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an Explanation of Bankruptcy

TurtleDude

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Apparently many Obama supporters-as demonstrated by the most Current advertisement by Obama in Ohio-do not have a clue about bankruptcy. Now I don't depend to be an expert on this subject but having handled a several million dollar plus bankruptcy matters I can explain to the ignorant that a bankruptcy does not mean the filer is going to disappear.

There are essentially two types of bankruptcies that a business can undertake. ONE IS A LIQUIDATION in which the business assets are liquidated and the creditors-based on priorities-are paid with the proceeds of the liquidation. This is commonly called Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

THE OTHER IS A REORGANIZATION. MANY of the airlines you may have flown on have gone or are going through a reorganization managed by a federal bankruptcy Court. The idiots in the Obama ad who whine that Romney wanted the failing car makers to go through bankruptcy are lying when they claimed that this meant Romney wanted those businesses to cease to exist. He was suggesting a CHAPTER 11 bankruptcy
 
You make a good point: Re-org (11) isn't liquidation (7), and is quite common.
Companies in only minor distress have even used it pro-actively/offensively to break union contracts, pension obligations, or 'off' creditors.
But in 2008's economic situation the two were tantamount. There were no operating/interim funds, only the Gov't.

Fact check: Obama, Romney trade charges over federal auto bailout - latimes.com
By Jim Puzzanghera
October 22, 2012, 8:40 p.m.


"....“You were very clear that you would not provide government assistance to the U.S. auto companies even if they went through bankruptcy,” Obama said. “You said that they could get it in the private marketplace. That wasn't true.”

The bipartisan Congressional Oversight Panel, the government-appointed watchdog for the $700-billion Troubled Asset Relief Program, backs Obama on this. It said in a January 2011 report that private financing was not available for General Motors and Chrysler in late 2008. The panel said “the circumstances in the global credit markets in November and December 2008 were unlike any the financial markets had seen in decades. U.S. domestic credit markets were frozen in the wake of the Lehman bankruptcy, and international sources of funding were extremely limited.”

Steven Rattner, a former Wall Street executive who headed Obama’s auto task force, has been outspoken that private financing was not available for General Motors and Chrysler. “In late 2008 and early 2009, when GM and Chrysler had exhausted their liquidity, every scrap of private capital had fled to the sidelines,” Rattner wrote in the New York Times in February.

Without government financinginitiated by President George W. Bush in December 2008the two companies would not have been able to pursue Chapter 11 reorganization.
Instead they would have been forced to cease production, close their doors and lay off virtually all workers once their coffers ran dry,” Rattner said.

During the Republican primaries in February, former GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said his company needed government money to survive. He told the Detroit Free Press that the bailouts were a “necessary government intervention.” “The banks were even more broke than we were,” Lutz said of the nation’s financial condition in late 2008. “Who had the money?"
 
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Apparently many Obama supporters-as demonstrated by the most Current advertisement by Obama in Ohio-do not have a clue about bankruptcy. Now I don't depend to be an expert on this subject but having handled a several million dollar plus bankruptcy matters I can explain to the ignorant that a bankruptcy does not mean the filer is going to disappear.

There are essentially two types of bankruptcies that a business can undertake. ONE IS A LIQUIDATION in which the business assets are liquidated and the creditors-based on priorities-are paid with the proceeds of the liquidation. This is commonly called Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

THE OTHER IS A REORGANIZATION. MANY of the airlines you may have flown on have gone or are going through a reorganization managed by a federal bankruptcy Court. The idiots in the Obama ad who whine that Romney wanted the failing car makers to go through bankruptcy are lying when they claimed that this meant Romney wanted those businesses to cease to exist. He was suggesting a CHAPTER 11 bankruptcy

I started a thread earlier today with a copy of the Op-Ed piece Romney wrote that started this nonsense. It is abundantly clear that he valued General Motors and had no intention of letting them fail:

IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed. Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers
.
But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost. The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk. In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

Just one more thing that Romney has been vilified for -- that is totally a bunch of lies.
 
Rightwing Meme Alert!

Reorganization can only happen if there is sufficient operating funds to pay off creditors over a period of time. Everybody agrees that GM lacked such funds, and had no access to private capital. Therefore, it would have had to sell off its assets. Romney was lying last night when he said otherwise. The OP is part of the GOP noise machine.

Why do you conservatives constantly have to make up history.

This is central to the election debate over the bailout. Mitt Romney claims that if GM and Chrysler Group had gone through a privately-financed bankruptcy process, they would have emerged even stronger than they are today.

