HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF 14%

MaggieD · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

AdamT said:
Sorry, dear, but I'm not posting my tax returns on the internet. If you don't think it's a big deal, why don't you scan yours off and post them up to prove that you DIDN'T pay a higher rate than Romney?

If you really can't believe it then you aren't being particularly rational. On average, the top quintile (20%) of taxpayers paid a higher rate (17.9%) than Romney (14%) in 2011. The top 10% paid a higher rate still (20%), the top 5% paid at an even higher rate (21.9%) and the top 1% higher yet (24.6%). So, on average, people in Romney's income group paid at a rate better than 10% higher than Romney paid. These are facts which you can peruse on Page 12 of the CBO's report: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/57xx/doc5746/08-13-effectivefedtaxrates.pdf

One caveat: the report was published in 2004 so the numbers are obviously projected. But tax rates have not changed in the interim.

This thread is about people making $50,000 a year.

MaggieD · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

whysoserious said:
I did not have the same job then. I was one of those leeches who was in college not paying taxes! Damn this leech and his getting a higher education so that he could eventually earn a better salary!

We are bastards you know. Always voting liberal because we don't want to work for anything or take responsibility for our own lives.

THAT explains it. Don't worry, in 15 years you'll be a conservative. :rofl

Verax · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

According to Politifact the claim is half true.

PolitiFact | Barack Obama says most Americans pay a higher tax rate than Mitt Romney

The bottom line is its pretty close and depending on how you look at it, it can go either way. From a technical standpoint you can cry about this ad "lying", however from a practical standpoint it is a reasonable argument that points out how ridiculous our taxation system is in the U.S.

The ultra wealthy paying an effective tax rate that is even close to that of the average American is a shame.

AdamT · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

MaggieD said:
This thread is about people making $50,000 a year.

You could strip your transmission throwing it into reverse like that.

We've already addressed the $50k group, which falls between the middle quintile and the next lowest quintile. The bottom line is that the claim was accurate if you include payroll taxes, but not if you restrict it to income taxes.

That's because payroll taxes amount to about a 9.5% tax on middle income people, versus about 1.5% on the top 1%.

melons · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

Verax said:
According to Politifact the claim is half true.

PolitiFact | Barack Obama says most Americans pay a higher tax rate than Mitt Romney

The bottom line is its pretty close and depending on how you look at it, it can go either way. From a technical standpoint you can cry about this ad "lying", however from a practical standpoint it is a reasonable argument that points out how ridiculous our taxation system is in the U.S.

The ultra wealthy paying an effective tax rate that is even close to that of the average American is a shame.

But why is it not reasonable that we all pay the same percentage? You make $40,000 you pay say $4,000 - or - you make $300,000 and you pay $30,000. I used ten percent as an example, I am not promoting it, BTW. But if you all pay the same percentage then effectively the poor pay less and the rich pay more. I don't understand why this isn't fair.

MaggieD · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

AdamT said:
You could strip your transmission throwing it into reverse like that.

We've already addressed the $50k group, which falls between the middle quintile and the next lowest quintile. The bottom line is that the claim was accurate if you include payroll taxes, but not if you restrict it to income taxes.

That's because payroll taxes amount to about a 9.5% tax on middle income people, versus about 1.5% on the top 1%.

The claim is not accurate. People who pay FICA, which is the only way a $50K earner gets even close to 14%, are paying into a retirement plan. Tom will get back every dime he put into Social Security in three-and-a-half years. Payroll taxes do not amount to 9.5% on $50,000. 6.2% FICA, 1.45% Medicare = 7.65%. Payroll tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MaggieD · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

melons said:
But why is it not reasonable that we all pay the same percentage? You make $40,000 you pay say $4,000 - or - you make $300,000 and you pay $30,000. I used ten percent as an example, I am not promoting it, BTW. But if you all pay the same percentage then effectively the poor pay less and the rich pay more. I don't understand why this isn't fair.

The poor pay less in dollars, but it represents a larger burden on them.

wolfman24 · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

My dad was a life insurance agent for most of his life and taught us not to think in those terms. What I report on my 1040 is after the fact. What counts is what comes out of my paycheck. and the scale for that is published by the IRS.

Verax · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

melons said:
But why is it not reasonable that we all pay the same percentage? You make $40,000 you pay say $4,000 - or - you make $300,000 and you pay $30,000. I used ten percent as an example, I am not promoting it, BTW. But if you all pay the same percentage then effectively the poor pay less and the rich pay more. I don't understand why this isn't fair.

Capitalism is not a perfect system. It has a major flaw in that it over compensates those at the top and under compensates those at the bottom. That is a price we pay for using a system that works extremely well in many other ways. To combat this you have to rig the system in the other direction using various means, one of them is a progressive tax scale. The father of Capitalism Adam Smith advocated for this.

