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For the first time ever, I really am afraid this election

Sarcogito said:
It shouldn't, but it does. And as long as it does, it shouldn't deprive that right from a segment of our population.
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Then why just gay's apply for it? Why not anyone who want's to reap the benefit's that it gives, two-friends, two brothers, anyone? Why hold any limitations on marriage at all? polygamy? Because the arguments made pretty much open up anyone.
 
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CaptainCourtesy said:
Yeah, getting rid of the EPA is another reason that I will not vote for Romney. Then again, I am always in favor or more... or at least more intelligent regulation. Private industry has shown that without regulation, for the most part they do not care who they kill or what they destroy as long as they make money.
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The personal deception and conscious mendacity in that statement is strong.

This is the sort of unmitigated bilge that the DEMs are reduced to pinning their campaign hopes on.

It is shameful.
 
celticwar17 said:
Then why just gay's apply for it? Why not anyone who want's to reap the benefit's that it gives, two-friends, two brothers, anyone? Why hold any limitations on marriage at all? polygamy? Because the arguments made pretty much open up anyone.
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And I'm fine with that. If they're consenting adults then what business is it of the government's. I somehow doubt if you legalize it all that you will have a rush of brothers going out to get married to each other.
 
Redress said:
Two liberal judges likely to retire this term, and 1 tops conservative judge. It's too important to vote for any one but a democrat. A 7-2 split favoring conservatives in the Supreme Court would do far too much damage.
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I see this as an opportunity to begin reversing the trend of activist SCOTUS justices. In most years, my primary criterion for deciding my presidential vote is "who is most likely to appoint justices who have a strict constructionist view of their role." i.e. = I hate justices who think they can just 'interpret' the constitution to say anything that THEIR desire hopes it said.

I want justices who will uphold the sanctity of the document. And when there are situations arising that are not absolutely clear in the constitution, then it doesn't happen.

If you want that thing to happen then take it to Congress. That is the congress role. There should be no such thing as an issue raised by some interest group making it thru 'job-shopped' lower courts and landing on the steps of the SCOTUS where a couple of liberal minded justices can say = "wow - that would be really nice" and then set a precedent that has untold 'unforeseen consequences' for generations to come, if not forever.

And if there is an absolute restriction in the constitution that somebody wants to change - the constitution itself provides a relief. Make an amendment to the constitution. Don't just change it arbitrarily via the job-shopped courts route.
 
Crosscheck said:
Getting rid of the EPA isn't the solution. Do you want them to get rid of the Health Dept that sends out food inspectors to restaurants too? Why not, you trust everyone behind the closed kitchen doors?
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You are the second person that has mis-read that. I said "I think he can get rid of the EPA stuff".

Stuff = the regulations that are set to go into effect in 2013.


But you go ahead and vote for your Morman God am certain he has the solution for everything.
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I'm not voting for a God, or a religious leader... I'm voting for a US President. Romney's religion is as irrelevant to me as Rev. Wright was to Obama supporters. Mormons don't run around saying "G'Damned America" so I don't have any issue with them.

My vote is about one thing and one thing only... It's all about who I believe can best fix our lagging economy and who has the better economic philosophy. That person hands down, is Mitt Romney... We just can't afford 4 more years of lack-luster growth.
 
Sarcogito said:
And I'm fine with that. If they're consenting adults then what business is it of the government's. I somehow doubt if you legalize it all that you will have a rush of brothers going out to get married to each other.
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There is that movie that I forget, and it's about two straight friends getting married for the financial benefits. As soon as the social connotation is dropped it will be free to everyone. This is why I think it should be changed to be called a civil union.
But isn't hypocritical to only target the gay's and not anyone else who may want the same benefit's?
 
celticwar17 said:
There is that movie that I forget, and it's about two straight friends getting married for the financial benefits. As soon as the social connotation is dropped it will be free to everyone. This is why I think it should be changed to be called a civil union.
But isn't hypocritical to only target the gay's and not anyone else who may want the same benefit's?
Click to expand...

I generally don't comment on homosexual-oriented threads. Nothing could be less important to me.

However this 'same-sex' marriage crap is beyond my ken. The unintended consequences of this include the concept that a couple of criminals could 'get married' so that if one is caught, he cannot testify against the other.

My major concern with same-sex 'marriage' is that I don't like re-defining well known terms. I refuse to use the word "gay" for instance. They are homosexuals. If they want a more 'likeable' term, then let them coin a new word. I read that homosexuals are supposed to be quite creative in that regard.

However, if they need to appropriate an existing word, then they should use something like 'Frisco' as their moniker.

