Hold Your Nose .. And Vote For Romney

samsmart said:

I find it amusing that people think that all centrists have the same political platform.

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There is not one person on the planet with the exact same political perspective, so your appeal to absurdity here is meaningless.

Analysis of where people are with respect to freedom v. security, liberty v. justice respectively, and how those play out in general on the issues, has been deemed sufficient by intelligent political science to create the grouping designations on the political spectrum to which we refer, radical, liberal, centrist, conservative, reactionary and the like.

Though there may be differences in the liberal camp, let's say, that puts some liberals near the border with radicals, by definition there's still enough that keeps them in the liberal camp and excludes them from the radical camp, according to political science.

With that in mind, when someone calls themself a centrist on a given social or economic-fiscal issue, matter, candidate, whatever, but it's clear, from political science's perspective, that they're really in the conservative camp on the matter, backing their position up with appeal to conservative principles, not centrist principles, then no matter what they may want to call themselves, they are nevertheless truly conservative on the matter.

Back to the OP ..

.. The bottom line here is that Obama is utilizing race-baiting in his pandering to win the election, and that's reprehensible behavior for a sitting President .. and, he wants to legalize 20 million illegals, give them amnesty and make them legal to work in America, an act which would immediately cause wage-scales across the country in nearly every industry to plummet.

We cannot allow America and the high American economic standard of living to be killed by this Multi-Cultural Internationalist who wants to dismantle America as part of his ideological one-world government goal.

The only way we can do this is for centrists and other swings to vote for Romney and not for a meaningless "third" party candidate competitor to the Republicans.

The survival of our very country itself is at stake this election like never before.

Ontologuy said:

Anyone can post graphics. The challenge is to post graphics that are meaningful, that do not originate from a limited and biased questionaire.

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Ontologuy said:

I realize you're used to posting links to Youtube and MTV videos, but it's totally different here where presenting real facts in meaningful relevance from your own knowledge and in your on words is appropriate.

You simply aren't going to find what you're lookiing for to make a cogent argument from referencing your biased surveys and polls that were not designed at all to determine where people actually are on the political spectrum but were designed to create guestimates of how a given real or imagined vote on a specific issue(s) might result, etc.

If you can find a survey/poll that was truly designed to find where people definitively are on the political spectrum and is obviously without bias, then by all means post it because that would be relevant. I haven't found such an animal, and that's because polsters and those who fund them simply aren't interested in such a non-profitable academic exercise. But if you want to really scrutinize the internet and be discriminating in hunting for such a thing, be my guest.

In the meantime we have the tried and true political science analysis that distinguishes positioning on the political spectrum with respect to where people are with respect to the dynamic complements of freedom v. security, the foundations of liberty v. justice, and how they play out in social and economic-fiscal issues.

I presented in accurate words how these dynamics reflect the positions on the political spectrum definitively, specifying what in these terms defines the great majority at the center of the political spectrum.

If you can speak to these intelligently using your own personal knowledge, then a real discussion may ensue.

If you're just looking for self-serving links, the mechanics of which are engrained in you from all the entertainment forum posting you do, then you'll be at a significant disadvantage in this forum.

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To the red, I gather you couldn't find any.

I didn't use MTV or Youtube links. I used Pew and Gallup, eliminating the Reason-Rupe, those are two venerable polling institutions.

I have posted my own thoughts and opinions at length, posting links to back up my assertions and asked you to substantiate yours beyond a blog post that supports your point of view. You have been unable to do so.

Unless you have more than put downs and dodging, actual data would be welcome, I think you're out of gas.

Grant said:

It does seem to making Centrism an ideology. Perhaps they might also be called Independents.

The point of Romney being an excellent candidate is certainly valid. There have been a few successful, clean living people to grace American politics and Mitt Romney is certainly one of them. There is not a whiff of scandal attached to his name, apart from those who to try to manufacture it.

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That must be why he is the 1st Presdential candidate in 40 years to refuse to release relevant tax returns. No candidate has been so secretive about his policies or his finances. Why is that?

IndepCentristMA said:

I love when people who are just now reading about what happened in MA over the course of 4 years in little biased partisan excerpts written based off opinion pieces by liberals from the Boston Globe, the MA Taxpayer Foundation (run by a former Dukakis adminstration member), etc. try to tell me about what happened in MA while I was here in MA and actively involved in the political scene at the time...