AdamT · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

melons said:
But why is it not reasonable that we all pay the same percentage? You make $40,000 you pay say $4,000 - or - you make $300,000 and you pay $30,000. I used ten percent as an example, I am not promoting it, BTW. But if you all pay the same percentage then effectively the poor pay less and the rich pay more. I don't understand why this isn't fair.

Here's why: the actual figure would be closer to 20%. So your average working class family, which presently pays about 3.3% FIT on average would see a tax hike of roughly 600%. The reason our economy is recovering so slowly is basically down to weak consumer demand. How do you think it would affect consumer demand if you raised middle class taxes 600%? If you answered, "it would crush consumer demand" then you are correct.

whysoserious · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

MaggieD said:
THAT explains it. Don't worry, in 15 years you'll be a conservative. :rofl

Not unless conservatives in 15 years don't promise ridiculous things like balancing a budget while lowering taxes but not cutting anything (and possibly spending more?).

Not to mention the lies. I can't deal with that. How can anyone watch Romney debate, know what he is saying is mostly full of ****, and still want to vote for him?

MaggieD · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

whysoserious said:
Not unless conservatives in 15 years don't promise ridiculous things like balancing a budget while lowering taxes but not cutting anything (and possibly spending more?).

Not to mention the lies. I can't deal with that. How can anyone watch Romney debate, know what he is saying is mostly full of ****, and still want to vote for him?

You'll get it in 15 years. And Romney never said those things, by the way, but that's a complete thread derail.

melons · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

MaggieD said:
The poor pay less in dollars, but it represents a larger burden on them.

I can see that being true but in essence that is what our society does to the poor anyway. We don't sell them gas or milk for a cheaper price, even though they need it and it represents a larger burden on them. And we don't make the rich pay more for things even though it wouldn't really burden them if we did.

MaggieD · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

melons said:
I can see that being true but in essence that is what our society does to the poor anyway. We don't sell them gas or milk for a cheaper price, even though they need it and it represents a larger burden on them. And we don't make the rich pay more for things even though it wouldn't really burden them if we did.

We're talking about taxes, Melons, not the cost of bread and butter. "The poor" actually get money back in excess of any taxes they paid in to the Federal government. Suddenly asking them to pay would be an astronomical burden.

Born Free · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

MaggieD said:
No, it wouldn't increase Romney's. But one has to use that tax in order to get a $50K earner (or a $75K earner, for that matter) up to Romney's rate. He doesn't pay it. He doesn't receive it. I actually disagree that FICA is a tax -- it's an annuity, in my opinion -- a retirement fund. All that money people pay in? People start getting it back when they retire.

I always use my Tommy's SS statement as a reference. He receives $1800 a month. He will have all of the money he put into those "taxes" back in his pocket in about three-and-a-half years.

You explained it very well, as you put it FICA is money the individual and the employer put into an annuity for their future benefit. That money does not go into the general fund for governments use. Using the word "tax" is a total miss-characterization, it should be called "retirement contribution". The left always like to yell how the lower income earners pay taxes, meaning FICA is a tax, and it is not.

The supreme court completely miss-characterized a penalty for not buying insurance as a tax. That is BS, if you don't buy insurance you pay a penalty, no different than you get a speeding ticket you have to pay a penalty. Has anyone heard when you get a ticket you have to go pay a ticket tax, or a speeding tax.

LizardofOz · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

MaggieD said:
What makes you think you offended me? I've noticed when people run out of good arguments, they often use insults to cover their tracks. I don't blame you, John, you just ran out of things to say.

When you are calling my republican congressman a "congress clown", and believe that I'm going to march down the road with a torch over the intricacies of the tax system yeah you come off as offended. Also I said what needed said. Most taxes and fees other than our income tax is flat or regressive. I didn't run out of anything to say.

MaggieD · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

JohnWOlin said:
When you are calling my republican congressman a "congress clown", and believe that I'm going to march down the road with a torch over the intricacies of the tax system yeah you come off as offended. Also I said what needed said. Most taxes and fees other than our income tax is flat or regressive. I didn't run out of anything to say.

I call 'em all Congress Clowns. I have no faith in any of them as a body. I see why you thought that. Perhaps I should choose my modifiers my carefully.

AdamT · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

MaggieD said:
The claim is not accurate. People who pay FICA, which is the only way a $50K earner gets even close to 14%, are paying into a retirement plan. Tom will get back every dime he put into Social Security in three-and-a-half years. Payroll taxes do not amount to 9.5% on $50,000. 6.2% FICA, 1.45% Medicare = 7.65%. Payroll tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're right -- I was using older numbers that didn't account for Obama's payroll tax cut.