OK - enough on a homosexual thread - I am over and out.

Worthless waste of time.
 
Grim17 said:
This will be my 8th presidential election and tomorrow I will go to the polls and cast my vote for Mitt Romney. But there is something very different this time... All day today I was preoccupied, or I guess a better word would be worried... worried about the country's economy and that has never happened to me on the day before any election.
Although I always want my candidate to win, this is the first time I have ever been struck with fear at the thought my guy might lose. In 2004 for example, I really thought John Kerry would have been an awful choice. He was just the wrong man at the wrong time, but even then the thought of him actually winning didn't strike fear in me at all.

All partisanship and political banter aside folks, if Obama wins this election, we are in for a world of hurting and it starts before he gets sworn in for his second term. Whether you're liberal, moderate, conservative, republican, democrat, or libertarian, most will agree that 1) our economy is still very fragile and we are still far from recovering, and 2) the last thing the country needs is for more costs to be imposed on small business or the American people.

Well that is precisely what's going to happen in 2013 if Obama is elected, and most of those costs take effect starting on January 1st. They are:

Obamacare costs
Federal tax increases
New EPA regulations

Let's look at all 3, starting with:

Obamacare costs

Here's a list of the top five that take effect on January 1, 2013

1. Medical Device Tax – a $20 billion tax increase
2. Special Needs Kids Tax – a $13 billion tax increase
3. Surtax on Investment Income – a $123 billion tax increase
4. “Haircut” for Medical Itemized Deductions – a $15.2 billion tax increase
5. Medicare Payroll Tax Hike -- an $86.8 billion tax increase​

View attachment 67137385


Federal tax increases/changes

* 5% increase Long-Term Capital Gain Rates
* Qualified Dividend Income Rates double
* Itemized Deductions reduced
* Increased estate tax
* 3-5 percent increase across the board on individuals.
* Additional employee portion of payroll tax
* Phaseout of personal exemptions
* Decrease in standard deduction for married taxpayers filing jointly
* Loss of income exclusion for employer-provided educational assistance
* Decrease on above-the-line student loan interest deduction
* Home sale exclusion. Heirs, estates, and qualified revocable trusts
* Decrease in credit for household and dependent care expenses
* Child credit amount cut in half
* Phasing out of Earned Income Tax Credit


New EPA regulations

In 2013, thirteen new EPA regulations are scheduled to go into effect according to the report from the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. The 2 biggest are:

1. The Greenhouse gas regulations - Costing power plants $300-$400 billion a year
2. New Ozone standards - Cost up to $1 trillion and up to 7.4 million jobs lost

Although energy companies will be the ones hit with those penalties, those costs will be passed on to all of us with higher electric bills.

I don't know about everyone else, but these things have me seriously worried about the nations economy. All these added costs to both business and the consumer is just going to make things worse. I think there's a real chance we will plunge into another recession in 2013 unless Romney is elected and squashes a lot of this stuff.

I really hope you all will put ideology aside for a second and think about all of this, because if Obama is elected, this is what we all will be facing in less than 2 months.
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You said all partisinship and political banter aside, and then you went on to make a partisin statement. I feel strongly that if Mitt Romney wins, we can kiss our economic recovery good bye. And yes, I said economic recovery because we have been in an economic recovery for years now. I'm also afraid for my girls for what the GOP is trying to do to their reproductive rights. There has been zero attempt by the GOP to work to improve the economy. They have been spending their time trying to pass more restrictive abortion legislation. I also fear that the GOP would be quicker to go to war than using diplomatic measures. My daughter is joining the Air Force reserves and my son is in Iraq. I don't want the foreign policies of the Bush era back, and ROmney has too many former Bush advisors and the GOP has too many war mongers amongst them. That scares me more than you could possibily know.
My husband is a small businessman and he would benefit greatly from Obama's infrastructure bill passing. The GOP don't want it to pass. There is no data out there that suggests small busineses would be harmed more from an Obama administration than a Romney administration.
War costs also. Getting rid of the EPA would cost the American people dearly. Federal Tax increases are not always a bad thing. The Clinton era taxes helped to bring about a surplus. We have a past to look to for guidence on how to bring about a balanced budget. Raising taxes on income over 250K and responsible cuts in spending will improve our debt and our economy. That is a proven method.
There is also a trust issue. I can't trust Romney will do anything he said he would do, and I can't trust Ryan won't try end our social programs.

I guess what I am trying to say is, you see it from your point of view and I see it from mine. YOu and I feel passionate about this country, we just disagree on what it will take to fix the problems we have.
 
