is there to 'prove objectively' about abortion? The science is solid and few on either side disagree with it. The discussion comes down nearly completely to subjective criteria. I'm happy to entertain 'objective proof' that legal abortion is 'right' but I'd have to see that explained (which I have not).
 
You didn't really say anything different from what I wrote. There will always be at least some unwanted pregnancies, and therefore the Overall Abortion Debate must eventually be resolved.

It has been resolved, the problem is just that some women rights disliking people want to go back to the old/barbaric/women rights violating times. Because Roe v. Wade is pretty definitive as to the right of women to choose and that the government does not have a right to interfere in the early part of the pregnancy as to whether a woman does or does not have an abortion.
 
The abortion debate revolves around rather or not unborn humans should be considered persons or not. If you dont establish any arguments towards the personhood side of the debate, say bye bye to legal abortion on demand since you would be allowing pro lifers to equate species membership directly to personhood. That's the big part of the debate FutureIncoming has been hinting to you guys and most of his data on his site revolves around that. So bringing up about dealing with unwanted pregnancies is fine but it's not going to stop pro lifers from attempting to make abortion illegal so you have to dismantle there argumentswhich FutureIncoming his.

Abortions have been around for thousands of years. They have happened in vast quantities whether legal or not.

The abortion debate has EVERYTHING to do with whether the prolife side is willing to be pragmatic.
 
LOL Oh the irony.

Killing a human is wrong, unless it is in self-defense.

Ah, but now you are exhibiting ignorance regarding the meaning of the phrase "a human", which needs to be cured. There is a multiplicity of differing entities, each of which can be called "a human". One example is the brain-dead adult human body on full life-support, which the doctors and the scientists AND the Law agree can indeed be killed, by pulling the life-support plug, without it being wrong. Another example is a cuticle cell, such gets killed by the hundred during ordinary manicures and pedicures. Are you not aware that the only significant difference between a zygote and a cuticle cell is the section of DNA code getting processed by the cell? (There are some other differences, but they are not significant. The zygote is stuffed with food, and is locked inside a "shell" known as the "zona pallucida", while the cuticle cell has neither, but is able to acquire food from the environment that is external to itself --look up "growing meat in a Petri dish").

Per the distinction between "morals" and "ethics", it can be wrong to kill a person, but just because some entity happens to be human, that does not automatically also make it a person (otherwise it would not be legal to pull that "plug" mentioned above). Is your ignorance corrected, now? On what basis does an unborn human entity qualify as a person, such that it could be wrong to kill it? If you make the claim, you need to back it up with Objective evidence, not subjectivity closely linked to simple (and Stupid) Prejudice.
 
What makes you think there's no counter-argument from Pro-choice regarding "Personhood for the Yet to be Born"?

I did Part I and Part II threads on "The Unintended Consequences of Personhood for The Yet to be Born".

Unintended consequences personhood have been discussed an untold number of times in various ways. But Pro-life advocates shutdown, don't want to discuss those consequences.

And to believe that the S.C. doesn't understand much of the "unintended consequences of giving personhood to the yet to be born" would be naive thinking. If they didn't, we'd have seen Legislation try to pass a Constitutional Amendment with gives personhood rights to the yet to be born. S.C. can't just give personhood rights to the yet to be born.

I'd like to know more about what you referenced. What is "the S.C."? Can you provide links to the Part I and Part II threads you mentioned? Thanks!
 
Ah, but now you are exhibiting ignorance regarding the meaning of the phrase "a human", which needs to be cured.

No. My background is in biology. A human is of the species Homo sapiens and having human (H. sapiens) DNA.

Very specific. Very solid science.

Human is any entity comprised of human DNA. Not 'having human DNA' like a finger nail or hair follicle. "Comprised" of human DNA.

Interestingly, a human corpse is comprised of human DNA.
 
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Per the distinction between "morals" and "ethics", it can be wrong to kill a person, but just because some entity happens to be human, that does not automatically also make it a person (otherwise it would not be legal to pull that "plug" mentioned above). Is your ignorance corrected, now? On what basis does an unborn human entity qualify as a person, such that it could be wrong to kill it? If you make the claim, you need to back it up with Objective evidence, not subjectivity closely linked to simple (and Stupid) Prejudice.