But I disagree that FICA is any kind of annuity. There is no direct connection between what you pay in and get out above a certain point (vesting). I could pay in my whole life and drop dead on my 60th birthday, for example. Or I could live to be 95, never see a doctor, and then drop dead of a heart attack.

FICA is like other taxes: we pay in and we get stuff in return, and there's really no precise way to correlate the two things, even if there's more of a correlation with FICA.

LizardofOz · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

cpwill said:
Goodness gracious. You sound like Mitt Romney .

:shrug: my uncle is a multi millionaire in Georgia. When you add up state, local, and federal, his total tax rate is about 50%. Please feel free to demonstrate to me a family making $50K facing a similar tax burden in the United States.

Isn't it interesting how the unionized folks on this board always assume that people are here to defend their masters?

looks suspiciously like projecting.

When did I say I was in a union? If your uncle is paying 50%, then how does Georgia and his local taxes work?

whysoserious · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

MaggieD said:
You'll get it in 15 years. And Romney never said those things, by the way, but that's a complete thread derail.

Really? Romney didn't put together a tax plan that is supposed to be balanced but by all accounts has been proven to not work? Romney hasn't really said any programs he is going to cut other than Obamacare and PBS?

What a guy. I would vote for him to. Not only is he going to give us the ****ing world, but we don't have to pay **** for it!

LOL

MaggieD · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

AdamT said:
You're right -- I was using older numbers that didn't account for Obama's payroll tax cut.

But I disagree that FICA is any kind of annuity. There is no direct connection between what you pay in and get out above a certain point (vesting). I could pay in my whole life and drop dead on my 60th birthday, for example. Or I could live to be 95, never see a doctor, and then drop dead of a heart attack.

FICA is like other taxes: we pay in and we get stuff in return, and there's really no precise way to correlate the two things, even if there's more of a correlation with FICA.

Adam! I see a slight shift in your posting. I'm glad.**

**An effort to find common ground. I like that.

As for dropping dead, that's true with most all pensions. For life, or until one dies.

melons · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

MaggieD said:
We're talking about taxes, Melons, not the cost of bread and butter. "The poor" actually get money back in excess of any taxes they paid in to the Federal government. Suddenly asking them to pay would be an astronomical burden.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just trying to understand why the one percentage for all theory wouldn't work. My point about the milk and gas was just a thought really, it wasn't really a point I was making toward you in any way. I certainly don't think we should lower the price of items for the poor or raise them for the rich. And I am not so sure that I agree taxes should be any different BUT I see the points that you and others make - and those make sense as well. So I guess I am talking on a topic that I am not very educated in, sorry. I was just trying to reason out the theory of a flat tax.

MaggieD · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

melons said:
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just trying to understand why the one percentage for all theory wouldn't work. My point about the milk and gas was just a thought really, it wasn't really a point I was making toward you in any way. I certainly don't think we should lower the price of items for the poor or raise them for the rich. And I am not so sure that I agree taxes should be any different BUT I see the points that you and others make - and those make sense as well. So I guess I am talking on a topic that I am not very educated in, sorry. I was just trying to reason out the theory of a flat tax.

Do not be sorry!!!!! You're doin' just fine. Trying to reason something out is the "reason" a lot of us are here. (And don't take what I say as "fact," either -- 'cause about half the time it isn't.

LizardofOz · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

TurtleDude said:
that post is indicative of the class warfare attitude that rich liberals use to gain more wealth by pandering to the basest emotions of the losers.

You have the attitude of someone out of touch with reality. Seriously, think about this--are you going to feel sorry for a rich old man or a poor old man that had to spend his life savings on medical bills? You may have more respect for the rich old man that's fine but if you are feeling sorry for him because you think he's taxed to much and could care less about the poor old man, you live within a reality distortion field.

Μολὼν λαβέ · Oct 14, 2012

Re: HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF

JohnWOlin said:
Regardless if it is true or not, when you defend the rich it still makes you sound like an asshole even most rich get that and for the record isn't there like not even 5 million millionaires in USA? Do you seriously think they need defending or better yet, that most of them even care if they are taxed like they were 14 years ago? Not only that as a percentage of their income, they usually pay less into state, local, social security and Medicare.

I'm not saying tax them to death. All I'm saying is make it reasonable like it was in the past and slowly phase out certain tax deductions for them as well as those for families like my own making around $50,000 along with making reasonable cuts to all parts of our government.

I always find it amusing when people censure those who have more and excoriate those who understand the workings of a free, capitalist society.

Please remember the USA was founded on principles of opportunity, not entitlement.

HOw many people making 50K a year are paying an EFFECTIVE FED INCOME TAX RATE OF 14%

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