Romney got several pieces of legislation through that legislature that were controversial in nature, and would not have gotten passed before Romney, or after Romney. Those would include spending cuts as opposed to tax increases, eliminating bi-lingual education, the Welcome Home Bill, Melanie's Law, the healthcare plan, etc. He also used his exective powers to get several others accomplished as well. Those would include instituting departmental consolidation, indexing fees to match inflation, forcing the resignation of Whitey Bulger's brother Billy, forcing the resignation of Matt Amorello and taking over control of the Big Dig to straighten it out, etc.

The real indication of how great Romney was as a governor... His successor, Deval Patrick (Obama's buddy), who is of the complete opposite political pursuation, has actually kept most of Romney's policies, and expanded upon them...

So yes, the 85% liberal legislature was successful in overriding his vetos and defeating several pieces of legislature that Romney proposed... but his efforts to bring people together and work with that legislature got enough signatures to pass significant pieces of legislature...

Imagine if he is able to run the country when he has control of at least 1 of the houses of Congress... given what he did with the opposition of an 85% liberal legislature...

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My guess is that his favorability rating as Pres. would be the same as he had in Mass. after 3 years, somewhere in the mid 30's. He could not have been re-elected Gov. even if he wanted to. The voters of Mass. are rejecting him in droves for President also. Why do they have such bad feelings about his leadership?

iguanaman said:

My guess is that his favorability rating as Pres. would be the same as he had in Mass. after 3 years, somewhere in the mid 30's. He could not have been re-elected Gov. even if he wanted to. The voters of Mass. are rejecting him in droves for President also. Why do they have such bad feelings about his leadership?

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The voters in MA are 70% liberal... So it's not shocking in anyway, that in the era of partisanship and hatred of Bush, that Romney was also unpopular in MA... and having favorability in the 30s... since the 70% of people were anti everything Republican...

The main critcism of Romney, though, which was echoed by conservatives at the time, too, was that he was focused nationally and not on MA... so your point that he was unpopular and would've have been re-elected was based on the perception, and realization that Romney had already decided he wasn't going to run himself... and had already begun touring the nation speaking of his accomplishments to bolster his case for the presidency in 2008...

Now, the other indication of how ridiculous your point is... in the last several presidential elections MA has gone to the Democrats by well over 20 pts... that good old RCP average that the liberals are clinging to has the gap in MA at 16pts... which shows that MA, finds Mitt Romney that much more able of a leader and serious of a candidate, than any of the Republicans in recent memory... and the gap that still exists just reflects the overall liberall nature of the state...

I could ask, if Obama is so great, why does no one outside of the Chicagoland area support Obama in IL? It's because that's the natural breakdown ideologically...

Gina said:

To the red, I gather you couldn't find any.

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:roll:

Meaningless.

Gina said:

I didn't use MTV or Youtube links.

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That's a non-reply.

You must be purposely ignoring the fact that it's your MTV/Youtube entertainment posting mechanism that's compelling you to post links here too rather than to address the points in detail in your own words.

It doesn't matter, of course, what the actual link-source is, MTV, Youtube, a libertarian website, a topically irrelevant Gallup, etc.

What matters is that you don't analyze for yourself, using your previous knoweldge of the topic, to present in detail, in your own words.

You simply link to something, and expect it to do your talking.

That's fine for the entertainment forum.

It fails miserably here in so many respects .. especially so when your links don't at all accurately address the points.

Gina said:

I used Pew and Gallup, eliminating the Reason-Rupe, those are two venerable polling institutions.

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Here you over-focus on form and error grossly on substance.

It doesn't matter what the source is, what matters is that the questions that created the poll were created to and actually function as an accurate indicator of what you're saying they do ..

.. And the ones you reference ludicrously do not.

So you end up looking amateurish to those who really know the topic.

Gina said:

I have posted my own thoughts and opinions at length,

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No you haven't. Don't make me laugh. You've simply made a terse statement that was in obvious error, and then posted some obviously biased link or irrelevant poll and said "that proves it". :lol:

When I presented logical, rational political science refutation to your assertion, in detail, you didn't respond specifically at all to that, ignoring it, and again did your knee-jerk "post a link" response, again saying, "there, that settles it".

Posting a link is not "at length".

It's a dodge.

Gina said:

posting links to back up my assertions

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Your links didn't backup your assertions, they revealed the biased error in your assertions the first time, and the second time you posted references to something that was not intended at all to show political spectrum breakdowns but was designed to function for other purposes.