I never ever said that "human" equaled "person." As we've already discussed, 'human' is clearly defined by being Homo sapiens.

"Person" is a legal designation in the US and as such, is a not simply 'human.'

U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.

(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.

"Human" is objective. The law, and 'person,' are subjective. Exactly what 'ignorance' am I displaying?
 
Of course, right and wrong are subjective but there would be no debate on this issue at all if everyone believed the same thing on abortion.

So I tried to reduce it to the most basic thing I could.

What is there to 'prove objectively' about abortion? The science is solid and few on either side disagree with it. The discussion comes down nearly completely to subjective criteria. I'm happy to entertain 'objective proof' that legal abortion is 'right' but I'd have to see that explained (which I have not).

The science is solid, BOTH that the unborn are human entities, AND that they cannot possibly qualify as persons. Almost all abortion opponents actually do know what a person truly is, but they refuse to admit it, because doing so is tantamount to immediately Losing the Overall Abortion Debate. Here:

Modern medical science is just about ready to do "head transplants" (look it up!). So, if you were visiting a modern well-equipped medical lab, and some madman cuts your head off with a machete in an effort to murder you, but rescuers arrived in time, do you want them to save your human body, or save your severed head, to save YOU-the-person?

See? A person is a mind, not a body. Researchers who think dolphins might qualify as persons make that claim based on Objective data about the minds of dolphins. Researchers working toward constructing a True Artificial Intelligence know that it will be a mind, software, not just a mass of computer hardware. Without person-class software, the most advanced computer ever dreamed-of can be scrapped as freely as we can pull the life-support plug for a brain-dead human.

Objectively and Measurably, if entities as mentally-developed as adult pigs (they are smarter than dogs) cannot qualify as persons, then it is quite impossible for unborn humans to qualify as persons. Remember, we can measure the mental powers of human infants, any time after full-term birth, and they obviously must be more mentally developed than the unborn. But in no sense do human infants surpass the mental abilities of adult pigs.

And if you would like to see a rationale why it could actually be right to allow abortion, try this link.
 
It has been resolved, the problem is just that some women rights disliking people want to go back to the old/barbaric/women rights violating times. Because Roe v. Wade is pretty definitive as to the right of women to choose and that the government does not have a right to interfere in the early part of the pregnancy as to whether a woman does or does not have an abortion.

If the Overall Abortion Debate had really been resolved, folks would stop arguing about it. Perhaps you should look up the scientific history regarding a substance called "polywater". For a time, there were arguments. Eventually, the discussion was resolved, due to evidence gathered, and there are no arguments about it today.

I'm quite sure that the reason arguments about abortion continue to be made is that not everyone has ALL the data that resolves the Debate. A great many folks are simply ignorant of the resolving data. Some of them choose to be ignorant, by denying the data, and all we can do about them is wait for them to die, while ensuring their children are better-educated. Also, keep in mind that the Constitution allows itself to be Amended, and that Roe vs Wade wasn't actually the best Constitutional argument for legalizing abortion. In the long run, only education can prevent another "Prohibition" Amendment.
 
The science is solid, BOTH that the unborn are human entities, AND that they cannot possibly qualify as persons. Almost all abortion opponents actually do know what a person truly is, but they refuse to admit it, because doing so is tantamount to immediately Losing the Overall Abortion Debate. Here:

Modern medical science is just about ready to do "head transplants" (look it up!). So, if you were visiting a modern well-equipped medical lab, and some madman cuts your head off with a machete in an effort to murder you, but rescuers arrived in time, do you want them to save your human body, or save your severed head, to save YOU-the-person?

See? A person is a mind, not a body. Researchers who think dolphins might qualify as persons make that claim based on Objective data about the minds of dolphins. Researchers working toward constructing a True Artificial Intelligence know that it will be a mind, software, not just a mass of computer hardware. Without person-class software, the most advanced computer ever dreamed-of can be scrapped as freely as we can pull the life-support plug for a brain-dead human.

Objectively and Measurably, if entities as mentally-developed as adult pigs (they are smarter than dogs) cannot qualify as persons, then it is quite impossible for unborn humans to qualify as persons. Remember, we can measure the mental powers of human infants, any time after full-term birth, and they obviously must be more mentally developed than the unborn. But in no sense do human infants surpass the mental abilities of adult pigs.