But many auto industry experts, including the Obama administration's former car czar, Steven Rattner, a Democrat, and former GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz, a Republican, say there was no private-sector financing available in 2009 and the bailout was the only way to keep the companies alive.

"He thinks we didn't try to borrow money from the banks?" Lutz told the Detroit Free Press in February. "The banks were even more broke than we were. Who had the money?"

Without financing during bankruptcy, GM and Chrysler would have had to go out of business, taking down many suppliers. That would have likely caused bankruptcies at the healthier automakers such Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500), who would not have been able to get the parts they needed to build cars. That is why Ford went to Capitol Hill in late 2008 pushing for the rescue of its rivals.

The Center for Automotive Research, a well-respected Michigan think tank estimates that the bailout therefore saved 1.5 million U.S. jobs by keeping GM, Chrysler and the companies that depended on them in business.

Even if one assumes private financing could have been found, what's clear from Romney's own criticism of the bailout is that the autoworkers at GM and Chrysler today would have been far worse off today than they were with the bailout.

3 answers to the auto bailout debate - Sep. 6, 2012
 
I started a thread earlier today with a copy of the Op-Ed piece Romney wrote that started this nonsense. It is abundantly clear that he valued General Motors and had no intention of letting them fail:

Just one more thing that Romney has been vilified for -- that is totally a bunch of lies.
It would be more in the spirit of 'DebatePolitcs' if you could answer Me Instead of partisanly 'skip-posting'/cheerleading/re-pasting your ganda over the top of a reply that made a point that made your post moot.
 
Rightwing Meme Alert!

Reorganization can only happen if there is sufficient operating funds to pay off creditors over a period of time. Everybody agrees that GM lacked such funds, and had no access to private capital. Therefore, it would have had to sell off its assets. Romney was lying last night when he said otherwise. The OP is part of the GOP noise machine.

You shouldn't speak so authortatively on matters you obviously have no knowledge of. In a reorganization, the Master (the bankruptcy judge) may reduce the amount owed and to whom, may cap the final total payout (giving all creditors a percentage), may even forgive certain debts.
 
It would be more in the spirit of 'DebatePolitcs' if you could answer Me Instead of partisanly 'skip-posting'/cheerleading/re-pasting your ganda over the top of a reply that made a point that made your post moot.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Really. It would appear that somehow you think I insulted you by posting to the OP. That surely wasn't my intention. If you'll be clearly what I did that was wrong, I will most assuredly apologize. I always thought more information was better than less, and thought what I posted was relevant. Am I wrong?

Edit: Why was my post moot?
 
You shouldn't speak so authortatively on matters you obviously have no knowledge of. In a reorganization, the Master (the bankruptcy judge) may reduce the amount owed and to whom, may cap the final total payout (giving all creditors a percentage), may even forgive certain debts.

He may and the creditors may object if the payment is reduced too much or takes too long to pa, and then the judge or the trustee orders the selling off of the assets.

And that was the facts of the GM bankruptcy. Everybody but rightwing posters on internet forums agrees on that. By the way I'm an attorney so in fact I do know a thing or two about bankruptcy law. But I do love it when tea partiers pretend to know stuff.
 
I don't know---I would expect that Romney would have a better idea than most what capital is or is not available to a struggling company as that was sort of his stock and trade (of course the left likes to leave out the "struggling" part when they speak of Romney's business affairs, preferring instead to make them seem like the greatest employers ever raided by evil Mitt)
 
I have no idea what you're talking about. Really. It would appear that somehow you think I insulted you by posting to the OP. That surely wasn't my intention. If you'll be clearly what I did that was wrong, I will most assuredly apologize. I always thought more information was better than less, and thought what I posted was relevant. Am I wrong?
Kinda, but you are always good-spirited/well-intentioned as above, so let ME apologize and leave it at that.
yours,
mbig
 
He may and the creditors may object if the payment is reduced too much or takes too long to pa, and then the judge or the trustee orders the selling off of the assets.

And that was the facts of the GM bankruptcy. Everybody but rightwing posters on internet forums agrees on that. By the way I'm an attorney so in fact I do know a thing or two about bankruptcy law. But I do love it when tea partiers pretend to know stuff.

Then you should have known that and a lay person should not have to have reminded you. Instead, you lied through deliberate omission, I understand, it suits your bias and your posting style thus far here. Still, no excuse and you do your positions and those who share them no favors by doing so.

And if you believe I'm a tea partier, you're just as ignorant as you come off here.
 
Rightwing Meme Alert!