Your links didn't function at all to back your assertions, and at best revealed the bias and irrelevancy of your assertions.

But, you did post links, which, instead of presenting what's in your own brain at length and having a real discussion, you kind of are compelled to do by force of habit in the entertainment forum.

Gina said:

and asked you to substantiate yours

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No, you implied that you wanted me to not present commonly known political science from my own brain, but to play "link wars" games with you.

That's not debate.

If you truly don't grasp the nature of the political spectrum, if you're weak on political science understanding, okay, that's fine.

Just don't expect others to comply in having to teach you a class on the topic by finding all sorts of links about obvious realities to "textbook" an education for you.

Gina said:

beyond a blog post that supports your point of view. You have been unable to do so.

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Notice how you go about defining the rules of debate, and if others don't play in your sandbox, they have thus failed to make their point. :roll:

Yet you can create this debate paradigm of yours, this link-wars game, and play it, not posting from your own brain your own opinion and at length in detail the way its normally done in an exchange of minds in debate, and never look at yourself as maybe being the one who has been unable to make her point.

Gina said:

Unless you have more than put downs and dodging,

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You mean, like you just got through doing?!

Gina said:

actual data would be welcome,

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Actual personal perspective reflecting your own knowledge of political science in detail and at length would really be welcome from you, in your own words, in sentences and paragraphs, which is what most people contributing to an intelligent discussion do.

Those who don't possess that knowledge compulsively post erroneous and irrelevant links.

Gina said:

I think you're out of gas.

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And I think you're projecting.

The truth of the matter is likely that, other than what you've been fed by your political philosophy/party and the like, you lack a real understanding of political dynamics ..

.. As otherwise you might have responded to the part I posted that defined a centrist, the freedom v. security, liberty v. justice, dynamic, on social and economic-fiscal issues, that truly identifies the labeled areas of the political spectrum.

My hunch is you were out of gas for much of a long trip from the get-go ..

.. And all you really wanted to do was divert attention from the fact that the liberal candidate Obama -- "liberal" being what it says beneath your avatar -- is race-baiting and trying to greatly reduce wage-scales in America, things that are killing our country.

The initial blog presented the truth of what Obama is doing and why Romney is the lesser of two evils, the best choice to vote for in November. The OP link was nothing more than a concurrence reference, and it did it's job to provide a lead-in for the thread.

Yet complain about it as if it's supposed to be some poll authority when it was never intended to be that but was merely a reference to the recent new articles about Obama's anti-American behavior that we all have already read in newspapers and on the internet.

Yet you criticize the OP link because it's not one of your biased or irrelevant links in your limited paradigm.

'Tis sad.

poweRob said:

Third parties are no more irrelevant than the 2nd party.

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The two main parties are running neck-and-neck, way, way out in front of "third" place.

Thus the "third" parties are an irrelvant waste of votes.

If a relative handful of people want to give these parties their votes, taking votes away from their "kinfolk" main party, that won't at all make these third parties relevant.

But if you think "relevant" means "taking votes from a third party's "kinfolk" main party sufficent to cost that "kinfolk" party the election", well, okay, but that's really self-defeating, as Perot voters in 1992 and Green voters in 2000 learned the painful hard way.

You can perhaps work with others to create relevance where none really exists, but at the price of being self-defeating.

That's not a good exchange.

Better is to accept the irrelevance that's intrinsic rather than to cut off your nose to spite your face by attempting to manufacture inappropriate relevance.

Q. Who created RomneyCare?

A. The guy I can't vote for, even if I hold my nose.

Ontologuy said:

:roll:

Meaningless.

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Yes, your reply was as it lacked any data beyond your own opinion and that of a blogger. You can assert whatever you would like, but it is baseless without data and as you said earlier, anyone can post a poll to support their conclusions, you have failed again to prove it.

Ontologuy said:

You do not offer "empirical data", you merely offer erroneous examles that simply do not reflect centrists at all, but merely support the inaccurate stance of liberals and conservatives that the political spectrum belongs solely to them. :roll:

Anyone can post graphics. The challenge is to post graphics that are meaningful, that do not originate from a limited and biased questionaire.

I could tell from the beginning of your posts in this thread that your tack was to simply trot out meaningless biased graphics and then egotistically say "look at what I did!".

:roll:

Meaningless.