And if you would like to see a rationale why it could actually be right to allow abortion, try this link.

So you have 'rated' intelligence...sentience?....that's nice. Unfortunately it doesnt take into consideration humans that are brain dead, humans that are in a vegetative state, humans that are mentally disabled, etc. And yet...all are classified as persons. "Legally."

Again, you are expressing opinions...based on a solid (personal) foundation I admit...but still, a designation of 'person' is subjective. The law, rights, equality, personhood...all man-made concepts and therefore, subjective.
 
The abortion debate has EVERYTHING to do with whether the prolife side is willing to be pragmatic.

I disagree. Remember that many of them are willing to allow abortion in cases involving rape or incest, or endangerment of the mother's life --they are already pragmatic per those things. From what I've seen in dissecting their anti-abortion arguments, just about all of them can be traced either to Stupid Prejudice about "human life", OR, to Stupid Greed. For example, remember that religious leaders wrote the Bible, and that document created a "government of the people by the religious leaders, for the religious leaders" (Deuteronomy 17:9-12) --by banning anything and everything associated with birth control (see the "sin of Onan") the religious leaders caused more future tithers to get born, thereby directly benefiting the religious leaders. The accumulated wealth in the Temple of Solomon attracted multiple sackings. And for centuries the wealthiest institution on the planet was the Catholic Church.

There is also a significant secular reason for the greedy to want abortion banned. Imagine a "model economy" in which Supply and Demand are perfectly matched, --and then add more people, without increasing the Supply of resources. In this situation any business-owner can make extra profits two ways. First there will be greater greater Demand, allowing prices to rise. Second is, there will be greater competition for jobs, which prevents wages from rising (and can even depress wages). Every business owner is extremely aware of the Law of Supply and Demand, and seeks to restrict the supply of resources by eliminating competition-- and it surely is not a coincidence how many of them oppose abortion, which of course would increase the population. Anyone who thoroughly studies and thinks about this paragraph can conclude that whenever population rises faster than resource-production, the rich get richer and everyone else gets poorer, while if resource-production increases faster than population, almost everyone gets richer.
 
I disagree. Remember that many of them are willing to allow abortion in cases involving rape or incest, or endangerment of the mother's life --they are already pragmatic per those things. .

It's true. The great majority of pro-life supporters do agree with those exceptions. And yet, still vehemently declare that the unborn, in any stage, is 'equal' to born people.

When asked what distinctions they make in the unborn and born to allow for the unborn to be aborted in those cases then, but not electively, they have without fail, had no answer.

It is an objective fact that if the unborn is equal to born people, there would be no way, legally or morally, to allow for abortion in cases of rape, incest, or the mother's health or a severely defective fetus. But again, no explanation has been forthcoming in many many requests.
 
No. My background is in biology. A human is of the species Homo sapiens and having human (H. sapiens) DNA. Very specific. Very solid science. Human is any entity comprised of human DNA. Not 'having human DNA' like a finger nail or hair follicle. "Comprised" of human DNA.
Interestingly, a human corpse is comprised of human DNA.

If your background was really biology, then you would not have made such a horrible error regarding the difference between "having" and "comprised". Most of the substances comprising a typical Earthly living thing are proteins and fats and carbohydrates, not DNA (although many plants are mostly "lignin", and tiny diatoms have about as much silicon dioxide in their shells as organic matter in their interiors). Human entities are derived from human DNA; the DNA holds the instructions for creating human entities. That doesn't automatically make human entities any more special than rat entities derived from rat DNA. Only Stupid Prejudice claims humans are more special than rats!
 
If your background was really biology, then you would not have made such a horrible error regarding the difference between "having" and "comprised". Most of the substances comprising a typical Earthly living thing are proteins and fats and carbohydrates, not DNA (although many plants are mostly "lignin", and tiny diatoms have about as much silicon dioxide in their shells as organic matter in their interiors). Human entities are derived from human DNA; the DNA holds the instructions for creating human entities. That doesn't automatically make human entities any more special than rat entities derived from rat DNA. Only Stupid Prejudice claims humans are more special than rats!