Reorganization can only happen if there is sufficient operating funds to pay off creditors over a period of time. Everybody agrees that GM lacked such funds, and had no access to private capital. Therefore, it would have had to sell off its assets. Romney was lying last night when he said otherwise. The OP is part of the GOP noise machine.

Why do you conservatives constantly have to make up history.



3 answers to the auto bailout debate - Sep. 6, 2012

Not quite.

A reorganization would have allowed them to make changes to the pension program which was the big liability on the books but the unions didn't want that and, with their guy in the WH, they pushed through this "bailout" which screwed the bond holders.
 
Facts matter, but not to conservatives and their memes.

Fact check: Obama, Romney trade charges over federal auto bailout - latimes.com

The bipartisan Congressional Oversight Panel, the government-appointed watchdog for the $700-billion Troubled Asset Relief Program, backs Obama on this. It said in a January 2011 report that private financing was not available for General Motors and Chrysler in late 2008.

The panel said “the circumstances in the global credit markets in November and December 2008 were unlike any the financial markets had seen in decades. U.S. domestic credit markets were frozen in the wake of the Lehman bankruptcy, and international sources of funding were extremely limited.”

Steven Rattner, a former Wall Street executive who headed Obama’s auto task force, has been outspoken that private financing was not available for General Motors and Chrysler.

“In late 2008 and early 2009, when GM and Chrysler had exhausted their liquidity, every scrap of private capital had fled to the sidelines,” Rattner wrote in the New York Times in February.
 
Not quite.

A reorganization would have allowed them to make changes to the pension program which was the big liability on the books but the unions didn't want that and, with their guy in the WH, they pushed through this "bailout" which screwed the bond holders.

Psssst: Facts matter

The bipartisan Congressional Oversight Panel, the government-appointed watchdog for the $700-billion Troubled Asset Relief Program, backs Obama on this. It said in a January 2011 report that private financing was not available for General Motors and Chrysler in late 2008.

The panel said “the circumstances in the global credit markets in November and December 2008 were unlike any the financial markets had seen in decades. U.S. domestic credit markets were frozen in the wake of the Lehman bankruptcy, and international sources of funding were extremely limited.”

Steven Rattner, a former Wall Street executive who headed Obama’s auto task force, has been outspoken that private financing was not available for General Motors and Chrysler.

“In late 2008 and early 2009, when GM and Chrysler had exhausted their liquidity, every scrap of private capital had fled to the sidelines,” Rattner wrote in the New York Times in February.

Fact check: Obama, Romney trade charges over federal auto bailout - latimes.com

http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/02/17/why-the-right-is-wrong-about-saving-detroit/184668
 
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By the way, in Romney's notorious OP-ED piece calling for GM's bankruptcy, he called for government guaranties. The OP forgot to mention that. Funny;

Hypocrite conservative.

it turns out that Romney DID in that original Op-Ed, at the very end, say that there should be post-bankruptcy guarantees for financing.
“The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk,” he wrote.
Presidential Debate: Fact Check and Live Blog - ABC News
 
By the way, in Romney's notorious OP-ED piece calling for GM's bankruptcy, he called for government guaranties. The OP forgot to mention that. Funny;

Hypocrite conservative.


Presidential Debate: Fact Check and Live Blog - ABC News

Which kind of punctures the entire "he wanted them to dissapear" meme now doesnt it.

He wanted them to file reorg papers, then get government guarantees to fund the re-org. Im guessing as a bond or loan measure rather than what occurred.
 
He may and the creditors may object if the payment is reduced too much or takes too long to pa, and then the judge or the trustee orders the selling off of the assets.

And that was the facts of the GM bankruptcy. Everybody but rightwing posters on internet forums agrees on that. By the way I'm an attorney so in fact I do know a thing or two about bankruptcy law. But I do love it when tea partiers pretend to know stuff.

...but you left out the part about their stock being cancelled and new stock being eventually sold to fund the reorganization once the plan would be accepted and the part where their current contracts, specifically their union contracts, being voided requiring the UAW to renegotiate at likely lower wage and benefits, and failed to distinguish between different types of secured and unsecured creditors with the unsecured creditors having virtually no say in anything whatsoever.
 
OUCH!