Grim17 said:
This will be my 8th presidential election and tomorrow I will go to the polls and cast my vote for Mitt Romney. But there is something very different this time... All day today I was preoccupied, or I guess a better word would be worried... worried about the country's economy and that has never happened to me on the day before any election.
Although I always want my candidate to win, this is the first time I have ever been struck with fear at the thought my guy might lose. In 2004 for example, I really thought John Kerry would have been an awful choice. He was just the wrong man at the wrong time, but even then the thought of him actually winning didn't strike fear in me at all.
Click to expand...

I have the exact same fear but for the other candidate. There is ZERO, nada, no evidence that a 30 year old tax cut strategy is working or has ever worked. Why we continue to beat that dead horse, I have no idea.

Note the small bend downward after 1980:
fredgraph.png


Even if you don't see it you can't possibly tell me that the numerous tax cuts for the wealthy increased growth.

How about on this one, do you see an increased rate of investment with a lower capital gains rate. I sure don't?

cap_inv_fig.png


The trickle down, 30-year old mantra is tired and driving our country into the ground. The problems of this country are not 4 years old, they're 30 years old. I really do sympathize because I know exactly how you feel in terms of worry. But start doing some research - unless you treat your politics like your religion, the answers are out there and they don't support the current Republican mindset.
 
celticwar17 said:
There is that movie that I forget, and it's about two straight friends getting married for the financial benefits. As soon as the social connotation is dropped it will be free to everyone. This is why I think it should be changed to be called a civil union.
But isn't hypocritical to only target the gay's and not anyone else who may want the same benefit's?
Click to expand...

There are heterosexual couples that do tht also.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
My biggest concern is that if Romney gets elected, he has the opportunity to nominate several Supreme Court Justices... most likely conservatives. Under no circumstances do I want that to happen.
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EXACTLT CC....this should be reason alone to vote for Obama. The next two justices likely to retire are both moderates. Romney has already indicated that he would replace them with extreme right wing justices in the vein of Scalia and Thomas. If that happens, we will see the implementation of the right-wing social agenda, civil rights will be set back decades and the rights of the people will be squashed by rulings in favor of the corporation.

Supreme Court picks are lifetime appointments and Romney would appoint activist judges that would change the Supreme Court for at least the next two-three decades.
 
disneydude said:
EXACTLT CC....this should be reason alone to vote for Obama. The next two justices likely to retire are both moderates. Romney has already indicated that he would replace them with extreme right wing justices in the vein of Scalia and Thomas. If that happens, we will see the implementation of the right-wing social agenda, civil rights will be set back decades and the rights of the people will be squashed by rulings in favor of the corporation.

Supreme Court picks are lifetime appointments and Romney would appoint activist judges that would change the Supreme Court for at least the next two-three decades.
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GOOD! We need extreme right wing judges!
 
Amigo said:
GOOD! We need extreme right wing judges!
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More activist judges that will give us more "Citizens United" cases?

Judges that will impose big brother big government?

Judges that will take away civil rights protections?


Thank god it isn't going to happen.....but it is something that people should think about when they go vote.

A Vote for Romney is a vote for activist right-wing judges and a vote for government control over individuals.
 
disneydude said:
More activist judges that will give us more "Citizens United" cases?

Judges that will impose big brother big government?

Judges that will take away civil rights protections?


Thank god it isn't going to happen.....but it is something that people should think about when they go vote.

A Vote for Romney is a vote for activist right-wing judges and a vote for government control over individuals.
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You are confusing that with Obama.
 
pdog said:
I have the exact same fear but for the other candidate. There is ZERO, nada, no evidence that a 30 year old tax cut strategy is working or has ever worked. Why we continue to beat that dead horse, I have no idea.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to get into another pissing match over the effectiveness of the Kennedy, Reagan and Bush tax cuts/economic policies AGAIN. All anyone has to do is go to the BLS website and see the effect that each of those had on the unemployment rate and job creation.

Let me simply ask you this then... Is it your belief that the things I listed on post #1 that take effect in 2013, are going to have a positive effect, negative effect or no effect, on the finances of middle to lower income Americans, on creating jobs and on the over all economy?
 
Amigo said:
You are the one who hasn't. Our side is the side of limited government and freedom. Remember the Tea Party?
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Wow.....you really believe that one-liner crap? Why don't you read up on...or at least look at the actual agenda. It has very little to do with limited government and freedom. It has EVERYTHING to do with huge big brother government imposing limits on personal freedoms.
 
My biggest concern is that Romney must get elected so he has the opportunity to nominate several Supreme Court Justices..

Hopefully literate ones. Some people seem to call literacy a conservative trait.
 
celticwar17 said:
But isn't hypocritical to only target the gay's and not anyone else who may want the same benefit's?
Click to expand...