Not only is my background in biology, I am a technical writer by profession and use my words quite specifically. And I used them correctly. Human 'entities' are not 'derived from' human DNA. They are comprised of human DNA. Human DNA is (jeebus, obviously) the building block. And the bold is useless, extraneous pseudo-intellectual diversion and not particularly relevant to the discussion.

You have yet to explain how my views or usage are made in 'ignorance.'
 
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I never ever said that "human" equaled "person." As we've already discussed, 'human' is clearly defined by being Homo sapiens. "Person" is a legal designation in the US and as such, is a not simply 'human.'
U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant
"Human" is objective. The law, and 'person,' are subjective. Exactly what 'ignorance' am I displaying?

Before I write my entire reply ALL OVER AGAIN I want to mention another reason why I stayed away from this site for a long time. Those running the site STILL have a way-too-short time-out setting, forcing someone like me to log in again after writing a long message, before the message gets posted, and sometimes LOSING that long message in the process! I generally have too many other things to do than to rewrite long messages, when that time-wastage could so-easily be prevented!

Now that that's off my chest, I urge you to keep in mind that the Law existed long before the scientists started studying the concept of personhood --it is no longer a purely Subjective thing!-- else why would anyone bother to find out whether or not dolphins qualified as persons? Furthermore, modern developments have proved that there is a difference between the dictionary definitions of "human being" and "person" --and so the definitions need to be corrected. Remember, a living but brain-dead adult human body on full life-support absolutely is a fully-developed member of the H.Sapiens species, and therefore can be called a "human being" --but medically and scientifically and even Legally, the person is dead, and so it is OK to pull the life-support plug. Even though the body is still alive and human, it is not automatically also a person!

Since the current definition of "human being" is provably flawed, it needs to be corrected. The simplest way to go about correcting it involves paying attention to lots of ordinary conversations, in which phrases like "snail being" and "dandelion being" never get used, while phrases like "intelligent being", "alien being", and "extraterrestrial being" do sometimes get used. By inspection, the word "being" all by itself is a synonym for "person", and the other word in each of the quoted phrases is simply a type-modifier. Since no snail is a person, that's why the phrase "snail being" never gets used.

We can note that the word "being" has another definition, associated with "existence". By that definition, an ordinary snail can legitimately be called a "snail being" (it has existence, after all), and that definition is sometimes used by abortion opponents when talking about unborn human entities. Nevertheless, this is a silly thing to do, because Logical Consistency would require us to use seemingly-endless numbers of similar phrases, like "rock being", "door being", "shoe being", "dung being", and so on, simply because all those things exist, too. We generally don't need to waste language on constantly reiterating the obvious, that physical things exist!

Therefore the simple phrase "a human" suffices to be used when talking about some entity that is associated with membership in the H.Sapiens species. A brain-dead adult most certainly be called "a human". A single isolated cuticle cell can also be called "a human" (remember that stem-cell researchers are trying to discover how to make a specialized cell start processing zygote DNA code instead of its normal DNA code, because the zygote is a stem cell; remember that an ordinary virus can easily make a cell stop processing its normal DNA code, and start processing viral DNA code; remember that "cloning" researchers have been able to get the zygote code processed, that was originally located in a specialized cell's DNA.) The phrase "human being" should only be used when talking about some entity that is both human and a person --which a cuticle cell isn't, and still won't be even after getting stimulated to start processing the zygote code in its DNA. A person is a mind, not a body!

So, you should now no longer be ignorant of the fact that the concept of personhood is no longer subjective, since scientists are specifically looking for Objective data explaining how a typical walking-about human qualifies as a person, while most members of most other species don't. Haven't you noticed how restrictions against killing dolphins have been put into place, the more that Objective data is gathered showing how they can qualify as persons? You should no longer be ignorant of the fact that the old-fashioned definitions that equate "human being" and "person" are provably flawed (what IS your Answer to my Decapitation Question?), and need correction.
 