Why The Right Is Wrong About Saving Detroit | Research | Media Matters for America

FACT: Economic Experts At The Time Said Private Financing For Auto Bankruptcies Was Impossible

Moody's Chief Economist Mark Zandi: Because Of "Credit Crunch," Private Bankruptcy Financing "Would Be All But Impossible To Get." In 2008, Moody's economist Mark Zandi explained why the federal government needed to provide financial help to prevent liquidation of U.S. automakers:


Paul Krugman: Chapter 11 "Would Mean Wiping Out Probably Well Over A Million Jobs." In 2008, Nobel laureate and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman wrote:


Dean Baker: "No One Would Have Stepped Forward To Provide Credit To Operate Through Bankruptcy Without A Government Guarantee." Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, wrote:


Jonathan Cohn: "The Same Wall Street Meltdown That Has Dragged Down The Economy And GM Sales Has Also Dried Up The ... Money GM Would Need To Operate." Jonathan Cohn, senior editor at The New Republic, reported:


Center For Automotive Research Chief Economist: "Private Bankruptcy For Automakers Would Not Have Been Possible ... Because Credit Markets Were Frozen." Reuters reported that supporters of GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney "point out that airlines and other large businesses have been able to reorganize in bankruptcy without government help." Reuters continued:

The Economist: "The Credit Markets Were Bone-Dry, Making The Privately Financed Bankruptcy ... Improbable." Robert McShane, The Economist online U.S. editor, wrote:

Read the whole link and laugh at the OP talking point
 
...but you left out the part about their stock being cancelled and new stock being eventually sold to fund the reorganization once the plan would be accepted and the part where their current contracts, specifically their union contracts, being voided requiring the UAW to renegotiate at likely lower wage and benefits, and failed to distinguish between different types of secured and unsecured creditors with the unsecured creditors having virtually no say in anything whatsoever.

I didn't leave anything out. I merely pointed out that the OP is a rightwing talking point and doesn't understand bankruptcy law or the facts.
 
I started a thread earlier today with a copy of the Op-Ed piece Romney wrote that started this nonsense. It is abundantly clear that he valued General Motors and had no intention of letting them fail:



Just one more thing that Romney has been vilified for -- that is totally a bunch of lies.

What about the fact that without Govt. money there was no money available for "restructuring". Either Romney was woefully uninformed or he was talking about Chapter 7 liquidation. Why else would Govt. guarantees for customer warranties be required?
 
Which kind of punctures the entire "he wanted them to dissapear" meme now doesnt it.

He wanted them to file reorg papers, then get government guarantees to fund the re-org. Im guessing as a bond or loan measure rather than what occurred.

Well it punctures his claim about not wanting to use taxpayer dollars. Using government guaranties does use taxpayer dollars as a surety.

But regardless, nobody who knows anything thinks that there was sufficient private capital for a reorg. Period. Obama did the right thing.
 
Then you should have known that and a lay person should not have to have reminded you. Instead, you lied through deliberate omission, I understand, it suits your bias and your posting style thus far here. Still, no excuse and you do your positions and those who share them no favors by doing so.

And if you believe I'm a tea partier, you're just as ignorant as you come off here.

The sound of a conservative losing another argument and reduced to personal attacks.

NEXT!
 

You'll pardon me if I don't laugh, won't you? Don Sutherland, one of the most (if not THE most) respected posters on Debate Politics said this:

Maggie,

The op-ed makes clear that Romney wanted Detroit to survive (and saw Detroit as "vital" to the nation's economy) and offered a well-reasoned plan. His point about structured bankruptcy as a mechanism for achieving necessary restructuring was spot-on. However, Adam is right about the state of the credit markets at the time. They had broken down. Even blue-chip corporations such as GE had to use the Fed's corporate paper facility, as they were unable to raise funds on their own. In that environment, it is not likely that government guarantees would have induced the private sector to provide funding for GM or Chrysler.

Having said that, given his past work in business and his pragmatic approach to governing in Massachusetts, I believe Romney would ultimately have agreed to direct government financing once convinced that neither GM nor Chrysler could raise private funds even with government guarantees. However, that would have been a last resort so to speak. His campaign comments that he would not have allowed Detroit to fail suggests that he would likely have pursued additional measures. However, he still believes that had his approach been pursued early on, direct government intervention would have been unnecessary.

You'll excuse those of us who put more faith in a less partisan view, won't you? Take off your partisan sunglasses and learn, Joaquin.

Edit: I'm NEXT, Joaquin. Read and take off your partisan shades.
 
What about the fact that without Govt. money there was no money available for "restructuring". Either Romney was woefully uninformed or he was talking about Chapter 7 liquidation. Why else would Govt. guarantees for customer warranties be required?

Typically the current stock gets voided and reissued which sends money flowing into the company's accounts via the trustee to fund the plan. I am sure if people had the opportunity to buy new GM stock, they would.
 
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