Reality remains that the great majority of Americans are centrists, as only centrists relate to the list of tenets I previously presented and they don't relate to liberal, conservative and extremist third parties.

That's substance, and your graphs of mere form based on erroneous perspective are powerless to refute substance.

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I thought it was pretty obvious. You seem to be the only one standing in defiance.

Furthermore, your brand of centrism, and it is a brand of centrism, is merely your own propositions. All I see of you is some mythical force of the center that will become its own political Party. How that is to be accomplished is beyond you, as you can barely comprehend that people in the center disagree with you about policy, let alone figure out how a 3rd Party, unless by way of a break from within one major political Party (a la Roosevelt), will accomplish what other 3rd Parties couldn't do.

Gina said:

Yes, your reply was as it lacked any data beyond your own opinion and that of a blogger. You can assert whatever you would like, but it is baseless without data and as you said earlier, anyone can post a poll to support their conclusions, you have failed again to prove it.

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Clearly you don't want to present your own knowledge, as you fear it is lacking in substance, so you set up your "link to it" paradigm game, in which you link to biased and irrelevant things and then declare "game over" because the person in debate with you is beyond "introduction to politics" in education and knowledge.

:roll:

The reality remains, as all the papers and news sites presented, that Obama is race-baiting and attempting to win the election so he can plummet wage-scales across the nation by legalizing 20 million illegals, part of his Multi-Cultural Internationalist agenda to create a one-world government at the expense of dismantling America.

Yes, you continue to dodge and avoid the key issue of this thread.

And, when presented with the tenets of the centrist perspective, you respond only with "see, look what I linked to".

Again, this isn't the entertainment section.

You would probably be more comfortable there.

Fiddytree said:

I thought it was pretty obvious. You seem to be the only one standing in defiance. Furthermore, your brand of centrism, and it is a brand of centrism, is merely your own propositions. All I see of you is some mythical force of the center that will become its own political Party. How that is to be accomplished is beyond you, as you can barely comprehend that people in the center disagree with you about policy, let alone figure out how a 3rd Party, unless by way of a break from within one major political Party (a la Roosevelt), will accomplish what other 3rd Parties couldn't do.

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:roll:

3k1c7a5u9q11

Ontologuy said:

:roll:

3k1c7a5u9q11

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It probably helps to not let the cat run around on the keyboard.

Fiddytree said:

It probably helps to not let the cat run around on the keyboard.

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ontologuy said:

Clearly you don't want to present your own knowledge, as you fear it is lacking in substance, so you set up your "link to it" paradigm game, in which you link to biased and irrelevant things and then declare "game over" because the person in debate with you is beyond "introduction to politics" in education and knowledge.

:roll:

The reality remains, as all the papers and news sites presented, that Obama is race-baiting and attempting to win the election so he can plummet wage-scales across the nation by legalizing 20 million illegals, part of his Multi-Cultural Internationalist agenda to create a one-world government at the expense of dismantling America.

Yes, you continue to dodge and avoid the key issue of this thread.

And, when presented with the tenets of the centrist perspective, you respond only with "see, look what I linked to".

Again, this isn't the entertainment section.

You would probably be more comfortable there.

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No this isn't the entertainment section, hence my lack of youtube video and use of well established and respected polling companies rather than as you have done, used an obscure blog post as fact.

And as this is the presidential election section, I would suggest the bolded belongs in the conspiracy forum, where you might be more comfortable discussing one-world government.

:2wave:

Gina said:

No this isn't the entertainment section, hence my lack of youtube video and use of well established and respected polling companies rather than as you have done, used an obscure blog post as fact.

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You are clueless to the last .. at least so you feign.

Gina said:

And as this is the presidential election section, I would suggest the bolded belongs in the conspiracy forum, where you might be more comfortable discussing one-world government. :2wave:

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And you finally get to what was really bothering you, Ms. Liberal: Obama's race-baiting.

Now you can pretend to be irrational and deny he said what he said, his race-baiting the OP link accurately references ..

.. But to deny his also openly made speeches about dreaming of the day when there is just one world without national borders and his open admission to being a Multi-Cultural Internationalist complete with his support of illegals and off-shoring of American jobs and all ..

.. It's not a matter of a "hidden" conspiracy: Obama's right out there in the open about it! :shock:

The right thing to do for nose-holding centrists is to vote for Romney, the less stinkier of the two evils, as it's very clear Obama could care less about American citizens.

Ontologuy said:

You are clueless to the last .. at least so you feign.