To Lursa: My other message was too long and the rest of it is here:


In case you didn't know, the US Constitution uses the word "person" throughout, and doesn't use the word "human" even once. Perhaps you might consider the context of human knowledge and beliefs, when the Constitution was written. It was widely believed that angels literally walked among men, for example. No one of that era would claim an angel was a human entity, and no one of that era would claim an angel was a non-person, equivalent to an ordinary animal organism that could be arbitrarily killed. The way I see it, it was quite Logical for the highly religious Founding Fathers to specify "person" instead of "human" --would YOU have denied angels citizenship and right-to-life and voting rights and so on? Well, that was then, and now we have other beliefs --but the Constitution says what it says, and that single thing, using "person" throughout, may prove to be its greatest feature. Today we are quite sure that the Universe is plenty-big-enough to contain vast numbers of other species as intelligent as most humans. The movie and TV series "Alien Nation" could not have made sense if only humans had rights under the Constitution! As it is, it is ready for allowing/encouraging peaceful interactions with non-human intelligent beings, for millennia into the future. Meanwhile, most abortion opponents are suffering from Stupid Prejudice associated with the word "human", almost as if they think we were some sort of "Master Race". Tsk, tsk! That's Idiocy, not just Stupidity!
 
So you have 'rated' intelligence...sentience?....that's nice. Unfortunately it doesn't take into consideration humans that are brain dead, humans that are in a vegetative state, humans that are mentally disabled, etc. And yet...all are classified as persons. "Legally."
Again, you are expressing opinions...based on a solid (personal) foundation I admit...but still, a designation of 'person' is subjective. The law, rights, equality, personhood...all man-made concepts and therefore, subjective.

I have not done any "rating" of intelligence/sentience; various scientists have made Objective measurements. The data exists regardless of anyone's opinions about the data. And you are wrong about the brain dead, because if they truly qualified as persons they would be protected by the Constitution, and the life-support plug would never be allowed to get pulled. Regarding the vegetative state, this is difficult to correctly diagnose (as distinct from comatose or brain-dead), but I personally suspect that when all the data about it is gathered, that group also will lose person status. And ordinary mental disabilities come in a very wide range. While the MOST-handicapped might lose person status, I doubt that will happen before the scientists can figure out how to specify an accurately-measurable dividing line.

One thing to keep in mind is the distinction between "having an ability" and "using an ability". Personhood depends only on having various abilities that ordinary animals don't possess, like the great degree of empathy that allows an average human to mentally place self into the situation of another entity. A great many ordinary fiction tales simply could not be emotionally effective, if that ability did not exist. Nevertheless, the average human does not use that ability everywhere and all the time. With destroyed brains, the brain-dead have most certainly lost the abilities associated with personhood, and those in the persistent vegetative state have likely lost them, too. But the comatose haven't lost the abilities, as is demonstrated whenever someone wakes up from a coma.

Measurements of human development indicate that most humans acquire almost all the abilities associated with personhood by the age of three. And the data about "feral children" indicates that humans don't even start to acquire those abilities until sometime after birth. Many abortion opponents are ignorant of the fact that human mental development is NOT an inevitable result of simple biological growth ("Nature")! Nurture is absolutely essential!

I have plenty of Objective facts on my side, not merely opinions as you erroneously claim.
 
It's true. The great majority of pro-life supporters do agree with those exceptions. And yet, still vehemently declare that the unborn, in any stage, is 'equal' to born people.
When asked what distinctions they make in the unborn and born to allow for the unborn to be aborted in those cases then, but not electively, they have without fail, had no answer.
It is an objective fact that if the unborn is equal to born people, there would be no way, legally or morally, to allow for abortion in cases of rape, incest, or the mother's health or a severely defective fetus. But again, no explanation has been forthcoming in many many requests.

With respect to dooming a mother's life, the same argument can be used that allows killings of ordinary adults in self-defense, to allow abortion. Here's where some additional facts are appropriate, of which many abortion opponents are ignorant.

While it is often claimed that the womb is an "ideal" place for an unborn human, various facts say otherwise. The womb actually exists to protect the woman from having her guts destroyed by the placenta, which is perfectly capable of starting to grow inside a Fallopian Tube, or even in the abdominal cavity entirely outside the womb.

When a human blasotcyst implants (where-ever), it starts producing hormones that command the woman's body to help it construct a placenta. It is not difficult to think of other chemicals that can command human bodies to do various and usually-awful things. Well, to inflict such stuff upon someone is, basically, an "assault". When an ectopic pregnancy threatens to kill, the threatener can be killed instead, thanks to well-established policies regarding self-defense.