I suppose, if you take an all or nothing approach to life. But typically advancement in civil rights are incremental. Legalizing mixed race marriages was such an incremental step, one that my wife and I are particularly happy about.
 
Amigo said:
GOOD! We need extreme right wing judges!
Click to expand...

Throughout the history of the Supreme Court there has been many good decisions which have came out of "liberal courts"
 
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Grim17 said:
I think he can get rid of the EPA stuff and I'm confident he will be able to get the taxes worked out with the house and senate... The Obamacare taxes are what's going to be tough though.
Click to expand...

Romney's not actually going to change anything. Take that to the bank.
 
Grim17 said:
This will be my 8th presidential election and tomorrow I will go to the polls and cast my vote for Mitt Romney. But there is something very different this time... All day today I was preoccupied, or I guess a better word would be worried... worried about the country's economy and that has never happened to me on the day before any election.
Although I always want my candidate to win, this is the first time I have ever been struck with fear at the thought my guy might lose. In 2004 for example, I really thought John Kerry would have been an awful choice. He was just the wrong man at the wrong time, but even then the thought of him actually winning didn't strike fear in me at all.

All partisanship and political banter aside folks, if Obama wins this election, we are in for a world of hurting and it starts before he gets sworn in for his second term. Whether you're liberal, moderate, conservative, republican, democrat, or libertarian, most will agree that 1) our economy is still very fragile and we are still far from recovering, and 2) the last thing the country needs is for more costs to be imposed on small business or the American people.

Well that is precisely what's going to happen in 2013 if Obama is elected, and most of those costs take effect starting on January 1st. They are:

Obamacare costs
Federal tax increases
New EPA regulations

Let's look at all 3, starting with:

Obamacare costs

Here's a list of the top five that take effect on January 1, 2013

1. Medical Device Tax – a $20 billion tax increase
2. Special Needs Kids Tax – a $13 billion tax increase
3. Surtax on Investment Income – a $123 billion tax increase
4. “Haircut” for Medical Itemized Deductions – a $15.2 billion tax increase
5. Medicare Payroll Tax Hike -- an $86.8 billion tax increase​

View attachment 67137385


Federal tax increases/changes

* 5% increase Long-Term Capital Gain Rates
* Qualified Dividend Income Rates double
* Itemized Deductions reduced
* Increased estate tax
* 3-5 percent increase across the board on individuals.
* Additional employee portion of payroll tax
* Phaseout of personal exemptions
* Decrease in standard deduction for married taxpayers filing jointly
* Loss of income exclusion for employer-provided educational assistance
* Decrease on above-the-line student loan interest deduction
* Home sale exclusion. Heirs, estates, and qualified revocable trusts
* Decrease in credit for household and dependent care expenses
* Child credit amount cut in half
* Phasing out of Earned Income Tax Credit


New EPA regulations

In 2013, thirteen new EPA regulations are scheduled to go into effect according to the report from the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. The 2 biggest are:

1. The Greenhouse gas regulations - Costing power plants $300-$400 billion a year
2. New Ozone standards - Cost up to $1 trillion and up to 7.4 million jobs lost

Although energy companies will be the ones hit with those penalties, those costs will be passed on to all of us with higher electric bills.

I don't know about everyone else, but these things have me seriously worried about the nations economy. All these added costs to both business and the consumer is just going to make things worse. I think there's a real chance we will plunge into another recession in 2013 unless Romney is elected and squashes a lot of this stuff.

I really hope you all will put ideology aside for a second and think about all of this, because if Obama is elected, this is what we all will be facing in less than 2 months.
Click to expand...

That's a nice summary you laid out. Unfortunately it's true that neither Obama nor Romney is going to be able to do much about it with the Congress split.

The fears about Romney's Supreme Court appointments are baseless. There's not a potential justice anywhere out there that will vote against Roe v Wade, certainly not one that Romney would nominate. We would be lucky if a Pres. Romney nominated a real conservative, but I doubt that will happen.

What the American government is doing to the energy industry with the EPA makes me think of a man cutting his own throat slowly. At what point will he realize that he's doing the wrong thing? Will it be after he's severed his carotid artery, and it's too late to change course?

So, as you've shown, we are headed for years of poor economic growth and continued high unemployment due to higher taxes, higher regulatory burdens, dramatically higher energy costs, and, I'll add, overall distrust of the government within the business community. (Except for those few fortunate business cronies of the Democrats, of course, but then they always take more than they produce.) It might therefore be better if Obama is still around to fully own all of the damage he has done to America.
 
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