And you finally get to what was really bothering you, Ms. Liberal: Obama's race-baiting.

Now you can pretend to be irrational and deny he said what he said, his race-baiting the OP link accurately references ..

.. But to deny his also openly made speeches about dreaming of the day when there is just one world without national borders and his open admission to being a Multi-Cultural Internationalist complete with his support of illegals and off-shoring of American jobs and all ..

.. It's not a matter of a "hidden" conspiracy: Obama's right out there in the open about it! :shock:

The right thing to do for nose-holding centrists is to vote for Romney, the less stinkier of the two evils, as it's very clear Obama could care less about American citizens.

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Absolutely incorrect as to what is bothering me. In fact, I'm not bothered in the least. LOL I'm amused at your dodging and ridiculous antics.

Gina said:

Absolutely incorrect as to what is bothering me. In fact, I'm not bothered in the least. LOL I'm amused at your dodging and ridiculous antics.

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Your phrase "dodgings and ridiculous antics" is pure projection on your part, Gina.

You won't respond with intelligent words in detailed analysis to the accurate presentation I made of what is the true definition of centrist from a political science perspective, regarding liberty and justice for all in dynamic balance, and instead you just keep dodging the question ..

.. You knee-jerk respond instead by posting first an obviously biased libertarian link and then a ludicrously irrelevant link, neither that responded to the valid point I made but that you did because "posting a link to something" is what people "do" in the entertainment forum where you spend most of your time, so rather then post in your own words your knowledge of political science, you respond by posting meaningless links, saying "it's all settled now", a ridiculous antic ..

.. When I reference the recently revealed off-the-record interview Obama gave that was finally brought to the public, that was in all the newspapers and internet news feeds last week, the one where Obama race-baited by saying "Romney doesn't care about Hispanics" because he doesn't want to legalize the 20 million illegals in America, a quarter of whom are non-Hispanic, and where Obama said "Hispanics are the fastest growing demographic in America", etc., clearly making it all about race and saying that because Romney's white he doesn't care about the Hispanic race .. all the race-baiting that's now on the record for the entire country to see what Obama did .. .. you just pull the ridiculous antic of saying "that's a conspiracy theory", your ludicrous dodge ...

... Yet when I call you on all that and ask for an intelligent response to the points I made, a response in your own words in detail showcasing your own knowledge of political science and news facts and all, instead of providing that which is rationally commensurate with political discussion, you accuse me of "dodgings and ridiculous antics"???

:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's obvious and pure projection on your part, Gina.

Reality remains, that the great majority of Americans, by appropriate accurate political science definition are centrists .. that Obama, a liberal is race-baiting, an egregious act for a sitting President to do .. that Obama's Multi-Cultural internationalist ideology is compelling him to say and do things that are killing America all in the name of his idealized one-world borderless world government .. that his compulsive desire to see everyone in the world earning the same wage-scale, which thus requires Americans to go into wage-slave status to achieve .. that the jobs lost in the first year of his watch were living-wage jobs and the job added in the last three years of his watch were predominantly low and poverty-level jobs .. that unemployment stands at 14.1 percent, the true unemployment rate .. and that when it comes to making a voting choice between the candidates of the two leading parties, one of whom will be President, neither of whom resonate with the great majority of Americans ..

.. The right thing by all American citizens to do is for centrists to hold their nose and vote for Romney, so that the worse stench of Obama's policies that are killing America can finally be eliminated from political power and tossed onto the garbage heap where they belong.

I'm voting for Romney because I want to. I live in NH and had a lot of choices in our primary. I voted Romney because he was the right one. I'm proudly voting for him next week.

McCain I held my nose for. Romney, no.

tres borrachos said:

I'm voting for Romney because I want to. I live in NH and had a lot of choices in our primary. I voted Romney because he was the right one. I'm proudly voting for him next week.

McCain I held my nose for. Romney, no.

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Anyone in your area yet suggest that Obama may delay the elections until the weather is better? I wouldn't be surprised if he did - in the interest of public safety of course.

tres borrachos said:

I'm voting for Romney because I want to. I live in NH and had a lot of choices in our primary. I voted Romney because he was the right one. I'm proudly voting for him next week.

McCain I held my nose for. Romney, no.

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Under your avatar it reads "conservative".

Thus it makes sense you'd be happier with Romney, as McCain had a libertarian streak .. and then there was Palin ...