The rape/incest allowances for abortion are outside the scope of the preceding, and while you are correct that no truly Objective rationale is offered for allowing it, there are also fewer abortion opponents who would allow those cases, than allow the life-endangerment case.
 
Not only is my background in biology, I am a technical writer by profession and use my words quite specifically. And I used them correctly.
It may be that I've read too many patent applications, in which the word "comprised" is used as if it was synonymous with "constructed from". You might see how I object to the notion that living cells are constructed from DNA.

Human 'entities' are not 'derived from' human DNA.
They are indeed derived from DNA, in terms of the DNA controlling the construction process. Another word might be better than "derived", but I didn't happen to think of one at the time. Living things are constructed in accordance with DNA.

They are comprised of human DNA.
"Comprised of" still sounds like "constructed from". The word "comprising", however, means "contains", and that is certainly true, regarding DNA. Note this means that most cells in the human body (excluding various obvious ones like red blood cells) is each one "a human" per that definition. And it automatically means that "human life" is killed every time you experience so much as a paper cut. Should most folks now be accused of murder, or should we agree that "human life" isn't so special, after all?

Human DNA is (jeebus, obviously) the building block. And the bold is useless, extraneous pseudo-intellectual diversion and not particularly relevant to the discussion.
That was something of a typo. The parenthesized segment was inserted some time after most of the paragraph was written, and after a portion of it was bolded --that parenthesized segment should not have been part of the bolded block.

You have yet to explain how my views are made in 'ignorance.'
Then either you haven't been reading what I've written, or you have been ignoring it. What IS your answer to my Decapitation Question, regarding saving YOU-the-person?
 
You have yet to explain how my views or usage are made in 'ignorance.'
This is something you originally wrote:
Killing a human is wrong, unless it is in self-defense.
The claim that killing a human "is wrong" is opinion, not Objective fact/truth, and the way I started to prove it was just an opinion was this:
Ah, but now you are exhibiting ignorance regarding the meaning of the phrase "a human", which needs to be cured.
Among various messages I explained how most any DNA-possessing cell in a human body can qualify as "a human", trivially different from a zygote --and it is well known that killing ordinary human cells is not wrong --it is even deliberately done during manicures and pedicures, to say nothing of other cosmetic procedures like "nose jobs", and any number of serious/life-saving surgical procedures.

Therefore your original statement is provably inaccurate. Since you have also claimed this:
Not only is my background in biology, I am a technical writer by profession and use my words quite specifically.
--it logically follows that you were ignorant of something, when stating the 2nd quoted thing above. Hopefully, you are no longer ignorant of that thing.
 
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Now that that's off my chest, I urge you to keep in mind that the Law existed long before the scientists started studying the concept of personhood --it is no longer a purely Subjective thing!-- else why would anyone bother to find out whether or not dolphins qualified as persons? Furthermore, modern developments have proved that there is a difference between the dictionary definitions of "human being" and "person" --and so the definitions need to be corrected. Remember, a living but brain-dead adult human body on full life-support absolutely is a fully-developed member of the H.Sapiens species, and therefore can be called a "human being" --but medically and scientifically and even Legally, the person is dead, and so it is OK to pull the life-support plug. Even though the body is still alive and human, it is not automatically also a person!



Hiccup! Server issues, duplicate post. Please see below.
 


Now that that's off my chest, I urge you to keep in mind that the Law existed long before the scientists started studying the concept of personhood --it is no longer a purely Subjective thing!-- else why would anyone bother to find out whether or not dolphins qualified as persons? Furthermore, modern developments have proved that there is a difference between the dictionary definitions of "human being" and "person" --and so the definitions need to be corrected. Remember, a living but brain-dead adult human body on full life-support absolutely is a fully-developed member of the H.Sapiens species, and therefore can be called a "human being" --but medically and scientifically and even Legally, the person is dead, and so it is OK to pull the life-support plug. Even though the body is still alive and human, it is not automatically also a person!



Yes, law is subjective and it is informed by many things, like culture, morality, ethics, science, etc. So of course it changes.

And you are supporting the US Code definition of 'person' that I posted.

But you have yet to prove in any way that the determination of 'person' is objective when applied to abortion, since 'person' is a legal term (at least in the context of this subject).
 
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