Increasing number of disabled Israeli children sue for not being aborted

Ikari said:

Anyone who claims that they'd been better off aborted than living and whom is still drawing breath is a liar.

Click to expand...

Has it occurred to you that those two (being aborted before your life begins) and killing yourself are radically different things?

For one thing, the former involves an action taken without your consent (you don't have any, you're not even a "you" yet) and the latter involves an intentional ending of one's life.

Suicide is illogical, because no matter what the circumstances may be, you may as well continue on living. There's no reason not to.

I haven't committed suicide, largely because I live for others not for myself. I recognize I won't know happiness in this life, and I know for certain there are no other lives waiting for me once I cease breathing as you put it. However, I intend to do whatever I can do help humanity. I'm a very charitable person and a loving person I can't imagine anyone would reject the wisdom of this quote:

"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile." - Albert Einstein

Smart said:

Has it occurred to you that those two (being aborted before your life begins) and killing yourself are radically different things?

Click to expand...

One is homicide, the other is suicide. If you truly feel that you should have been the victim of homicide, then you have the option of remedying the unfortunate fact no one else has killed you by killing yourself.

If you don't, we can safely assume you value your life and don't in fact truly believe you should be dead. \

However you derive fulfillment is irrelevant to the above.



This sort of lawsuit is frivolous and absurd.

Smart said:

Has it occurred to you that those two (being aborted before your life begins) and killing yourself are radically different things?

For one thing, the former involves an action taken without your consent (you don't have any, you're not even a "you" yet) and the latter involves an intentional ending of one's life.

Suicide is illogical, because no matter what the circumstances may be, you may as well continue on living. There's no reason not to.

I haven't committed suicide, largely because I live for others not for myself. I recognize I won't know happiness in this life, and I know for certain there are no other lives waiting for me once I cease breathing as you put it. However, I intend to do whatever I can do help humanity. I'm a very charitable person and a loving person I can't imagine anyone would reject the wisdom of this quote:

"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile." - Albert Einstein

Click to expand...

They're not as different as you want to make it seem. It is the end of existence, turning into a state of non-existence. If one states they’d rather be aborted than live, then they’d rather be in a state of non-existence. The fact that one may say that, but refuse to set themselves in that state bears more on their deep rooted desire to keep existing. Understandable, existing is hella fun even if you have a rough row; much better than the alternative. It’s why I say anyone who says they’d been better off aborted but continues to draw breath is a liar. Because they found something to live for, a reason to keep going, a way to enjoy the life either through themselves or through others. Life….it kicks ass.

Suicide isn’t illogical; it’s just for the committed.

Ikari said:

They're not as different as you want to make it seem. It is the end of existence, turning into a state of non-existence. If one states they’d rather be aborted than live, then they’d rather be in a state of non-existence. The fact that one may say that, but refuse to set themselves in that state bears more on their deep rooted desire to keep existing. Understandable, existing is hella fun even if you have a rough row; much better than the alternative. It’s why I say anyone who says they’d been better off aborted but continues to draw breath is a liar. Because they found something to live for, a reason to keep going, a way to enjoy the life either through themselves or through others. Life….it kicks ass.

Suicide isn’t illogical; it’s just for the committed.

Click to expand...

Not quite - there's a fairly big difference between removing yourself from something and never being that thing in the first place. How many heroin users, smokers and alcoholics wish they'd never had their first one, but can't now break the addiction? Life is addictive, even if it makes you miserable.

iangb said:

Not quite - there's a fairly big difference between removing yourself from something and never being that thing in the first place. How many heroin users, smokers and alcoholics wish they'd never had their first one, but can't now break the addiction? Life is addictive, even if it makes you miserable.

Click to expand...

They can break the addiction if they want. It may be harder to kill yourself by your own hand than through the hands of another; but perhaps this is really the heart of the matter. We all want to pretend this or that about the life of the unborn human, but we never even give it the chance. Maybe we're "addicted" to life because life is pretty god damned kick ass and much much better than not existing.

Smart said:

If you're genetically flawed, you're of no real use to humanity. I don't want to sound Spartan, but we should be spending our money and time helping Senior citizens, cancer patients, veterans, etc. Not flawed-from-utero humans.

Click to expand...

Smart said:

Even if a Down alive today is able to be "successful" (subjective), it doesn't change the fact they are inherently deformed. Some ethicists don't even believe they are human because of how deformed they actually are. I tend to agree with them.

Click to expand...

Smart said:

. I'm a very charitable person and a loving person

Click to expand...

The quote above seems to fly in the face of previous two.

Physical deformity has nothing to do with what makes us human. The DNA of a deformed person is that of a human, even if it results in less than perfection. Our humanity comes from our beliefs and actions towards others. To look upon the disabled and deformed and say they have no right to exist because one deems they are of no use or are physically flawed, voids that person's humanity for me. No one has the right to judge whether another is of any use to humanity.

For instance, there is a lovely older woman in my community who was born without arms and legs. She has a service dog to help her get around in her wheel chair and the support of her family beyond that. She held a full time position at a local big box store, for years, greeting and directing shoppers. This is a woman, I'm sure you would look at and say she should have no right to exist, but yet there she was, earning a living doing a very useful job.

Smart said:

Not at all, you can be pro-choice and strongly object to an individual woman's choice.

Click to expand...

I am pro-choice and I strongly disagree with that statement as logically flawed. Pro-choice means, you support a mother's choice to carry or terminate a pregnancy. Your own agreement has nothing to do with it.

Smart said:

We used to place more value on life. Seeing people suffer through disability is one of the hardest things for me. I'm horrified at the prospect that our society will continue to allow such people to come into the world. If there was no foreknowledge of their disabilities - that is fine. However, any such disability detected in utero is not only cause for abortion - but it would be unethical not to abort.

Not only do children deserve to be wanted and loved, but they also deserve to be physically equivalent to the children around them.

Click to expand...

Placing value on life does not, to me, mean quantifying it on what society gets out of a person's life. There are millions of "perfect" human beings, taking up space, actively harming their fellows or consuming without a thought to giving back to society. How are they anymore valuable than "a Down"? Or a person with Trisomy-18 whom their family loves and treasures? Or the disabled person who learned to take care of their self and does so proudly?

As to the question of physical equivalence, by who's standard? Keeping in mind that children grow into adults, is the super-athlete earning millions the standard? Or some lesser level? Who decides where that line is?

choiceone said:

Actually, there was a case like this in Florida, where a young man sued because his mother had not been allowed to have an abortion, but if I remember correctly, he did not win his suit.

Click to expand...

Really? I have heard stories about children suing their mom for not having an abortion, usually it is a story that deals with a severely handicapped young adult...but I can't find any real news story about it! So I wondering if this is just a fantastic and interesting myth or if this has actually happened. Do you know any more details? Some sources would be lovely. I can't seem to find anything about it, particularly in the US where I live.

Goshin said:

If you're a child disabled by birth defects, no need to sue for not being aborted.... just abort yourself now, if that's how you feel about it.


I'm sorry, but dayum.... lots of people are born with some kind of issue, and I've known many to go on to make a life for themselves anyway... this is just greed.

Click to expand...

Does that mean that you are in favor of legal suicide?

If an unborn has the right to life then shouldn't the unborn also have the right to die...and ultimately who should make that choice for the unborn?

D_NATURED said:

Does that mean that you are in favor of legal suicide?

Click to expand...

It is impossible to prosecute someone who actually commits suicide. :roll:


While there are exceptions, most "attempted" suicides weren't really trying. I've seen the aftermath of someone who seriously intended to do it, and the serious ones rarely fail.